Wright writes.....

[MJI]

AC electric sounds.

 

M&S freezer section.

 

As to variety, was loads even when everything was blue.

[Lecorbusier]

51 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 Any number of curvy concrete arches can't recreate that feeling.

 

 

 

Though they can in some instances be quite uplifting ....maybe?

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Knutsford station - 1 May 1967. Mum & dad went to see the Knutsford May Queen parade, I went to watch another parade !!!.  Note again the water crane and CLC lower quadrant semaphore signal. DMU passes a Northwich to Tunstead ICI hopper train - Class 25 hauled by then.

 

 

Brush 4 light engine - closer view of the signal box etc.

 

 

Loaded ICI hoppers to Northwich.

 

 

A nice afternoon - though no steam. Our railways were much more interesting back then.

 

Brit15

Wonderful pictures.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

As I recall, at Knutsford (Cranford, to Mrs Gaskell - one of the most boring books, for GCE exams, I've ever read!), there used to be a wonderful castle-like water tower. Long gone, I'd imagine, because I haven't travelled on the line for over 50 years!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

I think that we all have our preferences and favourites.

 

I don't have any problem with anybody expressing a preference or even saying that they are not keen or interested in something.

 

It only bothers me when somebody expresses opinion as fact.

 

"I find modern railways dull and boring therefore that is what they are."

 

A friend of mine is certain that there are only two sorts of music. The stuff he likes and rubbish.

 

I have never seen a modern station, anywhere in the world, that pleases my eyes as much as many a traditional one. I used to like the idea that you could tell where you were by the railway infrastructure without a train in sight. Any number of curvy concrete arches can't recreate that feeling.

 

I am quite happy to accept that other people like that sort of thing and would never dismiss it as being poor or bad just because I don't find it attractive. 

 

 

 

Hi

 

I fully agree with what you have written. Some of us even have mixed preferences sitting in front of me I have a photo of a Kirtley 890 class loco number 71 , sadly in LMS lined black livery not full blown MR crimson. I really like reading about the Midland Railway, yet I model the mid 1960s and find station buildings of the period like Harlow fascinating. 

 

I also agree with your freind, there is good music, the stuff I like and rubbish.....what is wrong with Mongolian heavy metal or Icelandic dark wave or Nepalese punk. While I am at it some Spanish power pop and Hungarian rockabilly. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

I think that we all have our preferences and favourites.

 

I don't have any problem with anybody expressing a preference or even saying that they are not keen or interested in something.

 

It only bothers me when somebody expresses opinion as fact.

 

"I find modern railways dull and boring therefore that is what they are."

 

A friend of mine is certain that there are only two sorts of music. The stuff he likes and rubbish.

 

I have never seen a modern station, anywhere in the world, that pleases my eyes as much as many a traditional one. I used to like the idea that you could tell where you were by the railway infrastructure without a train in sight. Any number of curvy concrete arches can't recreate that feeling.

 

I am quite happy to accept that other people like that sort of thing and would never dismiss it as being poor or bad just because I don't find it attractive. 

 

 

 

Do any posters on here express their opinions 'as fact', Tony? Do I?

 

I think it's fair to say that the majority of railway modellers tend to produce something from an earlier time, often reflecting their 'formative' years. A time, at least to them, when they found the railways much more-interesting than they are today. In many cases (yourself included?) they model scenes from their parents'/grandparents' time, because they find it more-interesting than the time of their own youth, and certainly more-interesting than today.

 

It's a fact that, at the frequently-mentioned Retford (not far from you), during the late-'50s/early-'60s, on any given Saturday or weekday in the summer holidays, the south/east end of Platform 1 would be packed with schoolboy trainspotters. More would be sitting or standing on 'the wall'. The railway at Retford (or anywhere) can't be as interesting to boys as it was; otherwise why aren't they crowded on the end of platforms now?

 

A few examples, if I may, please? 

 

 

DIAMOND JUBILEE departing Retford on an Up express at the end of March 1958 - over 60 years ago. This was probably a Saturday or in the Easter holidays. 

 

Though an exact viewpoint is impossible today, Up trains still depart from the same platform. Except there will be no trainspotters present (well, not boys!) today. 

 

 

60 years ago, this was the scene looking south from Grantham's Down main platform. OK, there's only one 'spectator' present, but just take in the variety of things to delight the eye. 

 

Less than a year ago, a similar view..................

 

 

 Though anything in the Up siding (not sidings now) can't be seen, I can tell you there was nothing to view on both sides of this departing Newark-Kings Cross express. Though far more efficient, the removal of all that fascinating trackwork, infrastructure and stock has left, at least to me, a far less-interesting railwayscape. Far less-interesting to boys as well, because, though this was taken in the summer holidays last year (and on a lovely day), not one lad was present 'copping' what was on offer.

 

 

Yet, near 60 years ago, the platforms would have been crowded with 'spotters. Why not now? Well, today, the shed roads which this A1 is standing beside are now covered in housing. There are no loco changes at Grantham today, and just a handful of different classes to see (there'll be fewer next year!). 

 

Is it not a fact then, that, today, our railways are not as interesting as they once were, at least to at least two/three generations of boys? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Is it not a fact then, that, today, our railways are not as interesting as they once were, at least to at least two/three generations of boys? 

 

My view is that it would be quite hard to argue otherwise .... however, of more interest to me is why? Is it because of the technology? ....perhaps but I'm not sure. I have a sneeking feeling it has more to do with the relative importance of railways in the various eras. If we enter a new railway golden age because of requirements to reduce carbon emmissions .... meaning that the network expands again, with more frequent services and more freight .... I wonder if it will become more interesting. French and Swiss railways certainly appear more interesting than UK ones at present and it could be argues that they do occupy a more pivotal role within those countries?

 

That being said, we will never have the sheer variety of the post war era again, and standardisation is going to be far greater than under the big 4 and earlier ... hey ho!

[grahame]

1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

 

Though they can in some instances be quite uplifting ....maybe?

 

Stunning and impressive design in those pics. Very uplifting - thanks for sharing. I also understand that the 'new' London Bridge station has recently received an architectural award although for me, despite being better (for passengers) than the 1970s makeover version, it lacks impact and interest for me.

 

G.

[Barry Ten]

My perception of the interesting-ness or otherwise of UK railways is probably biased by the bit of it I use most often, the SWML between Cardiff and Paddington, and a bit of the valleys lines.  I do this route once or twice a month all year and - other than the chance to spot a red kite or similar along the Thames Valley - it's quite dull, with nothing much in the way of interesting railway infrastructure until the recent developments in Reading and into London, and rarely any variety of trains. If you see a wagon in a siding, chances are the same wagon will still be there months later, quietly rusting. Whereas whenever I've travelled any distance in Europe, I seem to go past endless huge marshalling yards full of varied  freight stock, and with visible shunting going on, again with a much greater variation of motive power. The complexity of lines in and out of even modest European towns also seems more interesting, with fly-overs and so on. It all gets my modelling blood going...

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll still enjoy seeing any train go past in the UK (even the monotony of a 150 or Pacer on the line which I have to jog across on my regular 5K will be better than no train) but it's a far cry from the seeming delights of Germany, Switzerland etc. Rose-tinted glasses, perhaps.

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Barry Ten

[woodenhead]

The railways in some respects have never been busier but with standardisation the shear variety of what we had before the end of the 70s is long gone.

 

Freight trains are still all over our railways but the means to transport goods was revolutionised with ISO containers - it altered shipping, docks and the modes of transportation once on land.  Where once we had slow unfitted wagons we now have liner trains shifting effortlessly along high speed mainlines.

 

Gone are the regional express train designs, first replaced with standard Mk1 and Mk2 coaches but regional locos to HSTs - that the ECML got it's MK4s was probably a quirk and we now have the IEP and it's derivatives as the new standard express train.  A plethora of steam hauled local/commuter and regional trains were slowly replaced by a fleet of DMUs which were later replaced by the Sprinters and Pacers.   Unit trains have seen off the diverse loco needs of the country too leading to the end of stabling points and engine sheds in every key location.

 

Whilst privatisation  has introduced some local designs, fleet standardisation is still key to plans so if you stand in one spot for long enough you will eventually see the whole fleet and not much else in many places.

 

Today's trains are great for getting from A to B just as they have always been and for me that's enough, I don't see enough interest to make me want to stand on a platform end for very long these days.

[grahame]

I took this snap yesterday evening on my way to meet some friends in a pub: 

 

 

It's Surbiton station which is not only grade II listed but is considered to be one of the finest modernist stations in Britain. 

 

G

 

 

[Bucoops]

I've always loved Surbiton station, a total work of art.

[APOLLO]

Retford in between the years of Tony's pictures was (to me) interesting - just out of my OO modelling era though. There's even steam in the photo (leaking heating hose) !!

 

3 Jan 1970. D9011 & D1103 double head a southbound express, (which we had travelled behind from Doncaster). Then downstairs to the new Sheffield bound platforms, DMU to Sheffield, mad dash across town and E26057 Ulysses took us to Manchester on next to the last day of services over Woodhead.

 

 

Blue diesels with proper numbers !!

 

Brit15

Edited May 23, 2019 by APOLLO
Typo

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, grahame said:

I took this snap yesterday evening on my way to meet some friends in a pub: 

 

 

It's Surbiton station which is not only grade II listed but is considered to be one of the finest modernist stations in Britain. 

 

G

 

 

 

I think that far too many buildings are "listed". But I think  Surbiton should be at least 2* if not 1.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

In OO I model "The era that is rarely modelled" - 1965 -1968 - last days of steam, early blue diesels and a right mix of stock, 4 wheel non braked through to brand new 100 Ton tank wagons (9F hauled - yes it happened, I have a photo !!).

 

Again another Deltic & water crane - D9005 with an LNER one at Newcastle this time.  Lots of steam infrastructure, semaphore signals, complex track etc etc lasted well into the 70's - slowly disappearing over time. For me the rot really set in with the demise of Speedlink. Late 80's ?

 

 

Brit15

Speedlink went in 1991 according to Wiki which sounds right to me as I was closely involved on the WR in the staff consultation and train service changes to close it down.  That was in a job I'd been appointed to in 1989 so early '90s would be far more likely as I'd been working on various aspects of the Speedlink closure, and the alternatives which saved parts of it (under different names)  for a while before it was closed down.

[Mallard60022]

Sectorisation did it in for me. No idea why other than I did not like the livery ideas. Although a bit sad and quite run down, I rather liked the post steam railway circa 1970 through to the early/mid 80s, shed & Works visits still being of interest but I suppose I was sort of in Spotter mode back then with son in tow for a lot of the time (most enjoyable times).

 Then things started getting too clinical for me. For the customer of that railway it was probably not very good at all but as things 'improved' then that experience began to improve I am sure. I still find rail travel exciting even though I have little interest in the actual rolling stock, especially Units, despite there being loads of different types if you actually look at the plastic things.  

Strangely I saw a Class 68 through Retford not so long ago and it sounded like what I would describe as a real diesel loco but without the filthy clag that some so enjoy. It did look a bit like a Coctail Bar on wheels, but it was clean and looking very smart. I quite liked it! Only a few days later I thought I saw another at Donny but it was actually a Class 88 Electric. Same design, different whizzy bits to make it go I am told. I quite liked that too, but I had been drinking in the bar on Platform 3A.

The operation of the railway still fascinates me as someone that does not know much technically but does enjoy watching an Industry and public service at work. Retford can be quite boring, however Doncaster and York are busy, busy, busy and with loads of action. Whether this compares to travelling miles around the country, in February, on a freezing Sunday afternoon, to find a lone 03 stuck on a 'tip' siding in the middle of nowhere is another matter!

Phil

Edited May 23, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, grahame said:

I took this snap yesterday evening on my way to meet some friends in a pub: 

 

 

It's Surbiton station which is not only grade II listed but is considered to be one of the finest modernist stations in Britain. 

 

G

 

 

 

I wonder whether Margo Leadbetter approved or did she think it was horrible and modern?

 

 

 

Jason

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Retford in between the years of Tony's pictures was (to me) interesting - just out of my OO modelling era though. There's even steam in the photo (leaking heating hose) !!

 

3 Jan 1970. D9011 & D1103 double head a southbound express, (which we had travelled behind from Doncaster). Then downstairs to the new Sheffield bound platforms, DMU to Sheffield, mad dash across town and E26057 Ulysses took us to Manchester on next to the last day of services over Woodhead.

 

 

Blue diesels with proper numbers !!

 

Brit15

You're virtually standing on the site of the old flat crossing, removed some five years before. 

 

Out of interest, just above the Deltic can be seen the Up slow starter. Prior to the removal of the crossing and the new dive-under coming into use, that peg would have been 'off' for a train going eastwards, the original (middle home) having now been removed. 

[APOLLO]

Is this the signal you mention above that seems to be "off" for the Brush 4 arriving at Retford Tony ? - Same day a few hours earlier - waiting for our northbound train.

 

 

Brit15

 

 

[t-b-g]

5 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

 

Though they can in some instances be quite uplifting ....maybe?

 

No doubt they are striking and to some eyes attractive buildings. I just prefer the days when I could tell which part of the world I was looking at by the architectural style. It is very difficult to even say which country you are in from those buildings. As an example, my latest project is based on the LD&ECR. Although it is a fictitious station, the signal box, station building and signals will allow anybody who has a vague idea about such things to place the layout in a certain part of the country. I can look at something like the late David Jenkinson's "Garsdale Road" layout and it shouts Settle and Carlisle at me.

 

The regional identity through the appearance of buildings etc.is something that we are losing rapidly. Most new building is "identikit" and a new B & Q or new housing in Scotland looks just the same as one in Cornwall.

 

 

[davidw]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Anyway, back to 'modelling'.

 

A short-evening's work yesterday produced this.

 

 

Bachmann's latest maroon 'Porthole' BTK, now ready for service on LB. Chuck away the tension-locks, make my own couplings and weather the underframe, bogies and roof. Job done! As a layout coach?

 

Though my preference will always be to try and 'make things', why not exploit something like this? Anyone who can't do what I've just done with this must be a very rare bird in this hobby. 

 

 

Now, already in service on a typical Nottingham-Kings Lynn turn. There's another 'Porthole' Composite behind. I considered such 'modern' stock would be unusual on the M&GNR, but a glance at a couple of books showed examples - Mk.1s as well!

 

The loco (altered Bachmann) came from my dear late friend, Dave Shakespeare.  

Tony, am I correct in thinking that portholes and possibly other Ex LMS coaches found their way into ECML trains as strengtheners?

[Tony Wright]

35 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Is this the signal you mention above that seems to be "off" for the Brush 4 arriving at Retford Tony ? - Same day a few hours earlier - waiting for our northbound train.

 

 

Brit15

 

 

It is,

 

If you examine the bracket signal in question, just to the left of the main support can be seen the 'stump' of the original, middle signal - which would have been the one pulled 'off' were the flat crossing still in place. 

 

Behind that signal, and adjacent to the buffer stop, is the site of Retford's South 'box, the structure made redundant by the removal of the crossing and the opening of the dive-under. 

 

The actual signal was a BR plate & angle construction, dating from the late-'50s. The first time I visited Retford, it was a lattice bracket, but it was knocked down when some vans derailed in a freight train heading north over the crossing, and it had to be replaced. Though an Up signal, it was placed on the Down side for sighting reasons.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

5 minutes ago, davidw said:

Tony, am I correct in thinking that portholes and possibly other Ex LMS coaches found their way into ECML trains as strengtheners?

They did, David,

 

And not just as strengtheners. On occasions (even behind Deltics) complete ECML rakes were formed of LMS-designed carriages. 

 

I might have shown these images before (copyright restrictions apply, please), but they answer your question. I have some more, which I'll try and find.....................

 

 

 

 

Great to see you at Bristol, by the way.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

 

Though they can in some instances be quite uplifting ....maybe?

Where are these please Tim?

[Lecorbusier]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Where are these please Tim?

Both are also by Santiago Calatrava .... hence why it might be difficult to place them in terms of a particular railway - though to my eye one is very French, and the Swiss example posted earlier also feels very Swiss .... but I suspect that's because I am particularly attuned (I am told sheep all look different to a shepherd!).

 

The first is the Gare do Oriente, or alternately, the Lisbon Oriente Station

 

The Second is the Gare de Saint-Exupéry TGV (formerly Gare de Satolas TGV)  near Lyon, France.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Lecorbusier

[Tony Wright]

 

Using this picture again, what I should have mentioned is it's one which was useful when WMRC built Stoke Summit. The photographer is standing just to the west side, above the south portal of Stoke Tunnel (the highest on the ECML in England - in Lincolnshire!). Note the limestone outcrops - something I've replicated on Little Bytham. If anyone questions the 'realism', I ask them where do they think the limestone came from?

 

I think Stoke Summit 'worked' because the emphasis was on the trains which ran - which, in the main, had all been made. 

 

 

Trains like the Northumbrian. Note the variety in this consist, compared with the 'unit' trains of today.

 

 

Here's our rendition of it, running on Stoke Summit. Dave Lewis and I built it - he used his own kits (including the Cravens prototype), and I built the triplet and a Thompson substitute for a Mk.1. 

 

What does this show? That the model Stoke Summit was only a third of the length it should have been? That to model the BR trains of the period correctly, one had to build kits? If one were building a model of it today, not one item of loco/stock would need to be built? Does anyone build Class 91s, Mk.4 stock or HSTs? That the general railway scene from nearly 60 years ago was kept much more tidy? 

 

When Stoke was being built, I went back to the actual summit, but any pictures were of little use because Mother Nature had taken back what was originally hers. Apart from when being close to the actual railway (not trespassing), everything railway-wise was completely hidden by bushes and trees. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point