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Wright writes.....


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34 minutes ago, Jamiel said:


cut....

Maybe it is a personal dislike, but the thing I find does not translate into models is a telegraph pole at an angle like in you first photo. I think we have all seen models with badly added poles that have lent that and just look like poor modelling. I find there are a few other architectural details that really stand out like that, platform canopy supports and just about anything that should be vertical and is linear.
 

Maybe a pet hate, or perhaps a pet weakness for not recognising reality and wanting models to be too perfect as opposed to too accurate.
 

Modellers creating the town of Piza can be excepted from this though.
 

Jamie

Given the slight distortion/window slope in the building visible behind it and the pole part visible on the extreme right I interpret that as a slight bit of lens distortion (widish angle lens) not a wonky pole. However, the one's in the left background (rear of the tender) are a bit skew-whiff compared to each other.

Edited by john new
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3 minutes ago, john new said:

Given the slight distortion/window slope in the building visible behind it and the pole part visible on the extreme right I interpret that as a slight bit of lens distortion (widish angle lens) not a wonky pole. However, the one's in the left background (rear of the tender) are a bit skew-whiff compared to each other.


Having shot numerous lens grids for film productions and looking at the uprights in the building beyond, the angle of the pole and the angle of the verticals in the building would be the same if only caused by the lens distortion. The lean on the telegraph pole is much greater than that on the building verticals, but I do see the distortion you mention as there is a spread of vertical distortion across the whole image which is due to a wide(ish) lens being used for the photo.
 

My main point though was that even if evidence shows uprights at an angle, on a model it (often) just looks wrong. Sometimes that evidence can be due to misinterpreting how a photo was taken, as you point out, so copying what you see should also copy being viewed through a comparable lens.
 

It can get very complicated when taking into account lens distortion and other artefacts of cameras. I posted a while ago about how the light balance and exposure of a camera greatly affect how colours can appear in an image.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123189-what-is-green-or-blue-how-photography-affects-colours/


Jamie

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25 minutes ago, john new said:

Given the slight distortion/window slope in the building visible behind it and the pole part visible on the extreme right I interpret that as a slight bit of lens distortion (widish angle lens) not a wonky pole. However, the one's in the left background (rear of the tender) are a bit skew-whiff compared to each other.

Not (much) lens distortion, John,

 

Just wonky poles on this section of Gamston Bank. The cross-rails aren't all parallel, either.

 

220449466_60007wonkytelegraphposts.jpg.00b8b50ae0005c6724c61cc971012b4d.jpg

 

549354103_60103wonkypoles.jpg.f13c5f9618bc87e7faa713cb8f52007f.jpg

 

1628549120_60109wonkypoles.jpg.f104300beb471468d3c6cde32acd22e9.jpg

 

60117_wonky_poles.jpg.05dfd55392982842143b8e1caccc5691.jpg

 

All, please observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
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10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Just wonky poles on this section of Gamston Bank. The cross-rails aren't all parallel, either.

 

 

They are arms Tony, not cross-rails..... and come in 2-, 4-, 6- or 8-way sizes.

 

I find it interesting that we are happy to model the detail differences to our locos, but on steamers are reluctant to put dents and scrapes on them. I would expect that there would be more in the last years of steam than in the early grouping period, so in theory they should be modelled.

 

But actually how would you model that dent?

 

 

Andy G

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Talking about bent front ends Tony, I can accross a short video of a shed in BR days and took a screenshot of this....

 

do you really think it would be possible to replicate this? 

D6BDAF7E-705C-4E31-A762-6CA46DA321DE.jpeg

 

On a white metal kit the answer is yes, the whitemetal footplate will quite easily take that sort of shape, usually when you want it dead straight!

 

Andy G

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7 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Talking about bent front ends Tony, I can accross a short video of a shed in BR days and took a screenshot of this....

 

do you really think it would be possible to replicate this? 

D6BDAF7E-705C-4E31-A762-6CA46DA321DE.jpeg

Hold the model by the tender, Jesse,

 

Stand over a concrete floor with your arm out straight, and drop it! 

 

I don't know what it is about ex-GC 2-8-0s and all their derivatives. So many have a buckled front footplate, with the buffer beam drooping down. They were built like battleships, and it didn't seem to impede their operation, even with the buffers staring at the road ahead.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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On 07/07/2019 at 21:45, Tony Wright said:

Though I don't have pictures of all the 'inspirational layouts mentioned, a further selection...............................

 

1758194849_PendonDartmoor12DPS.jpg.a78d71513bb7031f81760815db8f6fc2.jpg

 

Pendon, obviously!

 

1019454288_GresleyBeat01modified.jpg.8e44720bb0a9420f8f7dbcb5d91793e6.jpg

 

1623617200_13GresleyBeatlayout4.jpg.e37460bc513a73a8a7c383d5da260f94.jpg

 

The Gresley Beat is certainly a 'modern classic'.

 

1649586271_BlackLionCrossing.jpg.d1a5fcbdad37be5e65abf53701342054.jpg

 

Destined to be highly-influential, Geoff Kent's Black Lion Crossing in EM. 

 

120257050_03KingsCrosslayout1.jpg.cdbe4ae014ca6dfb759d5bdbcdc4d99c.jpg

 

Certainly important down the decades, Gainsborough's massive O Gauge Kings Cross-Leeds layout. 

 

1632131780_TetleysMills.jpg.ec322677a8b8a5ec430a0fa0c6ad4e8e.jpg

 

How about the late Dave Shakespeare's Tetleys Mills?

 

852209393_Burntisland03.jpg.5c8775eeed8a65a4f853e13b98236e9e.jpg

 

559153812_Burntisland06.jpg.ab089d52cdfb8c713b6331464c08a04a.jpg

 

If ever its builders could get it to work properly, Burntisland in P4 would qualify in my book as one of the finest layouts ever built.  

 

2146632708_ForthBridge03.jpg.d0920643016fa971a301156d9700cf5e.jpg

 

The Forth Bridge in T Scale. Incredible, really. 

 

393914842_Farkham05.jpg.eacede445de280cf9a4cf3b567d8722d.jpg

 

A diesel-era layout not mentioned which I think is excellent is Farkham. 

 

Despite all the 'claims' made by and for all the other layouts which could be classed as influential or inspirational, nothing beats the layout below as far as I'm concerned.................

 

409934037_34Retfordlayout13.jpg.cf0988e7e76c1a5f30d7aa73e54b85fb.jpg

 

Retford - the best ever in my view, despite its never being finished. Each to their own.........................

 

Thanks once more for all the recent comments. 

It has been mentioned, a few times, that Retford may never be finished. Does that mean the layout will be dismantled? Such a terrible loss.

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1 hour ago, uax6 said:

 

They are arms Tony, not cross-rails..... and come in 2-, 4-, 6- or 8-way sizes.

 

I find it interesting that we are happy to model the detail differences to our locos, but on steamers are reluctant to put dents and scrapes on them. I would expect that there would be more in the last years of steam than in the early grouping period, so in theory they should be modelled.

 

But actually how would you model that dent?

 

 

Andy G

 

 

Thanks Andy,

 

It's good to get the correct names for parts. 

 

The answer to your question is, I wouldn't even try.

 

Most visible sections on real steam locomotives are built of sheet metal, of various thicknesses - boiler cladding, cabs, tenders, etc. The frames (though made of sheet metal) are much thicker, and mostly invisible behind the wheels, anyway. Even on newly-built or ex-works locos (particularly painted in gloss), there are cockles and ripples all over the place. A4s' boiler cladding and, particularly, Bulleid's original Pacifics, if built as models as they appear in reality would just look like sloppy building. I've built Crownline kits for air-smoothed Bulleids and fought like mad to get the casings 'flat', yet, for reality, I need not have bothered! The same is so for Pro-Scale A4s. 

 

Mortehoe.jpg.89ee32997c75594c8d42c0f49cd39d16.jpg

 

The casing on this air-smoothed 'WC' (Crownline/Wright/Rathbone) is far too 'perfect'. It should have creases, dents, ripples and even the odd split joint! 

 

A4.jpg.edad972d115d869ae37d46ed3bc5656d.jpg

 

Certainly no dent in the front of this A4's casing, nor ripples in its flanks. It's a modified Hornby one, painted by Ian Rathbone. How anyone would be able to introduce creases and dents into a plastic model like this, I don't know. 

 

Yet, as Clive Mortimer has shown us on the last page (or last but one - this thread goes along so quickly!), folk do - I have to say that Class 60 was one of the most-realistic models (not just diesels) I've seen. 

 

Speaking of diesels.................

 

712924371_D207.jpg.cbb05f2d8a689f2e2f51ea670b305b72.jpg

 

This is elder son Tom's extensive reworking of a Lima EE Type 4 (yes, the front vertical handrails are incorrect for D207), but the sides are absolutely flat. Perhaps brand-new, but later in their lives, diesel locos developed all sorts of ripples and dents.

 

1021914501_D6700.jpg.76757801a776b6dc3705ea42d91af1a7.jpg

 

This is his reworking of a Hornby EE Type 3. Again, very even sides.

 

1017881778_D9010.jpg.f50d6da50c290b2f4767896a121ccdec.jpg

 

And his reworking of a Bachmann Deltic. Even when still in green, the Deltics' bodysides would often reveal their 'skeleton' underneath, yet I've never seen it done on a model.

 

I do bottle out when it comes to 'extreme' representations...................

 

261826401_O48.jpg.3de60b1bad7536be68cc1dcc6c2e53af.jpg

 

Though weathered, my 40+ year old part scratch-built O4/8 has a front footplate absolutely dead straight. 

 

760694646_Ace02painted.jpg.7ce3665e63970bec5ed1f7414f21664b.jpg

 

I built this ACE O2/2, and it's shown here as ex-works (it's now been weathered, of course), but, there should be ripples in the platework, especially on the tender with a real loco of this age represented.

 

1640868321_02complete01.jpg.824b881f8705b02a29a2c84d638d3f12.jpg

 

A PDK O2/4, built by me and weathered for me by Tom. Again, there should be the odd dent, though O2s tended to have a straighter front end than their O4 cousins. 9F.jpg.66c2f2c3edfe73b4c1bf5b94136413eb.jpg

 

I detailed/weathered this Bachmann 9F to show it in the condition it might have been a month or so after shopping. 9Fs, in particular, used to show bent deflector handrails, but I've left these dead straight. 

 

How far should one go in the search for realism?

 

A1.jpg.46e80d5d1ccb053efad72c02d6155553.jpg

 

This A1 (DJH/WRight/Rathbone) represents 60136 ALCAZAR. When consulting period prototype pictures, 60136's front numberplate was crooked on the top smokebox door hingestrap. Yet, I asked Ian to put it on dead straight! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

It has been mentioned, a few times, that Retford may never be finished. Does that mean the layout will be dismantled? Such a terrible loss.

Decisions have yet to be made regarding Retford's future. 

 

It's not as if it's like Buckingham, which would fit into an average-sized room in a house! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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32 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andy,

 

It's good to get the correct names for parts. 

 

The answer to your question is, I wouldn't even try.

 

Most visible sections on real steam locomotives are built of sheet metal, of various thicknesses - boiler cladding, cabs, tenders, etc. The frames (though made of sheet metal) are much thicker, and mostly invisible behind the wheels, anyway. Even on newly-built or ex-works locos (particularly painted in gloss), there are cockles and ripples all over the place. A4s' boiler cladding and, particularly, Bulleid's original Pacifics, if built as models as they appear in reality would just look like sloppy building. I've built Crownline kits for air-smoothed Bulleids and fought like mad to get the casings 'flat', yet, for reality, I need not have bothered! The same is so for Pro-Scale A4s. 

 

Mortehoe.jpg.89ee32997c75594c8d42c0f49cd39d16.jpg

 

The casing on this air-smoothed 'WC' (Crownline/Wright/Rathbone) is far too 'perfect'. It should have creases, dents, ripples and even the odd split joint! 

 

A4.jpg.edad972d115d869ae37d46ed3bc5656d.jpg

 

Certainly no dent in the front of this A4's casing, nor ripples in its flanks. It's a modified Hornby one, painted by Ian Rathbone. How anyone would be able to introduce creases and dents into a plastic model like this, I don't know. 

 

Yet, as Clive Mortimer has shown us on the last page (or last but one - this thread goes along so quickly!), folk do - I have to say that Class 60 was one of the most-realistic models (not just diesels) I've seen. 

 

Speaking of diesels.................

 

712924371_D207.jpg.cbb05f2d8a689f2e2f51ea670b305b72.jpg

 

This is elder son Tom's extensive reworking of a Lima EE Type 4 (yes, the front vertical handrails are incorrect for D207), but the sides are absolutely flat. Perhaps brand-new, but later in their lives, diesel locos developed all sorts of ripples and dents.

 

1021914501_D6700.jpg.76757801a776b6dc3705ea42d91af1a7.jpg

 

This is his reworking of a Hornby EE Type 3. Again, very even sides.

 

1017881778_D9010.jpg.f50d6da50c290b2f4767896a121ccdec.jpg

 

And his reworking of a Bachmann Deltic. Even when still in green, the Deltics' bodysides would often reveal their 'skeleton' underneath, yet I've never seen it done on a model.

 

I do bottle out when it comes to 'extreme' representations...................

 

261826401_O48.jpg.3de60b1bad7536be68cc1dcc6c2e53af.jpg

 

Though weathered, my 40+ year old part scratch-built O4/8 has a front footplate absolutely dead straight. 

 

760694646_Ace02painted.jpg.7ce3665e63970bec5ed1f7414f21664b.jpg

 

I built this ACE O2/2, and it's shown here as ex-works (it's now been weathered, of course), but, there should be ripples in the platework, especially on the tender with a real loco of this age represented.

 

1640868321_02complete01.jpg.824b881f8705b02a29a2c84d638d3f12.jpg

 

A PDK O2/4, built by me and weathered for me by Tom. Again, there should be the odd dent, though O2s tended to have a straighter front end than their O4 cousins. 9F.jpg.66c2f2c3edfe73b4c1bf5b94136413eb.jpg

 

I detailed/weathered this Bachmann 9F to show it in the condition it might have been a month or so after shopping. 9Fs, in particular, used to show bent deflector handrails, but I've left these dead straight. 

 

How far should one go in the search for realism?

 

A1.jpg.46e80d5d1ccb053efad72c02d6155553.jpg

 

This A1 (DJH/WRight/Rathbone) represents 60136 ALCAZAR. When consulting period prototype pictures, 60136's front numberplate was crooked on the top smokebox door hingestrap. Yet, I asked Ian to put it on dead straight! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

I try and build them straight, but the wonky bits creep in...

 

Tim

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3 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

On a white metal kit the answer is yes, the whitemetal footplate will quite easily take that sort of shape, usually when you want it dead straight!

 

Andy G

On a brass kit, if you drop it off the bench to test the air brakes such damage will come naturally.   Been there and got the T shirt.

 

Jamie

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Beware dropping things too far (or getting involved in a road accident)!

 

606003525_DJHA1.jpg.f0433bd35284020219d9b4e0e18795f0.jpg

 

I showed this picture some months ago, the result of its being (among many other models) in a car prang (the insurance on which is still to be resolved). Ironically, because this A1 had been glued together, it's ended up (in part) as a kit again, so probably suffered less material damage than if it had been soldered together. When the insurance is sorted out, I'll acquire this dear old thing, chuck it all in Nitromores overnight and rebuild it. 

 

Speaking of soldering....................

 

2056404742_DJHA16015701.jpg.17039c11179aba85a51912c0e89685f0.jpg

 

Here's progress on my latest DJH A1, destined to become 60157 GREAT EASTERN, a roller-bearing example (note the round keeps to the axleboxes). 

 

I'm trying to build this as 'straight' as possible. However, as Tim observed, the wonky bits just creep in, but so far so good...................

 

When I had this loco on display last at a show (in a much-less-completed state) I got the usual question of 'Why are you building something like this when there's a perfectly good RTR example available, and it's cheaper?'. I've mentioned this type of thing before, and if such questions are asked (and they'll continue to be asked), rather than explain why, I'll just tell the questioners I'm an idiot! If they have to ask such a question, they'll probably never understand the real answer. 

 

In the same way that a visitor once 'boasted', on counting those on view on LB, that he had more locos than I had, only to be rather deflated when I pointed out that not one was his own work. Not that mine were better, not at all. Just 'mine'.

Edited by Tony Wright
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17 hours ago, Jamiel said:


I completely agree about bashed panels. Sorry to bring up diesels again, but looking at almost any photo of a class 24 or 25 after a few months in use, they always had a dent in the cab front just above the coupling where it had bashed the panel. It would take a lot of guts to get a file, or soldering iron to melt and make a SLW Class 24 have that damage. I might feel braver with a Bachmann one though.

Maybe it is a personal dislike, but the thing I find does not translate into models is a telegraph pole at an angle like in you first photo. I think we have all seen models with badly added poles that have lent that and just look like poor modelling. I find there are a few other architectural details that really stand out like that, platform canopy supports and just about anything that should be vertical and is linear.
 

Maybe a pet hate, or perhaps a pet weakness for not recognising reality and wanting models to be too perfect as opposed to too accurate.
 

Modellers creating the town of Piza can be excepted from this though.
 

Jamie

Agree with you about the telegraph poles and platform canopy supports being upright. I find it's particularly odd when modelling USA prototype that in old photos you rarely see a vertical telegraph pole, especially in more rural western areas. yet try to replicate that on a model and it just looks awful. I'm more of an overall effect modeller than a detailed one, but that is one detail that bugs me. 

Jon

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25 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Good to know, Clem as I have one in the pile.  Do you know where the 1mm is located?

I assume it's at each end of the frames, Jonathan. To get the frames to fit in EM there is a fair amount of surgery to the underside of the  body (where the Bachmann chassis slides in) required at the front just to get it level, but it looks as though a bit of extra work is still needed to get the body to sit a bit lower and achieve the correct buffer height. I've also built a Bradwell one in P4 and that was a bit easier (it's what he designed the chassis for), although I find his horn blocks and springing method a bit awkward and fiddly. The Comet chassis model is built as a rigid chassis which is rare for me - only the second I've done since way back when in my OO days of the early 80's. I must say everyone is different but I struggle getting rigid chassis to run as smoothly as sprung or compensated ones, but a lot of people swear by a rigid chassis. (I swear at it after I've built it!). Each to their own.

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Is there a particular reason why the J39’s counterbalance on the centre driving wheel is on a different quartering to the front and rear ones?  It’s an unusual feature.

 

Phil

Edited by Chamby
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Thank you to everyone for the J39 chassis input. I'm sure I can now find a way to model the lubricator having seen some examples. The J39 is only my second chassis build, the first being an Ipswich based J72 so it has been built rigid though I did have a very good tutorial at Expo EM this year on how to use High Level Hornblocks so would like to give those a try in the future.

 

Using the Poppy's jig, once set up it was quite straight forward.

 

IMG_20190709_215628656.jpg.ff5acd0fc2812afa54988381f9e151bc.jpg

 

This is the end result, a nice square chassis

IMG_20190709_220716268.jpg.0ce8adf20e130f4cba929780294c8193.jpg

 

Everything has since been given a clean.

 

My EM stud is a bit of mixed bag reflecting the two ends of my modelling interests. As well as the two Comet chassis there is an 08, class 24 and J15 conversion using Gibson wheels and some re gauged Bullants with wheels simply pulled out on the axles.

 

Martyn

 

 

Edited by mullie
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1 hour ago, Chamby said:

Is there a particular reason why the J39’s counterbalance on the centre driving wheel is on a different quartering to the front and rear ones?  It’s an unusual feature.

 

Phil

 

A quick look at pictures of J50s and LMS 4F tender locos shows the same thing.  [I had never noticed before.]   I think it is probably due to the drive being onto the centre axle and so requiring different balancing to the other wheels.  

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All this talk about dents and bends. How's this for a more extreme example? J27 65811 at North Blyth

Obviously they didn't have time  to do the job properly! I do know that it lasted several months in this condition before ending its working life at Sunderland.

 

ArthurK

Book 8 015_5.jpg

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1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

A quick look at pictures of J50s and LMS 4F tender locos shows the same thing.  [I had never noticed before.]   I think it is probably due to the drive being onto the centre axle and so requiring different balancing to the other wheels.  

Most inside cylinder locos do not have the outside cranks in the same plane as the inside ones, the balance weights on the driving axle have to balance both coupling rods and cranks. There are exceptions to this, I think the GW 56xx is one.

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12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Beware dropping things too far (or getting involved in a road accident)!

 

606003525_DJHA1.jpg.f0433bd35284020219d9b4e0e18795f0.jpg

 

I showed this picture some months ago, the result of its being (among many other models) in a car prang (the insurance on which is still to be resolved). Ironically, because this A1 had been glued together, it's ended up (in part) as a kit again, so probably suffered less material damage than if it had been soldered together. When the insurance is sorted out, I'll acquire this dear old thing, chuck it all in Nitromores overnight 

Tony

That's a curious A1 - some of the valve gear appears to be off a Hornby Dublo West Country looking at the combination lever and return crank! 

 

I tried the other day to make my contribution on inspirational layouts but kept getting timed out on RMweb on my tablet. Works much better on the home desktop PC.

Andrew

 

 

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