Wright writes.....

[grahame]

4 minutes ago, RBAGE said:

Yes but professionally built trackwork is a start point that many will never have the opportunity to benefit from.

 

Maybe, but it doesn't mean that those 'many' who will never benefit from professional trackwork have to have poorly laid and badly aligned commercial track. Many layouts utilise commercial track that works well and run trains that don't fall off. It's a matter of care in installing it.

 

G

[RBAGE]

6 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Maybe, but it doesn't mean that those 'many' who will never benefit from professional trackwork have to have poorly laid and badly aligned commercial track. Many layouts utilise commercial track that works well and run trains that don't fall off. It's a matter of care in installing it.

 

G

That is an absolute fact.

I have built layouts with handbuilt pointwork (built by myself) and using commercially available pointwork.

My current layout, which is a work in progress, utilises Peco track throughout so I am not a standard bearer for any particular form of model permanent way.

What I can say categorically is that I am dissatisfied with the limitations that fixed geometry pointwork presents.

The point is, short of a lottery win or an unexpected inheritance, like most modellers, I will never be able to employ the services of Norman Solomon.

For anyone to generalise and wax lyrical about the superior performance of their train set, built by someone else ...............

I won't say more. 

[Anglian]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've just learned that Cambridge has had the hottest temperature on record in July in this country. Cambridge is just an hour's drive away from here (traffic on the A14 permitting). 

 

Have I had any problems with buckling track on LB? No, but last year I had the occasional short circuit in the very hot weather of last summer - short circuits caused by the gaps between the switch rails and the 'V's on some points closing up. 

 

All LB's trackwork was laid in warm weather - Norman Solomon's scenic side track and mine in the fiddle yard. Plenty of expansion gaps were left, and they've proved satisfactory. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I don't think the A14 did permit today, there were horrendous tailbacks in the area, the M11 Northbound looked blocked when I crossed over it and that's usually down to issues on the A14 westbound. Of all the days to be stuck in traffic, quite a few emergency vehicles lit up flying around. Tonight a neighbour told me her son can't get a train from Kings Cross until the morning. I stepped into my garden, about 3 miles to the south of Cambridge, around 15:00 hours and came straight back inside muttering 'that's killer heat today.'

Edited July 25, 2019 by Anglian

[Tony Wright]

48 minutes ago, RBAGE said:

Yes but professionally built trackwork is a start point that many will never have the opportunity to benefit from.

 

The best built loco will suffer on badly built or layed track.

I agree,

 

However, over 80% of the trackwork on LB is Peco Code 100 Streamline, plain track and points; in the fiddle yard. There are 27 points/crossings on the scenic section (made and laid by Norman Solomon) but near 100 points in the fiddle  yard and scores of yards of plain track, all of which I laid. I'm not a professional track-maker, nor a professional track-layer, yet I get just as good running in the fiddle yard (apart from some finer wheelsets 'dropping' into the frogs, though they don't derail) as over Norman's track.  

 

I just took the greatest care in laying it all, and equal care with the wiring up. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

Maybe, but it doesn't mean that those 'many' who will never benefit from professional trackwork have to have poorly laid and badly aligned commercial track. Many layouts utilise commercial track that works well and run trains that don't fall off. It's a matter of care in installing it.

 

G

Grantham being a well-known example.

[Tony Wright]

22 hours ago, RBAGE said:

That is an absolute fact.

I have built layouts with handbuilt pointwork (built by myself) and using commercially available pointwork.

My current layout, which is a work in progress, utilises Peco track throughout so I am not a standard bearer for any particular form of model permanent way.

What I can say categorically is that I am dissatisfied with the limitations that fixed geometry pointwork presents.

The point is, short of a lottery win or an unexpected inheritance, like most modellers, I will never be able to employ the services of Norman Solomon.

For anyone to generalise and wax lyrical about the superior performance of their train set, built by someone else ...............

I won't say more. 

'For anyone to generalise and wax lyrical about the superior performance of their train set, built by someone else ...............

I won't say more.' 

 

I assume you're talking of me here? If you're not, and I've come to the wrong conclusion, then my apologies. 

 

If I'm right in my assumption, may I respond with a few points, please? 

 

Your statement (unless I'm wrong) might be read by some to mean that everything on LB was built by others. I assume that the fact that I've built almost all the locomotives on it, almost all the passenger rolling stock, laid all the fiddle yard track and done 90% of the wiring doesn't count. 

 

Where have I waxed lyrical about my trainset? I've merely stated facts. It would appear to mean not a jot to you that I spend much of my time helping others in their railway modelling to achieve the standard of running I insist upon. That's helping them to build locos and rolling stock and assist in their laying of track and wiring on their own layouts. I won't respond immediately tomorrow afternoon on here because guess where I'll be? At a friend's house, sorting out (or trying to) some poor-running locos on his layout - I'll find out whether it's the locos or the track (or both) which are giving trouble, and try to fix them.

 

My fee? A donation to CRUK. As it always is, whether I fix things her, at shows or on others' layouts. 

 

I don't state anything of the above to elicit praise or sympathy, but just to state facts. 

 

And, in the spirit you suggest, I won't say more.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[RBAGE]

Sorry Tony, I'm not going to go anywhere near that attempt at a comparison. 

[Tony Wright]

4 minutes ago, RBAGE said:

Sorry Tony, I'm not going to go anywhere near that attempt at a comparison. 

I don't mind if you do; not at all.

 

As you can guess, I love robust discussion.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[RBAGE]

Tony,

You are certainly a good sport when it comes to discourse.

I'm sure we'll find time for further exchanges.

Nice train set.

Regards,

Bob

[t-b-g]

I think that the "professional" thing is a bit of a "red herring".

 

I used to have a proper job as a manager in a Building Society.

 

Then circumstances changed and I ended up building model railway things for people, including pointwork. I am a mere upstart in terms of numbers built compared with Norman Solomon but the points I built when I worked at the Building Society were just as good as the ones I build now.

 

The inference that my pointwork should be better because I get paid for it is a nonsense. People pay me to build points because I build good points!

 

I am sure that Norman Solomon was also highly skilled as a track builder long before he went professional at it. I can't imagine somebody approaching a novice and saying "I know you have no experience and can't show me any examples of your work but will you please build me some track?".

 

I was having this discussion with a couple of highly regarded 2mm Finescale modellers the other day. They could both do pretty much any modelling task to a great level of competence but if they did everything themselves, neither would finish their layouts in a reasonable timescale because of the sheer amount of modelling they need to do. So they buy in some help.

 

Is it "cheating"? Should they just build smaller layouts so they could do it all themselves?

 

Of course I am biased in this one. I am quite happy when such people turn to others for paid help! I say that if they don't claim credit for what others have done and don't use it s an excuse to dodge jobs that they don't like or enjoy, that they could do but choose to contract out, then it is just another way to get the layout built. No worse than buying a loco made by Hornby or Bachmann to save the time of building one. 

[45568]

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Sorry to go back a bit to resurrect this, but I wonder if anyone can help me please?

I too had a Bec J17, on the then new Wills etched "Triang" chassis. I sold it on many years ago though. But I still have my original Bec J17 on a proper Triang chassis - my 1st loco kit! Having seen others efforts with the kit, I want to give it a going over.

I've looked on the SEF website and found no mention of this chassis, so I presume it has either been dropped, or morphed into a "specific" chassis for some kit that has been upgraded. Does anyone know? Or maybe there is another kit from someone else that will do the job - bearing in mind the Triang dimensions.

I don't really need the wheels, motor or gearbox,  just the frames and rods.

 

Stewart

Hi Stewart,

                   Looking at the Wills. sorry..S.E. Finecast online catalogue, the recommended etched chassis for the LMS Caley tank and SR E2 is code FC200. Since both of these were specified for the jinty 0.6.0 mechanism, I think this would suit. Interestingly the SR G6 and GWR U1 tank use FC201, this would be the replacement for the old H/Dub;o 0.6.0 chassis as originally recommended.

 It is probably worth a call to SEF to check, but it seems like this is the answer.

 I am pleased that mine and others efforts with the J17 have inspired you..now does anyone out there have a Bec LSWR D15 kit, built or unbuilt they would like to emigrate down-under??

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Grantham being a well-known example.

gee, i think Brighton Junction is getting a bit left out here hahaha

 

 

My track works fine, nothing falls off, i recall an incident on your layout, a rake almost falling off if it wasnt for me hehehe

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

27 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

gee, i think Brighton Junction is getting a bit left out here hahaha

 

 

My track works fine, nothing falls off, i recall an incident on your layout, a rake almost falling off if it wasnt for me hehehe

 

 

 

Indeed!

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I think that the "professional" thing is a bit of a "red herring".

 

I used to have a proper job as a manager in a Building Society.

 

Then circumstances changed and I ended up building model railway things for people, including pointwork. I am a mere upstart in terms of numbers built compared with Norman Solomon but the points I built when I worked at the Building Society were just as good as the ones I build now.

 

The inference that my pointwork should be better because I get paid for it is a nonsense. People pay me to build points because I build good points!

 

I am sure that Norman Solomon was also highly skilled as a track builder long before he went professional at it. I can't imagine somebody approaching a novice and saying "I know you have no experience and can't show me any examples of your work but will you please build me some track?".

 

I was having this discussion with a couple of highly regarded 2mm Finescale modellers the other day. They could both do pretty much any modelling task to a great level of competence but if they did everything themselves, neither would finish their layouts in a reasonable timescale because of the sheer amount of modelling they need to do. So they buy in some help.

 

Is it "cheating"? Should they just build smaller layouts so they could do it all themselves?

 

Of course I am biased in this one. I am quite happy when such people turn to others for paid help! I say that if they don't claim credit for what others have done and don't use it s an excuse to dodge jobs that they don't like or enjoy, that they could do but choose to contract out, then it is just another way to get the layout built. No worse than buying a loco made by Hornby or Bachmann to save the time of building one. 

A typical sound and reasoned post, Tony,

 

If I can add to the 'professional' discussion, I'd already built scores of locomotives when I was still a teacher. After I'd abandoned the profession, I looked to other ways in which I could earn a living, which included loco-building, photography and writing. Things which previously had been hobbies. Did the fact that I was 'proficient' enough in these activities - proficient enough for me to earn  money by doing them - then make me a 'professional'? As 'professional' as I had been as a teacher? I suppose the principal difference was that no 'professional' qualification was necessary to build locos, nor take pictures nor write (though my being a teacher must have helped a bit, since I taught art/craft, photography and basic English - and basic Maths). 

 

Like you, I had a full order book, and it would still be full (or fuller?) were I still doing these things full-time, especially loco-building. 

 

As for 'buying in' help, I don't have the slightest problem with that. It's what I do all the time, though the 'buying' is often in kind. Though I've made track, I know it'll never be in the Solomon class, but I can participate in the making of DVDs. I've also made signals, but they're nowhere near to the same standard as those you build, nor those built by Mick Nicholson or Graham Nicholas. But in the last-mentioned case, a couple or so locos on Grantham and on Shap help out as 'payment'. My architectural model-making is not in the Wilson/Dawson class, but locos and photographs are excellent 'bartering' tools, and locos are also a good currency in exchange for baseboards and freight rolling stock. Photography is also very useful in getting locos/stock properly-painted. And so on..........................

 

What must be made clear in all of this is that the contribution of others to a project should always (must always!) be acknowledged, even to the point of repetition. Credit should never be taken (even by omission) for the work of others. It does happen! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Anglian]

Tony,

 

A question my father asked me a while ago – what makes Norman Solomon's track a degree better than that of others? I've seen that it looks perfect and works perfectly but so do some other layouts with track built by others. Is there something I'm missing that makes his work outstanding? Does the speed at which he works factor into his reputation?

 

Keith Armes 2mm track is beautiful and works faultlessly, he also builds for customers.

 

 

[Guest Jack Benson]

A question for Tony about the smaller of the DJH motor drives.

 

Is it suitable for a LMS Jinty sized loco or am I too optimistic?   

 

Thank you in advance.

 

JB

[landscapes]

22 minutes ago, Anglian said:

Tony,

 

A question my father asked me a while ago – what makes Norman Solomon's track a degree better than that of others? I've seen that it looks perfect and works perfectly but so do some other layouts with track built by others. Is there something I'm missing that makes his work outstanding? Does the speed at which he works factor into his reputation?

 

Keith Armes 2mm track is beautiful and works faultlessly, he also builds for customers.

 

 

Hi

 

As well as Norman Solomon their is also.

 

Norman Saunders of Just Tracks based in Swindon he also makes superb track work as well.

 

He has his own website to see his work.

 

He hand built all the pointwork for my Haymarket layout and I believe he built all the scenic track work for Gilbert’s Peterborough North.

 

Both experts in model railway track work.

 

David

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by landscapes

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

A typical sound and reasoned post, Tony,

 

If I can add to the 'professional' discussion, I'd already built scores of locomotives when I was still a teacher. After I'd abandoned the profession, I looked to other ways in which I could earn a living, which included loco-building, photography and writing. Things which previously had been hobbies. Did the fact that I was 'proficient' enough in these activities - proficient enough for me to earn  money by doing them - then make me a 'professional'? As 'professional' as I had been as a teacher? I suppose the principal difference was that no 'professional' qualification was necessary to build locos, nor take pictures nor write (though my being a teacher must have helped a bit, since I taught art/craft, photography and basic English - and basic Maths). 

 

Like you, I had a full order book, and it would still be full (or fuller?) were I still doing these things full-time, especially loco-building. 

 

As for 'buying in' help, I don't have the slightest problem with that. It's what I do all the time, though the 'buying' is often in kind. Though I've made track, I know it'll never be in the Solomon class, but I can participate in the making of DVDs. I've also made signals, but they're nowhere near to the same standard as those you build, nor those built by Mick Nicholson or Graham Nicholas. But in the last-mentioned case, a couple or so locos on Grantham and on Shap help out as 'payment'. My architectural model-making is not in the Wilson/Dawson class, but locos and photographs are excellent 'bartering' tools, and locos are also a good currency in exchange for baseboards and freight rolling stock. Photography is also very useful in getting locos/stock properly-painted. And so on..........................

 

What must be made clear in all of this is that the contribution of others to a project should always (must always!) be acknowledged, even to the point of repetition. Credit should never be taken (even by omission) for the work of others. It does happen! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I think just about everyone buys in some help - when we buy a kit we buy in help to make the parts of the kit - fortunately we don't have to pay a premium for the manufacturer to come to our premises to do it, but they are producing it for us. I guess that's why the brand of kit is almost always mentioned? Even scratch builders don't make the brass sheet etc., but that really is pushing the point!

[Clive Mortimore]

14 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

I think just about everyone buys in some help - when we buy a kit we buy in help to make the parts of the kit - fortunately we don't have to pay a premium for the manufacturer to come to our premises to do it, but they are producing it for us. I guess that's why the brand of kit is almost always mentioned? Even scratch builders don't make the brass sheet etc., but that really is pushing the point!

I tried to be a real scratchbuilder but my solvent didn't work on brass sheet so I went back to being a pretend scratchbulder with Slaters plastic card.

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I tried to be a real scratchbuilder but my solvent didn't work on brass sheet so I went back to being a pretend scratchbulder with Slaters plastic card.

 

I was thinking of you and @gobbler when I added the etc.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 minute ago, Bucoops said:

 

I was thinking of you and @gobbler when I added the etc.

Scott, aka gobbler, makes some lovely coaches. He did attend the Witham club for a short while but wasn't as far as I know making coaches at the time, if he was he should have showed them. The guys at Witham are very supportive of other peoples work.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Anglian said:

Tony,

 

A question my father asked me a while ago – what makes Norman Solomon's track a degree better than that of others? I've seen that it looks perfect and works perfectly but so do some other layouts with track built by others. Is there something I'm missing that makes his work outstanding? Does the speed at which he works factor into his reputation?

 

Keith Armes 2mm track is beautiful and works faultlessly, he also builds for customers.

 

 

A good question, Tim,

 

The speed at which Norman works is certainly a factor, and that speed doesn't compromise the quality at all.

 

In the case of Little Bytham, I was immensely fortunate in that he made the scenic-side trackwork as part of a DVD. He built the points/crossings off-site, then laid it all on to the baseboards here in less than two days. His method of laying and ballasting trackwork all in one go, then immediately weathering it, certainly speeds things up.

 

 

This is the south end pointwork shortly after it was laid, in 2008. It was then my job to install the point motors and wire it all up, before Norman returned  a couple of months later to integrate all my wiring into the control panel he'd built. His time here was less than four days, spread over two visits, though it took me several days to install the point motors and the wiring in between them. Obviously, time was spent in thorough testing afterwards. 

 

 

 

This is what that south end complex looks like now, with most of the scenic/architectural/signalling work complete (apologies if these have been seen before). 

 

The north end trackwork looks just as impressive, especially after further weathering. 

 

 

 

Again, these have been seen before, though, I hope, they illustrate the point (sorry about the pun!). 

 

As you know, all of this works as well as it looks. 

 

 

Norman Solomon also did the trackwork for the late David Jenkinson's Kendal in O Gauge. He also built most of the layout as well. 

 

I've seen other professionals' trackwork as well. 

 

 

Norman Saunders built and laid the scenic-side trackwork for Gilbert Barnatt's Peterborough North. This was all built off-site, and then put together; the difference being that Norman Saunders took the baseboard tops with him to lay the track (not the frames as well), which I don't think was the best idea because adjustment at the boards' edges have subsequently had to be made. Norman Solomon laid all LB's track on all the fully-erected baseboards, no adjustment being necessary afterwards. 

 

There's no doubt that Norman Saunders' trackwork looks very good (though the ballast here has been subsequently darkened to make it less desert-like), but I've had to alter some of it to get the best running; something I haven't had to do on any of Norman Solomon's trackwork. By altering, I mean 'easing' flangeways because some were too tight. In fairness, that could be a stock issue as well. Note also as well, that slip to the right appears to set-up a potentially conflicting move, with the slip not appearing to act as its own trap! 

 

In my many subsequent visits to Gilbert's, all seems to be running OK now, though I've yet to repair one point's operating mechanism. His darkening of the ballast has certainly helped. 

 

 

You mention Keith Ames' work, and here's an example; a commissioned double slip in N Gauge. Beautiful, don't you think? It doesn't look like 'normal' N Gauge track to me at all.

 

 

In comparison (or should that be contrast?), examples of mine and Rob Davey's pointwork. It works (very well, though the trap is really just a dummy), but I think it's fair to say it's not in the same class as the other examples (but thanks for your input, Rob). In fairness, this is 'only' on the MR/M&GNR bit of LB.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

54 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

A question for Tony about the smaller of the DJH motor drives.

 

Is it suitable for a LMS Jinty sized loco or am I too optimistic?   

 

Thank you in advance.

 

JB

Entirely-suitable, Jack,

 

It should fit with no problems whatsoever.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chamby]

10 hours ago, Anglian said:

 

I don't think the A14 did permit today, there were horrendous tailbacks in the area, the M11 Northbound looked blocked when I crossed over it and that's usually down to issues on the A14 westbound. Of all the days to be stuck in traffic, quite a few emergency vehicles lit up flying around. Tonight a neighbour told me her son can't get a train from Kings Cross until the morning. I stepped into my garden, about 3 miles to the south of Cambridge, around 15:00 hours and came straight back inside muttering 'that's killer heat today.'

 

We have had around 22 degrees in Cornwall for the last few days, very pleasant if slightly humid weather.   A few trains from upcountry were delayed yesterday owing to speed restrictions at the London end of the line, but apart from all the media hype, the “heatwave” completely passed us by.  Living by the sea has its advantages, the more the sun shines, the more the onshore wind picks up to keep us cool!

 

Re: ‘finescale’ trackwork, Peco seem to maintain that it is anything made with code 75 track rather than code 100, at least in OO scale.  For me, having accurately dimensioned sleepers has to be a key part of it too.  Peco’s more recent bullhead track looks the part, but I wouldn’t describe their Code 75 flat bottomed rail stuff as being finescale, especially the turnouts with hinged switch rails.  It just doesn’t quite look right enough for UK track, to deserve the finescale descriptor.

 

 

[Anglian]

Tony,

 

Thank you for a walk through some examples. Keith Armes 'N' D/S is a wonderful example. One thing that I have always noticed with LB but never commented on is just how precise the trackwork is. Very often, when looking down the line, on many layouts there are all sorts of wiggles. I know they happened in real railways, but perhaps never on the ECML?

 

I had no idea David Jenkinson had outsourced so much work. Was he really a layout designer, author and model coach builder?