Wright writes.....

[queensquare]

Attempting to define finescale, a word synonymous with MRJ, in the context of model railways is a whole can of worms which could easily fill an editorial in its own right. Its not a debate I particularly want to get into here, suffice to say that it involves the modeller going that extra mile, beyond what the kit or RTR manufacturers provide us with, in order to achieve our chosen goal. The length of that extra mile and the individual’s goals are the variables in the equation and consequently, we are immediately faced with the need for compromise. Like death and taxes, compromise is inevitable no matter how much time, space, money or ability we have.

 I believe it was Cyril Freezer who, rather tongue in cheek, said that there were enthusiasts for whom operation was all and that they would be happy with trains made up from a string of tennis balls so long as they were correctly signalled and carried the appropriate head and tail lamps. This, of course, is an extreme example but it illustrates the point that the level of compromise is dependant on the individuals’ goals, not some dictat laid down by the finescale police.

 

This is part of an editorial I wrote for MRJ a few years ago. As PMP said earlier, 'finescale' is a state of mind, it has only a passing acquaintance with scale and gauge. Its why the likes of LB and JBS's Totnes for example have graced the pages of MRJ despite being OO and N gauge respectively - despite the gauge, and to quote myself, both have definately gone that extra mile. 

 

Jerry

[PMP]

28 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Re: ‘finescale’ trackwork, Peco seem to maintain that it is anything made with code 75 track rather than code 100, at least in OO scale.  For me, having accurately dimensioned sleepers has to be a key part of it too.  Peco’s more recent bullhead track looks the part, but I wouldn’t describe their Code 75 flat bottomed rail stuff as being finescale, especially the turnouts with hinged switch rails.  It just doesn’t quite look right enough for UK track, to deserve the finescale descriptor.

 

 

Peco CD75 finescale flat bottom was introduced I recall in the mid 80’s, competing against the likes of Hornby/Lima/Shinohara/Atlas and their own CD100 streamline. With finer wheel standards coming more widely used at that time in OO it’s likely the finescale label was used to highlight its improved appearance over other types of track. As I mentioned in a post above ‘finescale’ means whatever the user wants it to mean,  just like ‘modern image’. 

You can intentionally lay track poorly, but it still has to work reliably, cd75 in this case.

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, Anglian said:

Tony,

 

Thank you for a walk through some examples. Keith Armes 'N' D/S is a wonderful example. One thing that I have always noticed with LB but never commented on is just how precise the trackwork is. Very often, when looking down the line, on many layouts there are all sorts of wiggles. I know they happened in real railways, but perhaps never on the ECML?

 

I had no idea David Jenkinson had outsourced so much work. Was he really a layout designer, author and model coach builder?

Tim,

 

I used to work for and with the late David Jenkinson on several occasions. He was a very-influential modeller, writer and publisher. 

 

We all have 'faults' (I should know!), and without wishing to speak any ill of the deceased, one of David's was that he didn't always acknowledge the work in full of others to his various projects. 

 

His excellent book on historical railway modelling does mention Norman Solomon's contribution to Kendal, but only really in passing. Norman built the baseboards, built the track, laid it and ballasted it, did all the wiring and built much of the scenery/structures, including the station canopies - incomplete at David's death. I'd say that's a fair bit more than just 'For some of the project, I sought the assistance of professional modeller, Norman Solomon' or words to that effect! 

 

The late Geoff Holt built most of the locos, and those which David built/modified had to be subsequently worked on by others, yet little mention is made of these facts. He was, however, a brilliant carriage-builder, and that must be acknowledged.

 

Norman Solomon suffers a great deal from omission. Much of his work on projects never gets the credit it's due in my opinion. That's why I always acknowledge his contribution to LB (and the contributions of others). Otherwise it's not fair, especially if others then 'take the credit'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Northmoor]

Three terms that are frequently misused:

1. Professional.  Often used to imply "demonstrating great competence", but only means you are paid to do it.  I once worked on the safty case for the Eurofighter Typhoon.  Nowehere does it state a requirement for anyone working on it to be professional, but everyone has to be competent, without which they wouldn't be paid to work on it.

2. Finescale.  See above.

3. Super-detailed.  I don't even know what MY definition is, probably that a RTR model's origins must be almost un-recognisable.  It does not mean, "I've cut off the tension-lock couplings, added a screw link and daubed some paint on the buffers". 

 

[grahame]

51 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Re: ‘finescale’ trackwork, Peco seem to maintain that it is anything made with code 75 track rather than code 100, at least in OO scale.  For me, having accurately dimensioned sleepers has to be a key part of it too.  Peco’s more recent bullhead track looks the part, but I wouldn’t describe their Code 75 flat bottomed rail stuff as being finescale, especially the turnouts with hinged switch rails.  It just doesn’t quite look right enough for UK track, to deserve the finescale descriptor.

 

Worse is Peco N gauge track where they brand code 55 as 'finescale' and yet the point blades are still code 80 operating over reduced height sleepers while the flangeway and crossing gaps belong to a very prehistoric era and the sleepers are a quasi-British/continental/American size and spacing to appeal to an international market. It's no wonder that hand-built 2mm track looks so superior.

 

G

[Tony Wright]

12 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Attempting to define finescale, a word synonymous with MRJ, in the context of model railways is a whole can of worms which could easily fill an editorial in its own right. Its not a debate I particularly want to get into here, suffice to say that it involves the modeller going that extra mile, beyond what the kit or RTR manufacturers provide us with, in order to achieve our chosen goal. The length of that extra mile and the individual’s goals are the variables in the equation and consequently, we are immediately faced with the need for compromise. Like death and taxes, compromise is inevitable no matter how much time, space, money or ability we have.

 I believe it was Cyril Freezer who, rather tongue in cheek, said that there were enthusiasts for whom operation was all and that they would be happy with trains made up from a string of tennis balls so long as they were correctly signalled and carried the appropriate head and tail lamps. This, of course, is an extreme example but it illustrates the point that the level of compromise is dependant on the individuals’ goals, not some dictat laid down by the finescale police.

 

This is part of an editorial I wrote for MRJ a few years ago. As PMP said earlier, 'finescale' is a state of mind, it has only a passing acquaintance with scale and gauge. Its why the likes of LB and JBS's Totnes for example have graced the pages of MRJ despite being OO and N gauge respectively - despite the gauge, and to quote myself, both have definately gone that extra mile. 

 

Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

 

What I would say is that John has definitely (please note the spelling!), definitely, definitely gone 'that extra mile', because he's done it all himself. I've had to rely on others. As I had to with Stoke Summit and Charwelton; both built in OO as well, and both featured in the MRJ. 

 

 

I don't think you can get more 'finescale' than this, do you? 

 

 

The judges at the Chiltern Association Show at St. Albans (of which I was one) certainly thought so, and he was presented with the Denis Moore Cup for outstanding scenery.

 

Will Totnes be at Wells again? 

 

The question was asked recently 'Could OO be considered as 'finescale'? 

 

 

 

Martyn Welch certainly thought so. 

 

And, now for something completely different. 

 

 

I've been asked to build a Parkside O Gauge van, to be featured later this year in BRM. So, here goes.......................

 

I'll make it as fine scale as I can.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[jwealleans]

Well, it's encouraging to see another magazine featuring kit building again.  I look forward to seeing it complete.

Edited July 26, 2019 by jwealleans

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Well, it's encouraging to see another magazine featuring kit building again.  I look forward to seeing it complete.

Debbie Wood, the new manager at BRM is keen to feature more 'how-to' articles, Jonathan,

 

I (obviously) think it's a good move (especially because she's asked me to provide some of the articles), and it's a definite move away from complete RTR-reliance in my book.

 

It's also a move into a larger scale for me (at least for this one).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[PMP]

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

And, now for something completely different. 

 

 

I've been asked to build a Parkside O Gauge van, to be featured later this year in BRM. So, here goes.......................

 

I'll make it as fine scale as I can.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

They are relatively simple but effective kits suited for beginners upwards. I’ve made a good number of them recently, one area to watch is the wheel tread to rear of brake shoe clearance, and if the solebar fits into a groove on the floor, that the groove is deep/wide enough for the solebar to sit accurately. Apart from that it’s nearly a shake the box kit

Edited July 26, 2019 by PMP

[t-b-g]

Some people get a "name" in the hobby for a certain aspect of what they do that gets attention. Yet they are often highly skilled in other areas.

 

Norman Solomon is well known for his track but is a superb scenic and structure modeller. He is probably good at locos etc. too but I haven't seen any so can't comment.

 

Barry Norman is another who could turn his hand to any task within the hobby and do a top rate job. Known for scenic work the GER tram in a recent MRJ really shows what an all rounder he is.

 

Geoff Taylor made his name doing buildings but his scenic work generally is as good as any. His portrayal of rock formations is just sublime.

 

Another Geoff, Kent this time, is a great modeller but prefers the non mechanical side of things. I am sure he could build superb track or loco mechanisms if he put his mind to it as he just has great skill in his fingers. He is presently working on a new signal for Black Lion Crossing and hopes to have it done for Wells show so he can do mechanical bits when needed!

 

All these (and no doubt others too) have a certain touch that lifts their work to another level.

 

Exactly what that is has escaped me so far. If I knew what it was, I would steal it!

[Clive Mortimore]

Finescale railway modelling? I am going to work backwards on this.

 

Railway Modelling? A model is a representation of an object, our Colonel use to use dark stones for the enemy tanks and light  coloured ones for our guns when he explained how the defenses would be set up. Obviously a railway model should be something that looks like a railway. The parameters of that are so wide, even within the small number of us who contribute to this thread.  

 

Scale? I think most railway modellers like to keep things looking a constant size, it is less painful on our eyes. I know I like my 00 scale models.

 

Fine? Well all the years I have been modelling I have met many fine people who also enjoy the hobby.

 

There you go a fine scale modeller is one who is a nice bloke or lady to know, who enjoys their model railway and maybe likes to keep every looking constant.

 

We all have our own expectations of our own modelling (or that done for us). We all have our own favorite types of layouts when viewing them at exhibitions, visiting friends, watching videos or looking at photos in a magazine or on the internet. What the next bloke does with his railway model, even if does not fit my limited likes, does not mean he is a greater or lesser modeller than me, he is a fellow railway modeller. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Tony Wright]

25 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Finescale railway modelling? I am going to work backwards on this.

 

Railway Modelling? A model is a representation of an object, our Colonel use to use dark stones for the enemy tanks and light  coloured ones for our guns when he explained how the defenses would be set up. Obviously a railway model should be something that looks like a railway. The parameters of that are so wide, even within the small number of us who contribute to this thread.  

 

Scale? I think most railway modellers like to keep things looking a constant size, it is less painful on our eyes. I know I like my 00 scale models.

 

Fine? Well all the years I have been modelling I have met many fine people who also enjoy the hobby.

 

There you go a fine scale modeller is one who is a nice bloke or lady to know, who enjoys their model railway and maybe likes to keep every looking constant.

 

We all have our own exceptions of our own modelling (or that done for us). We all have our own favorite types of layouts when viewing them at exhibitions, visiting friends, watching videos or looking at photos in a magazine or on the internet. What the next bloke does with his railway model, even if does not fit my limited likes, does not mean he is a greater or lesser modeller than me, he is a fellow railway modeller. 

'even within the small number of us who contribute to this thread.' 

 

Is that a relative term, Clive? 

 

Judging by the number of responses and (especially) the number of views to it, what constitutes a 'large' number, then? 

 

I think we also have to consider the many (and excellent) women railway modellers as well. They're just as much 'fellow' railway modellers, too.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Barry Ten]

Progress on my SE&CR D1 class (it could end up being an E1, too - the only real difference, as far as the kit is concerned, is whether

the rods are fluted or plain).

 

I thought I'd do what they always used to say in the magazines and build the tender first, and here it is, minor buffers

and a few details.

 

I thought "this is going well!" as the low-melt solder flowed effortlessly, and then realised that I still had my iron set to the normal

temperature! But no harm was done. I suppose it takes a lot of heat to melt even moderately-sized white metal castings. I dialled

it down for the subsequent work, erring on the side of caution.

 

The loco chassis is running nicely, and I've started on the superstructure. I've a feeling it's not going to be a really fast runner but

we'll see when all the bodywork's on. I ought to do some scale speed tests, as per recent conversation. Both my  AM10 fitted

prairies are quite slow at the upper voltage range but perhaps not unrealistically so.

 

 

 

Al

[Clive Mortimore]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'even within the small number of us who contribute to this thread.' 

 

Is that a relative term, Clive? 

 

Judging by the number of responses and (especially) the number of views to it, what constitutes a 'large' number, then? 

 

I think we also have to consider the many (and excellent) women railway modellers as well. They're just as much 'fellow' railway modellers, too.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

This thread has a large number of contributors when compared to other threads on this site. It is still a low number of the membership of RMweb and not all railway modellers are members of RMweb. Where do we draw our comparisons to make things relative? 

[polybear]

4 hours ago, Anglian said:

Tony,

 

A question my father asked me a while ago – what makes Norman Solomon's track a degree better than that of others? I've seen that it looks perfect and works perfectly but so do some other layouts with track built by others. Is there something I'm missing that makes his work outstanding? Does the speed at which he works factor into his reputation?

 

Keith Armes 2mm track is beautiful and works faultlessly, he also builds for customers.

 

 

 

I've been fortunate enough to attend one of Norman Solomon's track building classes at Missenden Abbey some years ago.  Can anyone say that he's the best - probably not, since there are others similarly skilled.  But in my mind he certainly is one of the best - he seems capable of repeatedly constructing and laying realistic, reliable trackwork to a very high standard.  The speed at which he can lay and ballast track in one go has to be seen to be believed....

Incidentally, if anyone reading this has a layout which includes ready-made common crossings from C&L (and possibly point blades also?) then there's a pretty good chance that you have trackwork made in part by Norman Solomon.  So if your layout should ever feature in one of the Magazines don't forget to give Norman a mention...  

Edited July 26, 2019 by polybear

[Tony Wright]

29 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hello Tony

 

This thread has a large number of contributors when compared to other threads on this site. It is still a low number of the membership of RMweb and not all railway modellers are members of RMweb. Where do we draw our comparisons to make things relative? 

'Where do we draw our comparisons to make things relative?'

 

You've just done it with your post above, Clive..................... 

[stewartingram]

Tony,

         Sorry to be a pain, but did you get chance to check the axle spacing on that generic SEF chassis kit yet?

 

Stewart

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by stewartingram

[Tony Wright]

18 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Tony,

         Sorry to be a pain, but did you get chance to check the axle spacing on that generic SEF chassis kit yet?

 

Stewart

 

You're never a pain, Stewart,

 

Sorry, and I should have made this clearer, I don't have the chassis. I made it for Dave Ellis at SEF, and he takes it to shows with his stand. 

 

Would an SEF 4F chassis do? It's more likely to match the wheel centres of the original Tri-ang Jinty frames.

 

 

Here's a pair, with different drive configurations.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

The question was asked recently 'Could OO be considered as 'finescale'? 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

It rather depends on which version of 00 you use, as there are many 00 "standards" for track and wheels.

 

Handbuilt track with fine flange ways , carefully laid out and ballasted, would most certainly look better than the RTR products with, wide flange ways, large switch/stock rail gaps, plastic crossings, etc. With EM and P4, the track is invariably built to the standards defined to the relevant Societies, which are closer in appearance to the real thing and therefore look somewhat more realistic or "finescale". Similarly, wheels with narrower tyres and smaller flanges, such as supplied for kits, also look better than those with wide, shiny tyres and deep flanges.

 

So perhaps the answer is "sometimes", depending on the modellers desire to create a more realistic looking model, irrespective of scale or gauge.

[rowanj]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Three terms that are frequently misused:

1. Professional.  Often used to imply "demonstrating great competence", but only means you are paid to do it.  I once worked on the safty case for the Eurofighter Typhoon.  Nowehere does it state a requirement for anyone working on it to be professional, but everyone has to be competent, without which they wouldn't be paid to work on it.

 

 

It actually means more than that, if used properly ( not that that seems to be much of an issue these days). It means either belonging to a profession, or being paid for a work which is essentially full-time. An inference of competence is understood, but is not explicit. Surely it would be simpler just to laud the skills of the Norman Solomon's of this world, and only worry about their professionalism if seeking a service from them. Or am I just being pedantic?

 

in the meantime, here is my thoroughly unprofessional work in progress of a Dave Alexander N10.

 

 

[Evertonian]

"to illicit praise or sympathy" .......  surely elicit  Tony?

 

Regards

Chris K

[Atso]

I feel that a few days away from the forum has caused me to largely miss (and have to catch up on) some interesting thoughts and discussions.

 

As I have posted before, I'm hand building all the track for Hadley Wood. In the fiddle yard, this will be mostly soldered copper clad construction, while the front will be Finetrax code 40 N gauge track (all those wonderful chairs!). I have to admit that I was worried about expansion issues in the fiddle yard but, following Jerry's advice, I kept rail lengths relatively short (which makes building much easier) and laid the rails into a bed of PVA with 0.5mm expansion gaps. Yesterday was the first real test that the track I've laid to date had and I'm happy to report that I found no evidence of buckling or shorts.

 

Below is a photo of the progress to date. Not a lot of additional track laying has taken place for a little while, as my initial stockpile has been depleted. I'm also slowly replacing the tie bars on the turnouts with glass fibre PCB as I've found the originals were prone to breaking (thanks again Jerry for the advice!). The large gap towards the rear is the result of the end and middle boards not being joined together at present! The track curving to the left currently terminates around two inches before it would enter the scenic section.

 

 

Below is a screen grab of the track plan to show just far I have to go! I've always excepted that this will be a long term project and with the exception of the wiring (being done by my father, while he starts to teach me how to both work out the electrics and maintain them), I'm looking to do everything above board level myself.

 

 

With regard to the finescale discussion, while I like to make my locomotive bodies and stock as accurately as I can, I do also subscribe to the "if it looks right, then it is right" approach to modelling. I'm also constrained by some practicalities of the available space, as I could not have 12 inch radius curves (hidden in tunnels!) if I was working in 2mm Finescale; at the very least, I could not expect to run pacifics around them!

 

Scales speeds is also something I've been looking into. Hadley Wood was on a rising gradient to Potters Bar and therefore Down trains would usually be slower than their Up equivalents. I have previously looked at some tabulated data and (from memory, as I don't have the information to hand at the moment) found that while Pacifics could manage 60 to70mph on a Down express (dependant on loadings), anything smaller would be struggling between 35 and 50 mph on a similar formation. Up trains on the other hand...

 

On Hadley Wood, a 60 mph run would result in the locomotive being visible for approximately 15 seconds before disappearing into the other tunnel.

 

 

[stewartingram]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

You're never a pain, Stewart,

 

Sorry, and I should have made this clearer, I don't have the chassis. I made it for Dave Ellis at SEF, and he takes it to shows with his stand. 

 

Would an SEF 4F chassis do? It's more likely to match the wheel centres of the original Tri-ang Jinty frames.

 

 

Here's a pair, with different drive configurations.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony. I shall give Dave a ring sometime next week, I have some other bits to sort out with him. You probably missed it but I gave the dimensions as 31 + 33mm (from the front of course). When the J17 is done, I have a pair of resin J19s to update as well. They may not be perfect, but should provide me with reasonable layout locos.

[thegreenhowards]

 

Having started all the J17 debate a few weeks ago, I’m pleased to report that my own is now finished and weathered. the hot weather over the last few days meant I set up a workshop under an umbrella in the garden...and very pleasant working it was too!. Here are some pictures and a short video. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by thegreenhowards
adding video link

[Theakerr]

On the subject of track building, a local Gentleman hand built a narrow gauge Indonesian sugar cane layout.   It ran beautifully but he decided that a narrow gauge sugar cane railway would not run beautifully, so he dutifully modified his perfect track so that the trains waddled as they ran.  It still ran well without de-railing but now it wobbled.