Wright writes.....

[scottystitch]

48 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'Of course, any variant after 1968 should rightly be called "Theseus’s ship"/"Triggers broom" whatever...'

 

Or Murphy's axe, or...........................

 

FLYING SCOTSMAN had so many variations throughout its life that anything after its first few years could have any epithet from the above. Boilers/valves/tenders/domes/drive-side/chimneys, etc...................

 

 

You mention 1968; well, here she is around then. Complete with two tenders (neither of which she'd previously towed). She was never left-hand drive in LNER days, and wasn't an A3 until post-War. During her later LNER life, she towed an A4 tender, as she did for all her BR existence - a streamlined non-corridor sort. Just for a greater variety, both the tenders shown in this shot had cut-down rears from their time behind A4s in the '48 Exchanges. No A3 ever looked like this in LNER days (or any previous days), but this is the prototype, so does it matter? Alan Pegler never claimed she was an accurate representation of what she'd ever been. 

 

However, by having the Kylchap double pot replaced in early 1963, after he bought her from BR, she was much-reduced as a locomotive. 

 

 

The fitting of the Kylchap double chimney to 60103 (and all her sisters) transformed these veterans into 8P equivalents, and they cheerfully ran the same diagrams as any of their bigger cousins. Indeed, by 1960 (a bit earlier as well) they were running to the new diesel diagrams (because the EE Type 4s weren't up to the job) - a Newcastle-return trip in a day; unheard of even when the A3s were new, except under test conditions. Soundly spanked by the GWR 'Castles' in the earlier exchanges, latterly the Gresley non-streamlined Pacifics were, even in old age, doing work which no 'Castle' could ever have done, even after some of those 4-6-0s were fitted with double chimneys. 

 

 

The only downside to the double chimney was the smoke obscuring the driver's view, because of the softer, more-efficient exhaust. So, the German blinkers were the answer. 

 

 

As to the aesthetics of a final-manifestation A3, I know where I stand. I think this is magnificent! 

 

Odd isn't it, that right at the end of their (40 years, in some cases) lives, as motive power units, the A3s were at their very best. 60052 (along with 60041) was the last of her line. What a great shame that an A3 in this guise was not preserved, especially with a GNR tender.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

As always, your short essays on the ECML's finest are fascinating and interesting in equal measure. Thanks for your measured thoughts.

 

As it happens I'm inclined to agree with regards A3s deflectors, much more handsome than sans. They add a bit of balance.

 

When I was a boy, growing up in the 80s, I was smitten with the A4, having encountered 60009 a number of times at Perth General. However, as I grew up and began to appreciate different things in life, and then drifting towards an engineering career (admittedly aeronautical in general and helicopters in particular) I found myself re-evaluating. There is something about the A4 that doesn't quite sit right. With a more mature head on, I find them too compact, and that long french curve from footplate forward towards the cylinders jars. I'm not even convinced it looks better with the valance attached!

 

I appreciate this may be viewed as heresy on this thread, but I am now firmly in Princess Coronation camp these days. In my opinion the most handsome and purposeful British Pacific ever built. To me, a perfectly balanced locomotive, aesthetically speaking.  And am I correct in thinking they were the most powerful (excluding the P2) ? 

 

How would Stanier's finest have fared on the ECML, do you think?  Where do you stand on them in general?

 

Best

 

Scott

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Please can you take the smoke deflectors off and paint it a nicer colour

What, like Maroon.      

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

13 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

What, like Maroon.      

 

Jamie

Jamie what are you on about, surely you mean Crimson Lake. Maroon is what it was called when they couldn't be bothered to apply the right undercoat or multitude layers of varnish.

 

In one of David Jenkinson's essays on locomotive colours he recalled an old chap saying to his wife that the Compound in the NRM was a better colour than the Western next to it. They had both be painted with the same batch of maroon paint at the same time. Shape, contrasting colours and lining made the Compound look a different colour to the slab sided single colour on the Western.

 

No matter what it is called, Jamie is right,  the red Mr Johnson applied to the locomotives of the Midland Railway is incredibly pleasing to ones eyes.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[melmoth]

58 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

Ummm, well not sure about this.  The Act of Uniformity 1662 required clergy to make an oath of allegiance to King Charles, resulting in the Great Ejection of some 2000 clergy who would not confirm.  Hence the start of non-conformism. Still not resolved, the present Anglican - Methodist talks will drag on for a few years yet.

 

Bill

 

Yes, but those ejected were not then burnt at the stake as would probably have been the case a century or so beforehand...

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

What, like Maroon.      

 

Like so.

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Sorry as well, here, Graham,

 

I couldn't resist, but where are the loco's lamps? 

Work in progress, Tony - work in progress. All will lamped up by Peterborough show in December (I've gone n said it now!)

 

Electric warning flashes on a 'Scot' in 1958 as well? From my observations, these didn't appear until 1960 on ex-LMS locos (perhaps '59 on a few).

Yes, I spotted that. A little anomaly. Iain is aiming more for early '60s rather than late '50s.

 

Looking good though.

 

I hope that Bachmann 'Porthole' carriage was of use.

Currently doing service in the Caledonian rake no less - short of Mk1 FOs!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, melmoth said:

 

Yes, but those ejected were not then burnt at the stake as would probably have been the case a century or so beforehand...

 

That was the Catholic way (Cramner, Latimer & Ridley).  The Church of England preferred, under the auspices of the state, to hang, draw and quarter.  Take your pick .....

 

Bill

[jamie92208]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Like so.

Like this Clive.

 

 

A pub sign in Huddersfield next to the Midland's Branch from Mirfield.  I thought that the V2 looked very fetching in Crimson Lake.

One of my friends once painted an A4 in lined Crimson Lake and gave it the name plate Cuckoo.

 

None of these are as bad as this pub sign seen on the road to Keighley going out of Halifax.

Quite what a GWR loco is doing alongside the Queensbury lines I don't know.

 

Jamie

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

As always, your short essays on the ECML's finest are fascinating and interesting in equal measure. Thanks for your measured thoughts.

 

As it happens I'm inclined to agree with regards A3s deflectors, much more handsome than sans. They add a bit of balance.

 

When I was a boy, growing up in the 80s, I was smitten with the A4, having encountered 60009 a number of times at Perth General. However, as I grew up and began to appreciate different things in life, and then drifting towards an engineering career (admittedly aeronautical in general and helicopters in particular) I found myself re-evaluating. There is something about the A4 that doesn't quite sit right. With a more mature head on, I find them too compact, and that long french curve from footplate forward towards the cylinders jars. I'm not even convinced it looks better with the valance attached!

 

I appreciate this may be viewed as heresy on this thread, but I am now firmly in Princess Coronation camp these days. In my opinion the most handsome and purposeful British Pacific ever built. To me, a perfectly balanced locomotive, aesthetically speaking.  And am I correct in thinking they were the most powerful (excluding the P2) ? 

 

How would Stanier's finest have fared on the ECML, do you think?  Where do you stand on them in general?

 

Best

 

Scott

Thanks Scott,

 

I have nothing but admiration for Stanier's 'Big-Uns', the 'Princess Coronations'. As a skoolboy 'spotter, I saw all but one, universally calling them 'Semis'. 

 

I don't know how much you've followed this thread, but I've not long ago built one, from a DJH kit, which currently is being painted by Geoff Haynes.

 

 

It will emerge as 46245 CITY OF LONDON, which ran on the ECML between Kings Cross and Doncaster return in 1963 on a special. Apparently, the run lacked 'sparkle'. 

 

'Most powerful' is a subjective statement/conclusion/opinion, etc. Certainly, for the road they were designed to run on, the big Stanier 4-6-2s were perfect. 

 

 

Of course, in terms of brute haulage-capacity, nothing touched a P2, though the design was flawed (which Thompson obliterated into a class even more flawed, but in different ways!)  I personally think this is the best-looking P2 manifestation, as EARL MARISCHAL as first built. It doesn't have the COCK's clutter on the footplate, and it's before the disfiguring, massive deflectors were added. I built this for Mark Allatt, and Ian Rathbone painted it.

 

 

In terms of tractive effort (a rather specious measure of strength), the W1 (up to 1957) had a higher rating (41,435 lb., as opposed to the Duchess' 40,000 lb.). It was also heavier. It certainly was very powerful, but not as fleet-of-foot as the A4s. I built this from a SE Finecast kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it.  

 

Latterly, BR rated the Thompson A2/3s and Peppercorn A2s as having the highest tractive effort for a passenger loco, at 40,430 lb. I doubt if either of those classes could have matched a 'Semi' at absolute power, but they certainly could pull. 

 

 

As they can as models; I built this A2 from a DJH kit and Ian Rathbone painted it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Niels]

5 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

 

I appreciate this may be viewed as heresy on this thread, but I am now firmly in Princess Coronation camp these days. In my opinion the most handsome and purposeful British Pacific ever built. To me, a perfectly balanced locomotive, aesthetically speaking.  And am I correct in thinking they were the most powerful (excluding the P2) ? 

 

How would Stanier's finest have fared on the ECML, do you think?  Where do you stand on them in general?

Scott

 

On a power/ ton basis Britannia was most powerful.

The LNER A2s were higher tractive effort and used less coal.

A four cylinder LMS pacific was tested on LNER against A4s and royal Scott and came not best.

Best looking to my eyes were A2/2.Long and racers.

[Ray Flintoft]

On ‎07‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 08:35, dibateg said:

I've been away from the thread for a while, and there has been a lot of chat to catch up on. 60831 was a Leicester GC engine and I also built a model of it from the Nu Cast kit, with that lovely cast whitemetal chassis! I think my 4mm Proscale V2s - both built by Allen Hammet went to Gilbert. I had to have one in 7mm, as they are just such magnificent engines. Here is my Finney one in the process of being weathered.

What a superb model . Like 60831 , 60886 ended its career at York . It was something of a favourite with shedmaster Geoff Bird & was kept in very clean condition right up to withdrawal in May 1966 following damage to it's middle cylinder & valve gear .Mr Bird kept it's middle con-rod in his office & it is now fitted to "GREEN ARROW " so at least some of it still exists .

                                                                        Ray .

[drmditch]

Re: 1472 et seq.

My post on this locomotive above was meant to be slightly to tongue-in-cheek.

I am currently (last iteration at 11am and 2pm tomorrow) delivering a tour/talk/demonstration regarding this engine and why it is so famous.

This covers all of the points Tony mentions above, plus a few more such as the initially unsatisfactory design of the frames.

 

I did mention this on RMweb a few weeks ago, but of those attending no-one has identified themselves as a follower of this forum.

So if anyone is visiting Locomotion at Shildon tomorrow do come and say hello.

 

I confess I do like GNR apple green, but I also like the engineering concept of the double Kylchap and I think it is a good idea if the Driver can see the signals.

 

To risk further controversy, here is another scenario:

Gresley is quoted by the late Dr Hughes as saying that when the licence fee for the Kylchap ran out, he would equip all his large engines with them. If Sir Nigel had not died untimely and if BR had had a more enlightened and gradual dieselisation policy perhaps we would seen a large fleet of double Kylchap V2s in the 1940s. Since (other than the A4s) Doncaster's previous attempts at smoke deflectors were untidy and unsuccessful , perhaps the said V2s would have had larger deflectors as fitted to Humourist in 1947. (It might have been unlikely that a German example would have been copied at that date.)

 

I am tempted to model a V2 with those features!

[90164]

5 hours ago, bbishop said:

 

That was the Catholic way (Cramner, Latimer & Ridley).  The Church of England preferred, under the auspices of the state, to hang, draw and quarter.  Take your pick .....

 

Bill

Nothing to do with the Catholic way (or the Protestant way. Burning at the stake was the proscribed punishment for heretics, of any description. So Henty VIII had heretics burnt. Being hung, drawn annd quartered was the punishment for traitors. The Catholic priests executed in the reign of Elizabeth were regarded as traitors, as owing their allegiances to a foreign power (the Pope).

[Buhar]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I couldn't resist, but where are the loco's lamps? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

They're LMS/LMR lamps so they're black and you can't pick them out at that distance.  I know Graham has confessed otherwise, but it's worth a go.

[Manxcat]

13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Either way, it seems popular to depict an event taking place at a church, if one is modelled on a layout.

 

And a wedding as well? And a car crash in the road outside? And a building on fire? And a brawl at the pub? And a foxhunt? And the road up? And????????????????? But, we seem to have been here before! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony,

Several years ago, before we became friends, I heard you saying virtually everything you have mentioned above when looking at a layout. I had been planning a wedding cameo at the church on Fairhaven Road. Your words made me decide not to follow the norm and instead I just placed a few clergy outside having a chat.

 

I have to admit though that, having spent a fair bit on some specialist wedding figures, a carriage and a photographer whose camera flashed at the push of a button, I moved them to the reception at the main hotel on the layout, far from the church!

 

Archie

[Chamby]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

What, like Maroon.      

 

Jamie

 

To my eye, the pre-nationalisation LMS black with crimson and cream lining suited the Semi’s best.  Marvellous!

 

And the BR Express blue really works on the A4... especially when hauling a full rake of blood and custard stock.  Sir Nigel Gresley wore it well.  I thought Tornado also looked especially striking when I first saw her in BR Express blue.  One of my most vivid recollections...

[Tony Wright]

Rather different from my normal builds...........................................

 

 

 

My work on the Alan Gibson 517 Class in EM is now finished (I can't be ar$ed getting friction-fit wheels to work). 

 

A very nice little kit indeed!

 

 

[jamie92208]

You've mentioned all the cliches Tony except thd bus on a bridge.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

16 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

To my eye, the pre-nationalisation LMS black with crimson and cream lining suited the Semi’s best.  Marvellous!

 

In that livery the lining was actually maroon rather than crimson lake.

[Tony Teague]

24 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

You've mentioned all the cliches Tony except thd bus on a bridge.

 

Jamie

 

...or trains on the track,...

[Barry Ten]

On the subject of Duchesses...

 

In the early 1980s a teenaged mate and I used to go along to Bridgend model railway club. There were some very skilled older modellers there, quite elderly gentlemen even then - I remember one of them only had one eye - and one or two of which primarily interested in modelling the Lancashire & Yorkshire. They were nice enough but didn''t really have much to say to me or my mate Dave, with our RTR engines which we liked to run on the huge test track upstairs in the club room. Then one week I brought in my Duchess which I had attempted to detail and modify into City of Manchester, with cut down deflectors, a gap in the running plate, and a plastic extension to the rear truck to try to represent the frame extensions. It was all quite crudely done (I was only 15 at the time) but "word came down" that Ken (one of the L&Y chaps, if I remember correctly) had been looking at it and asked if one of the young lads had done it. He seemed to approve of the modifications, or at least the work that had gone into them, and I felt like I'd gone up a step in modelling circles. I've still got the Duchess, too.

 

Al

Edited August 8, 2019 by Barry Ten
typo

[ArthurK]

Some pages back there was a discussion about splashers on the V2. I have just unearthed the photos I took in 1974 when it visited Carnforth.  I took the opportunity to clamour onto the footplate to take a number of shots from a viewpoint not normally available. Needless to say I was spotted and politely (!) told to come down from there. I didn't mind as I already had the photos that I wanted. This is  one one them clearly showing the splasher over  the front driving wheel.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by ArthurK
Grammar

[thegreenhowards]

21 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hello Andy, Tony and anyone who knows the answer,

 

You mention that the Mousa model lacks the corridor side sliding ventilators on the end door Third Corridor, did the all door corridor coaches have their corridor side windows fitted with sliding ventilators later in life? I am in the process of making a diagram 115 (and a 52 ft FK diagram 140) from Hornby Railroad coaches and just want to make sure I get them as right as I can.

Hi Clive,

 

I’m away at the moment so can’t check my reference material. I think the comment was in the Orange Campling book on LNER Coach diagrams and referred to end vestibule diagrams. I’ll check when I get back and confirm.

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

I have a recollection of removing the vents from alternate corridor windows on Kirk Gresleys when building them for Grantham.  That was based on the yellow book and correspondence with Nick Campling.

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, Manxcat said:

 

Tony,

Several years ago, before we became friends, I heard you saying virtually everything you have mentioned above when looking at a layout. I had been planning a wedding cameo at the church on Fairhaven Road. Your words made me decide not to follow the norm and instead I just placed a few clergy outside having a chat.

 

I have to admit though that, having spent a fair bit on some specialist wedding figures, a carriage and a photographer whose camera flashed at the push of a button, I moved them to the reception at the main hotel on the layout, far from the church!

 

Archie

I don't mind cameos on layouts, Archie; as long as they're not overdone.

 

One layout I've seen recently, featured a burning building - with real smoke, which seemed to amuse the kids. Though buildings can and do catch fire (and this one really was ablaze!), the area is usually cordoned off, and any adjacent railway temporarily closed. There was a busy station just opposite the fire, yet trains still ran and none of the waiting passengers even turned to look at the excitement just behind them. 

 

The layout won the 'most-entertaining' prize at a show (at which I was a judge), which must say something. However, with regard to observation of the prototype (of which 'drum' I'm always banging), the builders must have all lost their specs! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.