Wright writes.....

[D.Platt]

Hi Tony,

Just had a catch up, how fast this thread moves is quite amazing and the subjects from V2s, hung drawn and quartered !! cameos on layouts, I had the pleasure to visit the miniature wonderland in Hamburg a few years ago that was quite mind blowing .

Anyway back to now and I was wondering which Duchess escaped you ? The only steam class that I nearly cleared were the Britannia’s, Lord Hurcomb being the missing one, I have seen a photo of it at Manchester Victoria,  my main spotting station in my early youth and it’s a what if !

When you made your DJH Duchess a few weeks ago again you inspired me to dig my late brothers 75% finished model out and try and complete it , he had motor fitted and a running chassis, I’ve just fitted the cylinders and completed the valve gear , just some more body detailing and then I will be attempting to complete it to Duchess of Hamilton, I surprised my son who is into his railways by this choice, he thought I would do Manchester but he will be able to run the loco on his layout one day in the future and remember his uncle and dad

[robertcwp]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

There was no date, Robert,

 

But I surmised summer 1964. 

 

Good to see you over the weekend. I'll see what I can get for those locos of yours.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Good to see you and Mo too. 

 

The winged thistle headboard only came into use in March 1964 per the Dave Peel book. Ballymoss has its unusual curved lower corners to the yellow warning panel in the photo. The image is not clear enough to see whether it still has its original fabricated bogies rather than the later cast ones (not sure when they changed). By the Summer of 1965 the Flying Scotsman formations had changed again and typically there would have been two maroon Mark II FKs inside the brake at the London end.  So, it has to be Summer 1964.

[D.Platt]

Afternoon Tony and all,

 Funny how after posting about Duchesses that this months copy of Steam Days drops though the letter box with an article showing colour photos of Duchesses, now I will be attempting a maroon loco and I remember my late brother having quite a heated debate with the then proprietor of Precision Paints regarding the shades of maroon on Duchesses, my brothers argument was that the original shade was a lighter one than that applied later on, looking at photos pre 1962 seems to bear this up as photos from 62/64 do seem a darker shade, so was there a change in paint specs from the first ones being painted to the last ones being repainted?  or is it in the mind or the colour film of the day ? 

                                            Dennis 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Hi Tony,

Just had a catch up, how fast this thread moves is quite amazing and the subjects from V2s, hung drawn and quartered !! cameos on layouts, I had the pleasure to visit the miniature wonderland in Hamburg a few years ago that was quite mind blowing .

Anyway back to now and I was wondering which Duchess escaped you ? The only steam class that I nearly cleared were the Britannia’s, Lord Hurcomb being the missing one, I have seen a photo of it at Manchester Victoria,  my main spotting station in my early youth and it’s a what if !

When you made your DJH Duchess a few weeks ago again you inspired me to dig my late brothers 75% finished model out and try and complete it , he had motor fitted and a running chassis, I’ve just fitted the cylinders and completed the valve gear , just some more body detailing and then I will be attempting to complete it to Duchess of Hamilton, I surprised my son who is into his railways by this choice, he thought I would do Manchester but he will be able to run the loco on his layout one day in the future and remember his uncle and dad

Lovely stuff,

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

46231 was the one 'Semi' which escaped me, as did 46210 among the 'Prinnies'. 45508 was the only 'Pat' I never saw, and 46109 was the only 'Scot'. Is there a pattern here? 

 

I did see all the 'Brits', but my last one 'copped' was a bit of a cheat in a way. I'd learned that 70041 was in Crewe Works, so booked a pass. She was there (or should that be he?) in the 1926 erecting shop, but only the frames, boiler and cab were together. The tender was elsewhere, but both deflectors (with names attached) were alongside. As for the wheels and motion? Could I consider it a 'cop'. Honour was satisfied a month later, when Sir John appeared at Chester on a running-in turn.  

 

I've written before about the dilemma facing trainspotters when they visited loco works. On my first visit to Crewe Works, the last 9Fs were just being erected. Two or three were outside the paintshop, complete, but still in primer. Their cast front numbers confirmed them as 'cops'. However, the last ones were just 'kits' in the shops. Could they be 'cops' as well?

 

Just one point about your 'Duchess'. All the Stanier Pacifics had 3', nine-spoke bogie wheels.  You've got too-big wheels with too many spokes. They really are worth changing.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, D.Platt said:

Afternoon Tony and all,

 Funny how after posting about Duchesses that this months copy of Steam Days drops though the letter box with an article showing colour photos of Duchesses, now I will be attempting a maroon loco and I remember my late brother having quite a heated debate with the then proprietor of Precision Paints regarding the shades of maroon on Duchesses, my brothers argument was that the original shade was a lighter one than that applied later on, looking at photos pre 1962 seems to bear this up as photos from 62/64 do seem a darker shade, so was there a change in paint specs from the first ones being painted to the last ones being repainted?  or is it in the mind or the colour film of the day ? 

                                            Dennis 

Good afternoon Dennis,

 

The subject of BR maroon is one fraught with difficulty, and I don't feel qualified to comment. 

 

My own memory (which faded long ago!) tells me that the maroon locos' colour was different from the maroon carriages' colour.

 

As for colour film (and subsequent printing), beware!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[teaky]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

.........

 

May I please thank all those with whom I spoke? Particularly Scott - a rare breed these days; a 22 year old modeller! Keen as mustard and a future 'pupil'. 

 

May I also thank Chris Challis and his team for organising such a splendid show? 

 

Your future pupil is called Ross, Tony.  (Remember, he joked about his mum watching too much of the BBC's Poldark.)

[robertcwp]

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Dennis,

 

The subject of BR maroon is one fraught with difficulty, and I don't feel qualified to comment. 

 

My own memory (which faded long ago!) tells me that the maroon locos' colour was different from the maroon carriages' colour.

 

As for colour film (and subsequent printing), beware!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I believe the paint used on the engines was of a different specification to that used on coaching stock as it needed to be more heat-resistant. Also, the painting techniques will have differed. Whether it was a different shade is another matter and probably impossible to find out for sure at this distance. Paint finishes also change colour due to wear and exposure to sunlight and reds do not necessarily go lighter, at least not initially. My recollection of seeing late maroon Mark I survivors is that they were more brown than red.

[jamie92208]

38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Lovely stuff,

 

ve written before about the dilemma facing trainspotters when they visited loco works. On my first visit to Crewe Works, the last 9Fs were just being erected. Two or three were outside the paintshop, complete, but still in primer. Their cast front numbers confirmed them as 'cops'. However, the last ones were just 'kits' in the shops. Could they be 'cops' as well?

 

Tony. 

I had exactly the same dilema in a different era when touring Doncaster works when the 56's were being built. They ranged from comp,ete painted locos to sets of frames that were just delivered from IIRC Crewe.  My mate and I had a discussion about the ethics and decuded that if the engine and frames were on their bogies wjth cabs and the bodyshell and the number identified on the attached paperwork, then they counted as Cops.  Very ironic as Keith and I were both cops.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

45 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

My own memory (which faded long ago!) tells me that the maroon locos' colour was different from the maroon carriages' colour.

 

Tony,

 

I'm afraid that I cannot agree - I spent many hours on Birmingham Snow Hill station at the time that the 'Westerns' were being introduced.

 

The ex-works maroon locos were an exact match for a clean maroon coach, though the mass of unlined maroon could fool the eye into thinking that the loco was a richer shade than the lined coach.

 

Close up, though, it was evident that the same paint had been used; moreover, the contemporary railway press confirmed that the intention was for the loco to match its train.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Clive Mortimore]

27 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I believe the paint used on the engines was of a different specification to that used on coaching stock as it needed to be more heat-resistant. Also, the painting techniques will have differed. Whether it was a different shade is another matter and probably impossible to find out for sure at this distance. Paint finishes also change colour due to wear and exposure to sunlight and reds do not necessarily go lighter, at least not initially. My recollection of seeing late maroon Mark I survivors is that they were more brown than red.

I am sure I read that when building the Westerns Crewe used the loco maroon, as they had on the LMS pacifics, and Swindon used the coach maroon. When new there was no apparent visible difference. When due for shopping the Crewe locos had discoloured towards a browny maroon and the Swindon locos were more pink in colour.

 

I recall seeing many dirty red Westerns, and later dirty blue ones. Most of all how lovely the only green one I saw looked.

 

Warships always looked slightly pinkish when their paint wore.

[ArthurK]

23 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I had exactly the same dilema in a different era when touring Doncaster works when the 56's were being built. They ranged from comp,ete painted locos to sets of frames that were just delivered from IIRC Crewe.  My mate and I had a discussion about the ethics and decuded that if the engine and frames were on their bogies wjth cabs and the bodyshell and the number identified on the attached paperwork, then they counted as Cops.  Very ironic as Keith and I were both cops.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

We visited Doncaster works at that time.

 

ArthurK

 

[James Fitzjames]

On 09/08/2019 at 10:47, grahame said:

 

I certainly wouldn't have hung out washing near a steam railway line. All those smuts, soot and muck that would have got on it. 

;-)

G

Prototype for everything: there's a wonderful photo of washing hung out on the boundary fence at Fort William, extending for about 50 metres, with an NBR C class belching stour all over it...

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, teaky said:

Your future pupil is called Ross, Tony.  (Remember, he joked about his mum watching too much of the BBC's Poldark.)

How stupid of me, though I'm hopeless with names these days! I knew it had a Scottish sound about it.

 

Seriously, how refreshing to find a young person keen on modelling? He's watched my numerous DVDs and still not been put off! 

 

Many thanks, Rob,

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, teaky said:

Your future pupil is called Ross, Tony.  (Remember, he joked about his mum watching too much of the BBC's Poldark.)

 

 

...and what more appropriate setting for a Poldark mention than Wells Town Hall (as featured frequently in the series as George

Warleggan's bank).

 

My old comprehensive school popped up in last week's episode of Keeping Faith, too, even though it's miles away from Camarthenshire.

 

 

Very nice to see Tony, Mo and other friends at Railwells over the weekend. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole event. I was rather sad when

it was all over, such is the anticipation each year. However, an excellent Thai in the restaurant near The Swan soon put matters right.

 

Al

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Barry Ten

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Tony,

 

I'm afraid that I cannot agree - I spent many hours on Birmingham Snow Hill station at the time that the 'Westerns' were being introduced.

 

The ex-works maroon locos were an exact match for a clean maroon coach, though the mass of unlined maroon could fool the eye into thinking that the loco was a richer shade than the lined coach.

 

Close up, though, it was evident that the same paint had been used; moreover, the contemporary railway press confirmed that the intention was for the loco to match its train.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks John,

 

But I think the jury's out on this one. 

 

 

 

My memory is that the 'Semis' in BR red were lighter in tint than the coaching stock (assuming that both loco and tender were covered in the same paint!). 

 

Poor scans, I admit, but, please (all) observe copyright restrictions. 

 

Perhaps a professional model painter will enlighten us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

[D.Platt]

Tony

 Thanks for your comments I should have known that you would pick up on the bogie wheels they are just the Romford ones supplied with the kit, it’s cost me a few quid up to now ,somewhere lost from me receiving it from my nephew a coupling rod had been lost so I ended up having to buy a valve gear set off comet and a set of transfers off Fox for a maroon Duchesses doesn’t come cheap but I will replace those wheels in the grand cost of things it will be well worth it.

Talking of wheel diameters I went to the GCR model exhibition (I left some stuff with Mo for you a give to kids sorry if it wasn’t any use to you ) anyway while at Loughborough I went into the sheds and stood next to 45305 my eldest lad who stands six foot five was impressed with the size of the wheels and asked what size they were I said I think they are six foot but I was looking at the top of the rim and I am five foot ten ,it was only when we moved up to 45491 which I presume has a new wheel set and that I realised how much the wear on the tyres altered appearance of the loco , so when we use Romford wheels we can always use smaller sizes, was it two inches wear on driving wheel tyres,  I wonder if it’s the same on bogie wheels ?

Back to shades of maroon at the back of my mind I think I read somewhere the earlier Duchesses were a paler maroon, was the original Hornby Doublo model City of London  in that lighter shade?

 

Dennis 

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks John,

 

But I think the jury's out on this one. 

 

 

 

My memory is that the 'Semis' in BR red were lighter in tint than the coaching stock (assuming that both loco and tender were covered in the same paint!). 

 

Poor scans, I admit, but, please (all) observe copyright restrictions. 

 

Perhaps a professional model painter will enlighten us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

I think that the intention was probably for the colour to match (why would it not be), but they did not succeed.

 

But various reasons why this might be:

 

Different undercoat used;

 

Different number of topcoats;

 

Different varnish (or varnish on one but not the other);

 

Different cleaning methods/materials;

 

Different form reflecting the light differently (this would explain the Westerns being a better match than the "kettles".

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, ArthurK said:

We visited Doncaster works at that time.

 

ArthurK

 

We must have gone to the same open day.

 

Jamie

[Barry Ten]

I never saw one ... but in photographs the Semis, at least when clean, always looked to be a shade of red, rather than maroon. Look at the front foot step, adjacent to the buffer beam - it's not far off being the same hue.

[Tony Wright]

41 minutes ago, D.Platt said:

Tony

 Thanks for your comments I should have known that you would pick up on the bogie wheels they are just the Romford ones supplied with the kit, it’s cost me a few quid up to now ,somewhere lost from me receiving it from my nephew a coupling rod had been lost so I ended up having to buy a valve gear set off comet and a set of transfers off Fox for a maroon Duchesses doesn’t come cheap but I will replace those wheels in the grand cost of things it will be well worth it.

Talking of wheel diameters I went to the GCR model exhibition (I left some stuff with Mo for you a give to kids sorry if it wasn’t any use to you ) anyway while at Loughborough I went into the sheds and stood next to 45305 my eldest lad who stands six foot five was impressed with the size of the wheels and asked what size they were I said I think they are six foot but I was looking at the top of the rim and I am five foot ten ,it was only when we moved up to 45491 which I presume has a new wheel set and that I realised how much the wear on the tyres altered appearance of the loco , so when we use Romford wheels we can always use smaller sizes, was it two inches wear on driving wheel tyres,  I wonder if it’s the same on bogie wheels ?

Back to shades of maroon at the back of my mind I think I read somewhere the earlier Duchesses were a paler maroon, was the original Hornby Doublo model City of London  in that lighter shade?

 

Dennis 

Thanks Dennis,

 

Probably at least two inches wear on tyres.

 

Because the wheels I use are Romford/Markits, the slightly too large flange means I always use a slightly-smaller wheel diameter than dead-scale - 26mm drivers on a 6' 8" LNER Pacfic, for instance. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[ardbealach]

Another red Duchess - or City? Don't know which one though on West Coast mainline south of Glasgow at Cleghorn in 1965.  (AM) 

[Pannier Tank]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks John,

 

But I think the jury's out on this one. 

 

 

 

My memory is that the 'Semis' in BR red were lighter in tint than the coaching stock (assuming that both loco and tender were covered in the same paint!). 

 

Poor scans, I admit, but, please (all) observe copyright restrictions. 

 

Perhaps a professional model painter will enlighten us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing the photos of 46240 & 46245.

 

46245 was my favourite Duchess although I still have fond memories of 'cabbing' 46240 whilst she was on Bletchley Shed as the Standby Engine for the Royal Train.

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Another red Duchess - or City? Don't know which one though on West Coast mainline south of Glasgow at Cleghorn in 1965.  (AM) 

Thanks,

 

Definitely a different colour.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clem]

2 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Another red Duchess - or City? Don't know which one though on West Coast mainline south of Glasgow at Cleghorn in 1965.  (AM) 

Surely 1964 or before? - All gone by September 1964.

[ArthurK]

Here is another variant of "maroon". Of course  a lot depends on the the lighting conditions and the type of film being used. In this case the weather was overcast and the film was Agfa. 

As an aside I spotted this at LlanfairPG, and knowing that it was unlikely to rush across the Menai rail bridge I hurried across the suspension bridge to a spot that I had already selected just at the Bangor end of the rail bridge, jumped out of the car and with my camera at ready waited for it to appear. I had only a few seconds  to wait! Happy days.

 

Date July 1964, loco "City of Nottingham.

 

ArthurK

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by ArthurK
add date and details