Wright writes.....

[ardbealach]

17 minutes ago, Clem said:

Surely 1964 or before? - All gone by September 1964.

Yes you are right - my error.  (AM)

 

[jamie92208]

I didn't see Duchesses, as my dad called them, very often as we lived near the S & C.   However I have vivid memories of a picnic in the Lune Gorge in about 1960, sitting in a field that is now under the M6 and seeing three all in red.   They made a vivid impression on me.   Then one day in Settle we came out of St John's chapel , which is below the line, just in time to see City of Liverpool storming past uphill on what was then a record breaking run for the SLS.   Though 9F's are also dear to me, see my moniker, the Duchesses will always be my favourites Hopefully in the next year or so I will be able to start work on my ) gauge one which will become 46238 City of Carlisle, as I was born in that great city and was pushed alongside the main line in my pram at a very tender age. 

 

I also rather surprised a dentist a year or so ago by being able to pinpoint, to the nearest month, when I had 4 of my teeth extracted.   I was 11and the deed was done in Kendal for various reasons and the dentist, a family friend who put me up, lived in a house alongside Greyrigg bank.   I remember seeing a red Duchess go past the next morning.   It was of course in July 64.

 

Jamie

 

[ecgtheow]

3 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Another red Duchess - or City? Don't know which one though on West Coast mainline south of Glasgow at Cleghorn in 1965.  (AM) 

 

I lived in the Wirral until 18 & saw many Semis mainly at Liverpool Lime street including standing right next to them as well as travelling to London on the trains they pulled. I remember them just as the photo above lighter than their coaches.

 

William

[trustytrev]

Hello,

         I don't think oily rags and or paraffin were used for cleaning coaches which would have made quite a difference over time. Cleaners of coaches did not have to climb over the paintwork like loco cleaners  either.

Would not coaches be cleaned more thoroughly to ensure passengers avoidance of he filth locomotive crew and cleaners endured ?

trustytrev.:)

[CF MRC]

I have no direct knowledge of the colour of the BR LMR Pacifics.  However, as mentioned already, the cleaning  regimes between carriages and engines would differ markedly.  I do know that looking at my miniature traction engine, the matt surface of a dirty engine looks lighter than when it is fully polished.

 Incidentally, the engine is not painted in crimson lake, but a maroon colour.  Crimson lake is much more brown. 

 

Old red cars that have lost their shine (we used to have an M reg Micra in its dotage) look a bit pink, a bit lighter than new ones.

 

Tim

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by CF MRC

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, ArthurK said:

Here is another variant of "maroon". Of course  a lot depends on the the lighting conditions and the type of film being used. In this case the weather was overcast and the film was Agfa. 

As an aside I spotted this at LlanfairPG, and knowing that it was unlikely to rush across the Menai rail bridge I hurried across the suspension bridge to a spot that I had already selected just at the Bangor end of the rail bridge, jumped out of the car and with my camera at ready waited for it to appear. I had only a few seconds  to wait! Happy days.

 

Date July 1964, loco "City of Nottingham.

 

ArthurK

 

Thanks Arthur,

 

Wonderful!

 

46251, the only BR red 'Semi' with the full front-end valances to the footplate. For some reasons, it's cabside numbers were lower than the others as well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

I've asked this question before, but I never learn!

 

Why don't I take my own advice?

 

And, that advice? Never, ever, ever, ever, take on something that's been built by someone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

At the weekend, Rober Carroll very kindly handed over a DJH rebuilt 'MN', 35028 CLAN LINE. 'I don't want anything for it, please sell it for CRUK. Oh, by the way, it doesn't work'. It didn't. 

 

Thank you Robert.

 

It looked well-built, and was very nicely-painted. 

 

Why didn't I just stick £50.00 on it, and sell it as a non-runner? Except, when I got it home and investigated, there was life! 

 

However, the motor (a D11) was out of mesh, and despite all my fiddling, it only staggered along. No matter, thought I. I'll drop a new motor/gearbox combo in, and then it'll be much better, and it'll make more money for the charity. Big mistake!  

 

Where is advice given to GLUE parts of a chassis together? Etched brass frames and etched brass brake rigging - solder, surely? Not in this case! All the brake gear just fell apart, as did the motion support bracket as I started to drop out the wheels. Yes, the outside pull rods had to be taken off, but I (like a dope) assumed they'd be soldered in place - soldered to hangers soldered to the frames. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  That's better; I needed to shout. 

 

Where do these 'gluists' get their information and advice. From mags? From shows? From the internet? 

 

I'll complete it now, obviously. But why didn't I just 'sell' the problem on to someone else?  

[D.Platt]

But Tony you do like a challenge 

 

Dennis

[MikeTrice]

55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'll complete it now, obviously. But why didn't I just 'sell' the problem on to someone else?  

Pride? Fear someone will accuse you of using glue on a chassis?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Regarding the maroon locos I saw most of the Westerns at Snow Hill in their early days, partly because I was a regular spotter around there when the Crewe-built ones were arriving. They came to Tyseley and could be seen on a daily basis with a few coaches being tested. When signed off they often worked an ECS Tyseley to Queens head then up to Lapworth on an evening peak service. 

In my memory when ex-works they were very close to the coach colour, but soon lost their gloss due to either different painting or cleaning techniques. Another cause for different shades was the paint preparation. I believe that Swindon used a green primer whilst Crewe used red.

Most of my colour pictures were from the blue era but this is an extract from one at Plymouth in 1967.  The undamaged parts of the paintwork look very close the the BSK shade.

 

I saw a lot of the red LMR Pacifics in my trips to New Street, Rugby and Stafford. My impression of those was that on a dull day they were close to the coach shade but they stood out in the bright sun. Again I think this could have been due to surface finishes and cleaning with an oily rag rather than water and brooms reflecting the light differently.

 

[JeffP]

Where do these 'gluists' get their information and advice. From mags? From shows? From the internet?

 

I don't believe they do Tony.

 

But there is a mystery surrounding soldering for most people, and it's a black art to many others, so they take the shortcut.

[D.Platt]

Afternoon Tony

Just reading the Steam Days and a photo of City of Coventry leaving Birmingham New Street the caption reads that it carried four liveries in BR days Blue,Green, 1958 BR maroon and from 1960 LMS maroon. 

Maybe that answers my question !  Hope the rebuild chassis is coming along nicely for you .

 

Dennis 

[JamieR4489]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Where do these 'gluists' get their information and advice. From mags? From shows? From the internet?

I know I haven't made that many kits but quite a few suggest using glue to assemble at least the body. Little or no mention of solder is given. I remember either reading an online article or one in a mag that was aimed at people wanting to build their first loco kit and the model was assembled using epoxy and superglue.

The previous owner of the Nucast Q1 I'm building had made a start on the tender using glue. I was able to just pull most of it apart and the rest of it was chucked in a margarine tub of boiling water. You'll be pleased to know I've reassembled it using solder.

 

Regards,

Jamie

[90164]

6 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Afternoon Tony

Just reading the Steam Days and a photo of City of Coventry leaving Birmingham New Street the caption reads that it carried four liveries in BR days Blue,Green, 1958 BR maroon and from 1960 LMS maroon. 

Maybe that answers my question !  Hope the rebuild chassis is coming along nicely for you .

 

Dennis 

I always thought the difference between the 1958 and 1960 liveries was the style of lining. The earliest BR red liveries carried BR style lining, inset from the edge of the panel, whilst the later style was lining on the edge of the panel, following LMS practice. People who saw the engines held that it did make a difference to the perception of the colour.

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Afternoon Tony

Just reading the Steam Days and a photo of City of Coventry leaving Birmingham New Street the caption reads that it carried four liveries in BR days Blue,Green, 1958 BR maroon and from 1960 LMS maroon. 

Maybe that answers my question !  Hope the rebuild chassis is coming along nicely for you .

 

Dennis 

 'Hope the rebuild chassis is coming along nicely for you .'

 

Thanks Dennis,

 

It is!

 

CLAN LINE now has a big Mashima, fitted with a flywheel, a Comet 'box  and all its brake rigging now securely fixed back in place with solder (after many bad words!). 

 

 

I think it's generally well-built (if epoxied together, which I dislike), and the painting has the feel of a 'professional' job (it's bow-pen-lined). 

 

I suppose it suffers from the overlay-wheels, but at least it goes well now..............

 

 

Well enough to romp round LB on a Pullman rake. It looks like the tender's ride-height needs investigation, and the cab needs glazing. As a 'visiting' loco, it need not carry lamps or discs.

 

Worth doing? I'd hope so, and my making it go well should certainly increase its resale value.

 

I doubt if it's superior to a Hornby RTR equivalent (other than in haulage-capacity). I made a rebuilt 'MN' from a DJH kit for a mate years ago now - it featured in my softback from Irwell on loco kit-construction. I used 'proper' Boxpok wheels, and soldered it all together!

 

Why do folk fight shy of soldering? If any discipline needs be mastered in our craft hobby, it must be soldering. If you can't solder (the generic 'you') then you're going to struggle as a railway modeller.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Regarding the maroon locos I saw most of the Westerns at Snow Hill in their early days, partly because I was a regular spotter around there when the Crewe-built ones were arriving. They came to Tyseley and could be seen on a daily basis with a few coaches being tested. When signed off they often worked an ECS Tyseley to Queens head then up to Lapworth on an evening peak service. 

In my memory when ex-works they were very close to the coach colour, but soon lost their gloss due to either different painting or cleaning techniques. Another cause for different shades was the paint preparation. I believe that Swindon used a green primer whilst Crewe used red.

Most of my colour pictures were from the blue era but this is an extract from one at Plymouth in 1967.  The undamaged parts of the paintwork look very close the the BSK shade.

 

I saw a lot of the red LMR Pacifics in my trips to New Street, Rugby and Stafford. My impression of those was that on a dull day they were close to the coach shade but they stood out in the bright sun. Again I think this could have been due to surface finishes and cleaning with an oily rag rather than water and brooms reflecting the light differently.

 

Thanks,

 

But was the maroon used on the 'Westerns' and 'Warships' the same 'red' as used on the Stanier Pacifics in later BR days? It could well have been the same paint for the diesels and carriages, but for the steamers?

 

I've read somewhere that it was crimson lake used on the big 4-6-2s.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Clive Mortimore]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've asked this question before, but I never learn!

 

Why don't I take my own advice?

 

And, that advice? Never, ever, ever, ever, take on something that's been built by someone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

At the weekend, Rober Carroll very kindly handed over a DJH rebuilt 'MN', 35028 CLAN LINE. 'I don't want anything for it, please sell it for CRUK. Oh, by the way, it doesn't work'. It didn't. 

 

Thank you Robert.

 

It looked well-built, and was very nicely-painted. 

 

Why didn't I just stick £50.00 on it, and sell it as a non-runner? Except, when I got it home and investigated, there was life! 

 

However, the motor (a D11) was out of mesh, and despite all my fiddling, it only staggered along. No matter, thought I. I'll drop a new motor/gearbox combo in, and then it'll be much better, and it'll make more money for the charity. Big mistake!  

 

Where is advice given to GLUE parts of a chassis together? Etched brass frames and etched brass brake rigging - solder, surely? Not in this case! All the brake gear just fell apart, as did the motion support bracket as I started to drop out the wheels. Yes, the outside pull rods had to be taken off, but I (like a dope) assumed they'd be soldered in place - soldered to hangers soldered to the frames. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  That's better; I needed to shout. 

 

Where do these 'gluists' get their information and advice. From mags? From shows? From the internet? 

 

I'll complete it now, obviously. But why didn't I just 'sell' the problem on to someone else?  

 

But Tony, there are so many types of glue to chose from these days so why not try them. 

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

But Tony, there are so many types of glue to chose from these days so why not try them. 

 

And when you find one you like, stick with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry.

[Mallard60022]

I wouldn't sniff at that advice Coops!

P

[Bucoops]

2 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I wouldn't sniff at that advice Coops!

P

 

Could get into a sticky situation indeed.

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Could get into a sticky situation indeed.

Well hard eh?

P

[Mallard60022]

I'm even more sorry. Must be the weather, or Lincolnshire air that I experienced yesterday.

Phil

[Dave Hunt]

If I may add my two pennorth on the subject of 'red' Coronations (or Duchesses, Semis, Big Lizzies etc.) in BR days, it is something that took a fair bit of my time and attention when writing the Wild Swan LMS Locomotive Profile on the Class. The conclusions that were published in the book were the result of research by several people including the late David Jenkinson, Bob Essery, Bob Meanley and myself and in the process many ex-LMS and BR men were consulted as well as paint samples obtained by David Jenkinson being looked at. To summarise our findings:

 

In late 1957, it was decided that the LMR could paint some Pacifics crimson lake and 46245 was selected for trial, being repainted in December that year, then between May and November 1958 another nineteen LMR engines were repainted - four Princess Royals and fifteen Coronations. Although the colour was described in some official documents at the time as maroon, it was stated by several observers and railwaymen to be the same shade as the crimson lake worn by LMS engines before the war. This was borne out by comparing paint samples dating from different periods and showed that the colour was quite different from the much darker maroon used in the lining of engines painted in the 1946 LMS lined black.

 

Two Princess Royals and six Coronations were repainted between December 1957 and June 1958 with LMS style yellow and black edge lining. During the remainder of 1958 a further two Princess Royals and ten Coronations were painted crimson lake with BR style inset lining in orange and black. Whatever the reason for changing the lining style it was reversed in the summer of 1959 after 46247 was repainted in July, having initially been painted crimson lake with LMS style lining in May 1958 (the only one so treated) and after that LMS style yellow and black lining was used so that by November 1961 all crimson lake Pacifics had it.

 

As far as we were able to ascertain, there was never any change in the colour used or in the undercoat, which was specified as red oxide. Undoubtedly, though, the two different lining styles and colours would have made the perception of the overall colour different and may have led to some observers thinking that there had been a change.

 

I hope that this will be of use.

 

Dave      

[geoff west]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've asked this question before, but I never learn!

 

Why don't I take my own advice?

 

And, that advice? Never, ever, ever, ever, take on something that's been built by someone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

At the weekend, Rober Carroll very kindly handed over a DJH rebuilt 'MN', 35028 CLAN LINE. 'I don't want anything for it, please sell it for CRUK. Oh, by the way, it doesn't work'. It didn't. 

 

Thank you Robert.

 

It looked well-built, and was very nicely-painted. 

 

Why didn't I just stick £50.00 on it, and sell it as a non-runner? Except, when I got it home and investigated, there was life! 

 

However, the motor (a D11) was out of mesh, and despite all my fiddling, it only staggered along. No matter, thought I. I'll drop a new motor/gearbox combo in, and then it'll be much better, and it'll make more money for the charity. Big mistake!  

 

Where is advice given to GLUE parts of a chassis together? Etched brass frames and etched brass brake rigging - solder, surely? Not in this case! All the brake gear just fell apart, as did the motion support bracket as I started to drop out the wheels. Yes, the outside pull rods had to be taken off, but I (like a dope) assumed they'd be soldered in place - soldered to hangers soldered to the frames. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  That's better; I needed to shout. 

 

Where do these 'gluists' get their information and advice. From mags? From shows? From the internet? 

 

I'll complete it now, obviously. But why didn't I just 'sell' the problem on to someone else?  

Classic case of the domino effect

[Tony Wright]

57 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

But Tony, there are so many types of glue to chose from these days so why not try them. 

Why even try them, Clive? 

 

Show me a better method of joining etched brass/nickel silver/white metal components than solder (or screwing/bolting) and I'll consider it. 

 

Unlike you, I don't work in plastic (well, hardly ever), so to use adhesives for securing metal components is anathema to me. Rather like you 'soldering' bits of Plastikard together? 

 

Of course I use adhesives at times - fixing pick-up pads for instance, or securing small, non-load-bearing parts, but that's all. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.