RMweb Gold john new Posted September 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, cctransuk said: There is a strong argument that, when considering physical construction, as opposed to 'acquisitive modelling', the hobby has seriously regressed since the days of the MRC. The trouble is, when near-perfection is available - at a price - the newer generation of 'modellers' will not consider purchasing anything but RTR - and as it will always be impossible to produce every variant RTR, we get endless complaints that Hornbach are 'missing a trick' by not producing variant XYZ. The more, and more detailed, models that are produced, the less the potential market will be satisfied. When I get back home from sunning myself and riding Lisbon trams - and despite the forthcoming RTR models - I will resume improving Lima GWR railcars; a remarkably simple task if you want 'layout' vehicles as opposed to ultra-detailed, too-fragile-to-touch ones! Regards, John Isherwood. Couldn't agree more, but, when I started a thread making this very point a few years ago on the old version of RMweb it was roundly condemned. 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, Neil said: Did someone mention Lisbon trams ... Yes - me. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nick Mitchell Posted September 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Are we now seeing a 'spoon-fed' generation of 'modellers' who expect RTR manufacturers to provide for their every whim? Those who aren't prepared to do any 'modelling' for themselves? Those who complain because they don't have the funds for others to do the work for them (weird), or those who have the funds and just let others do their modelling for them? Or those who are 'frightened' to attempt to alter an expensive model, in case they mess it up? I almost long for the days when, because RTR models were so poor, one had to alter them substantially to get anything near realism or good-running. The mags used to be full of that sort of stuff, especially the old MRC. 17 minutes ago, cctransuk said: There is a strong argument that, when considering physical construction, as opposed to 'acquisitive modelling', the hobby has seriously regressed since the days of the MRC. The trouble is, when near-perfection is available - at a price - the newer generation of 'modellers' will not consider purchasing anything but RTR - and as it will always be impossible to produce every variant RTR, we get endless complaints that Hornbach are 'missing a trick' by not producing variant XYZ. Let me shine a ray of light through some of this gloom. I have 2 boys aged 7 and 10, and they love to make things. They have a Lego train set, and the other day I found them playing with paper models they'd made for themselves and taped to the Lego wheels. Encouraged by this I bought some Dapol plastic wagon kits for them to have a go with. Obviously they needed some help, but the enjoyment they got from both building and running their own models was far greater than getting something ready made and perfect out of a box. I live in hope that this attitude will stay with them as they grow up. I think that some of the shows where there are places for kids to have a go at some actual modelling are really on to something. Maybe these sessions should be extended to adults as well, to show complete beginners some basic skills? I bet they'd be popular. My own early attempts at making models were very crude, and I do remember as a 20-something being frustrated with kit instructions that assumed you knew the "how" part of the "what" they were trying to get you to do. The light dawned talking to a trader at York show one year, who explained to me what flux was for, and how to approach soldering two pieces of brass tube together. I found myself going back through old model railway magazines that I'd saved from my teenage years, re-reading the kit construction articles that I'd skimmed over years earlier, with a new-found understanding. I really only started to develop any actual skills once I'd been persuaded to join the 2mm Scale Association and began attending an area group where I could see how other people were doing things. That's one of the reasons I made my epic series of videos (see link in my signature below) to let others watch (warts and all) in "real time" how I go about things. Whether or not people choose to buy RTR models is up to them, but there is a whole world of fun to be had in making and modifying things for yourself... people just need to be encouraged / brave enough to get stuck in and have a go. 9 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Sorry - this is more like it ..... 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 .... and this : Regards, John Isherwood. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) It's not just 'modellers' who are becoming used to being 'spoon fed' it's a much more general thing. Hardly a day goes by when I'm not constantly amazed by how little so many people seem able to do or even think for themselves. I'm pretty much convinced that once artificial intelligence becomes clever enough it will rule the world, hopefully after I've departed for another place. On current heading I don't see a long-term future for the human race. Sorry to be so pessimistic but if you spent as much time as I do seeing people get themselves into a right old mess because their phone or computer controlled information system says so............ Edited September 11, 2019 by great central Missing word 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted September 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2019 Other than two school trips to Paris in 1979 and 1980, Porto and Lisbon were the first cities I visited outside the UK, via a summer school in 1989. I fell instantly in love with both places, and especially their wonderful trams. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted September 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2019 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: This reminds me of the time when a chap phoned me up when I was at BRM 'complaining' that the latest Hornby loco I'd just reviewed 'wasn't exactly the one he required'. He wanted a different name/number and a different livery variation. I told him of the firms who would supply him with etched nameplates, transfers, paint and anything else needed. 'Oh, I'll mess it up' he said. I then gave him a list of professionals who'd be happy to undertake the 'conversion'. 'Oh, I can't afford those!' When I said 'Then it looks like you can't have it' he got quite irate, saying I had no right to dictate what he could or couldn't have, threatening to complain to my MD. I won't mention exactly where I told him to go! It sounds like you didn't "dictate what he could or couldn't have" but he sounds like one of those who believe they have the "right" to dictate to manufacturers what they must produce, no matter how uneconomic it would be for them. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted September 11, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) Once more in the spirit of making things, my relatively young friend, Nick Logan popped round this evening on his way home from work. He brought this.......................... It's the first metal loco he's built. It's a J79, made from a Connoisseur kit (an excellent one). Just over a year ago, he was having trouble getting it to run properly. So, at a show where I was 'doctoring', I showed him what to do, and the result is a really sweet-running little loco. Well done! He's not entirely happy with the painting, but weathering awaits........................ He part scratch-built the match truck, which also provides extra pick-ups. He also brought along a DJH D20 which he's making. The driving wheel axles were stiff. Just a quick pass-through with the one eighth taper reamer, and they're now as free as a bird. Thanks, Nick, for your contribution to CRUK. Not for him RTR-reliance and 'commission' modelling. A 'real' modeller in my book. And, it's up to crusty old bugg£rs like me, who might just know a little bit about modelling, to pass on our know-how and provide help. Just as I was helped so many years ago................ Edited September 11, 2019 by Tony Wright 18 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Coach bogie Posted September 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 11, 2019 I have really been intoxicated with everyone's loco builds. I finished the Pannier and, instead of going back to coaches, started another. I picked up a wreck of a Bulldog at a show earlier in the year, I thought I would use for spares. But no, I have to go and rebuild it. It runs very sweet. It has pick ups on drivers and bogie and does not stall on pointwork. I moved the front steps back a couple of mm to allow greater swing of the bogie. Many years ago Guy Williams told me how he sat the tender on the back of his 4-4-0 locos. This has a small fixed shelf at the back of the frames and the tender sits on it. The front and middle wheels carry no load, just the rear. I added as much weight as I could to the loco and front of the tender. It now pulls more than the real thing did. It walked away with eight kit built coaches, and even made it up the incline (slipping at times but kept moving). On the level it can manage twelve. Did I stop there. Oh no. I bought a much reduced in price, Bachmann Earl for possible reuse of the power unit and tender. The boiler/cab arrangement comes off in one piece. I had another K's wreck so I did a 'quick fix' job and made the K's boiler fit. Not as easy as it sounds as the castings are very thick and needed reducing down to fit around the motor. Now watch Bachmann do the same, I assume this is what they had in mind when they designed the boiler to come off the way it does. I will spend a couple of nights cleaning them up and prepping for painting. What next? Mike Wiltshire 23 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 Tony, I think there is still a fair bit interest in building things, it just gets lost amid the vast amount of r-t-r that’s available. I too find it frustrating when modelers complain in the manner of your Mr Angry, when in truth they have never had it so good. Most though seem to enjoy their purchases and for some it is the start of a journey to modification and kit/scratch building; others stay with r-t-r, but if they all enjoy themselves then great. In our club the juniors are interested in construction and we are trying pass on skills and probably bad habits as well. We are also cataloging a collection from a local modeler who died recently. His ready to run equipment was boxed and sold off by the family, but he had a stash of kits he’d bought second hand, some part built; some unbuilt. Locos, coaches and wagons mostly GWR late 19th early 20th century, which his widow has asked us to dispose of, with all money raised going to charity. Six of us have bought a fair few items for ourselves so hopefully the locos and stock will be built and run. and those we don’t sell to club members will be offered for sale at the Lydney Show later this month. I’ve bought a nearly complete 517 class, an unbuilt Metro Tank and an unbuilt Buffalo Saddle Tank to keep me busy once I finish my Large Prairie. I’ve also bought and already upgraded a K’s B Set with new underframe components and fixed the seating and roofs. On a slightly different tack I bought the Finecast Kit for the Large Prairie after Hornby and Dapol announced their models, but I had already decided I needed to build a loco as I hadn’t for about ten years and I and was in danger of losing what little skills I had. I don’t think for a minute that it will be as detailed as the r-t-r models but it will be mine, and as good as I can make it. Progress is slow but the chassis runs as an 0-6-0 and cylinders/crossheads and slidebars have all been fettled and are ready to be fitted. I’ll post a photo when a bit more progress is made. Jon 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jukebox Posted September 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 12, 2019 Tony, I think it's human nature to fear the new / unknown / different / change. It *does* take courage to repaint or renumber an expensive model the first time, for fear of totally botching it. And the 20th one you do will be better than the first - practice makes better, if not perfect. Overcoming the prejudice that a less-than-perfectly-executed modified RTR loco is acceptable, nay, superior to one out of the box, is a theme of this thread that I applaud you for. Few of us are going to ever be able to reach your stratospheric skills set when it comes to model construction (and you manage to admit your own limitations in your choice to barter off your painting chores!) One of the best ways to overcome the fear of "failure" is to be guided by someone who can do so confidently, but not lordingly. I've tackled challenges as out-of-my-comfort-zone as replacing the screen on a laptop computer, after studying well produced "how to" videos on You Tube, and suspect that there's a niche for many railway modelling related tasks in that space - many do exist - but they can't replace the one-on-one sort of advice that is needed to make a chassis run sweetly, I'd suggest... The great thing is, at the end of the day no one is too old to learn something new. In the spirit of others who have shown what they've built, here's a shot my first completed kit loco - a DJH Duke I built and painted a few year's back - posed with a Bachmann Evening Star. No prize for guessing which I am prouder to own: Cheers Scott 16 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted September 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Long John Silver said: for some it is the start of a journey to modification and kit/scratch building; others stay with r-t-r Those are not mutually exclusive, of course. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 I tend to be sanguin about the situation. It is my general observation that people who like to make/build things .... make them. People who don't ....don't. It was I think ever thus. The vast increase in the number and quality of RTR has enlarged the former cohort at the expense of the latter within the hobby. The main problem as I see it is the ability of the hobby to attract replacement modellers now that the model train set is no longer (and has not been for the past 30 years) a mainstay toy for children ..... nor are the railways central anymore to life in general. Modelling in the sphere of railways is very enjoyable - but there has to be a pathway into the hobby. Add to this the demise of the model kit in general as a mainstay of childhood toys and such pathways for those who like to make/build become more and more niche. This drop off in making/doing spreads right across life .... the collapse in the scope to tinker with cars is a case in point - similarly few make there own clothes any more .... one could go on with the list! Seen in this light you could argue that 3d printing is quite a worrying development. 3 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 5 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Those are not mutually exclusive, of course. Absolutely right, I use r-t-r and kit build to fill the gaps, but the gaps have just become fewer over the years. I am trying to keep my hand in as far as loco building is concerned, but my main layout doesn't provide many opportunities. In the longer term I my be pushing my modelling era back and will need to build more kits. As we all know some modelers using exclusively r-t-r produce some superb layouts, far better than I could do and there is real skill in combining products to form a convincing model railway. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted September 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2019 If we look at our esteemed leader we can see the broad church of modelling put into very effective operation. If I have understood correctly, many of his wagons are rtr, most of his coaches are highly modified rtr (new sides on rtr donors for example) and almost all of his locomotives are kit built. We do not need to pick "fights" with one group or another almost all of us will sit somewhere on Tony's modelling spectrum. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium maridunian Posted September 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) I very much agree with the sentiment that I'm in this hobby to make not shop. I do wonder at the pocket depths of people who snap up entire RTR trains in the latest (doubtless short-lived) Train Operating Company liveries. (I remember John Prescott's observation of rail privatisation was that only the paint companies would make money. He didn't anticipate vinyl wrapper and model railway makers doing even better.) People have pointed out that taking blades to an expensive, delicate, precision made model is scary (and a bit bonkers, TBH). I square this circle by never buying new RTR, and never paying more than I can afford to write-off for a kit, 3D print or second hand RTR. I think 3D printing is a very positive development for modelling. As Atso said, many interesting prototypes will never be taken up by the big suppliers. Making in the purest sense, starting with design, then developing and finishing a model just as we might have fabricated a model from brass or plastic. And if we want another, a single click does it! Mike Edited September 12, 2019 by maridunian 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: We do not need to pick "fights" with one group or another almost all of us will sit somewhere on Tony's modelling spectrum. If I've got it right about Tony's modelling spectrum it's about self reliance and making the effort to undertake some constructional modelling. And yes, I guess almost all who read this thread will sit somewhere on it. However, as Lecorbusier has pointed out, there are some that do and some that don't (often won't) attempt any. And as many others have mentioned there is a growing majority in the won't camp and a falling membership of those that will. I don't see it as picking a 'fight' to be concerned and to try and encourage some modelling participation. It's all a matter of how one goes about that. As succinctly put earlier; if you won't start you can't possibly arrive (nor travel the spectrum). 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said: I tend to be sanguin about the situation. It is my general observation that people who like to make/build things .... make them. People who don't ....don't. It was I think ever thus. The vast increase in the number and quality of RTR has enlarged the former cohort at the expense of the latter within the hobby. The main problem as I see it is the ability of the hobby to attract replacement modellers now that the model train set is no longer (and has not been for the past 30 years) a mainstay toy for children ..... nor are the railways central anymore to life in general. Modelling in the sphere of railways is very enjoyable - but there has to be a pathway into the hobby. Add to this the demise of the model kit in general as a mainstay of childhood toys and such pathways for those who like to make/build become more and more niche. This drop off in making/doing spreads right across life .... the collapse in the scope to tinker with cars is a case in point - similarly few make there own clothes any more .... one could go on with the list! Seen in this light you could argue that 3d printing is quite a worrying development. The points you make about the relative demise of the model kit and home car maintenance are good ones. There are other pathways into constructing though. and talking to the parents of some of our club juniors it appears that a couple of them make robotic devices out of anything they can find, and this constructive streak comes out in their modelling. They love their ready to run, but enjoy making things too. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Atso Posted September 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 12, 2019 While I agree that there seems to be a smaller percentage of people who are willing to build for themselves, I'm not convinced it is all doom and gloom. At the risk of being controversial (and starting a new debate on the subject), I believe that The Great Model Railway Challenge has increased interest in railway modelling. While helping out with a layout on the exhibition circuit, I noticed an increase in attendance at the shows I was at; the increase in younger people was very noticeable. As I see it, this could well be the pathway to getting new blood into the hobby and this should be fun; getting youngsters serious about their modelling can come later. I'm not convinced either that 3D printing should be seen as a worrying development. It is simple another tool/method to model building and, as with every method, it has its positive and negative points. As with most things, it is best used alongside another methods and materials. Personally speaking, I doubt I would have progressed to building these etched kits if I hadn't started dabbling with 3D printing first. 12 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Long John Silver said: The points you make about the relative demise of the model kit and home car maintenance are good ones. There are other pathways into constructing though. and talking to the parents of some of our club juniors it appears that a couple of them make robotic devices out of anything they can find, and this constructive streak comes out in their modelling. They love their ready to run, but enjoy making things too. That is really encouraging. There is also a good link between wargaming and model making which supplies a good route through ... I just wonder if there might be a similar link through the heritage railway scene and the hobby is missing a trick. However being something of a loner myself at the present, I perhaps do not see the full picture. My comment on 3d printing was in no way to denigrate it ... I find the possibilities quite exciting .... but it will likely replace quite a few of the traditional craft options over time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted September 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2019 The debate also becomes a bit selective as to where is considered to be the cut off. My stock at the moment is mostly r-t-r, but I’ve scratch built the baseboards from components rather than buy a ready made baseboard kit. However, I didn’t turn the nuts and bolts from raw metal they came from Screwfix et al. Made from one of the new baseboard kits I’m sure they would have been much neater but my average DIY level wood bodging means these are mine. I’ve wired the layout from scratch but with bought in wire, switches and control gear not soldered those up from sources like MERG. The buildings to go on will be a mix of scratch built and some kits. This is all still application of crafting skills Into the current (small) layout build even if most of my track and rolling stock is bought in. I do have some simple rolling stock kits on the go, time will tell if they are acceptable for others to view. It is application of modelling/crafting even if nowhere near the skill levels that went into that exquisite 2fs 9F. 6 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Where we are with the hobby is to some extent a microcosm of society. People don't tinker and make things at home because they don't make things at work - getting the tools or lathe out isn't second nature to as many people as it used to be. Opening a computer, however, very much is and I think that's where 3D printing, cutters and machines we haven't thought of yet are going to be the future of the hobby. I want to make a building - I'll draw it on the computer and cut it out of plastikard, or send it off to be laser cut. It's just a different skillset in the way Tony's generation didn't (often) have to cut outtheir own wheels or wind their own armatures. 3 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said: That is really encouraging. There is also a good link between wargaming and model making which supplies a good route through ... I just wonder if there might be a similar link through the heritage railway scene and the hobby is missing a trick. However being something of a loner myself at the present, I perhaps do not see the full picture. My comment on 3d printing was in no way to denigrate it ... I find the possibilities quite exciting .... but it will likely replace quite a few of the traditional craft options over time. Funnily enough I was thinking about the link between the preserved railway scene and railway modelling while eating my breakfast just now. I do think that the relatively healthy interest in modeling in our area is to some degree linked to the Dean Forest Railway (other excellent preserved railways are available. there just not quite so close to us). Many of our model railway club members are also volunteers there, though I'm not, I just don't have the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 13 hours ago, Coach bogie said: Now watch Bachmann do the same, I assume this is what they had in mind when they designed the boiler to come off the way it does. Mike Wiltshire I doubt you need worry. I can think of models produced by both of the big manufacturers, whose modular bodies suggest a very easy route to a different, follow-up model. Years on from the originals, I'm still waiting, with no real belief that anything will happen. Chassis units now seem to be quite deliberately designed to fit under only one possible body style, even when the same wheel size, wheel base, number of spokes and general frame outline might have been suitable under another body. These things suggest to me a blinkered approach by manufacturers who might otherwise have the chance to earn money from sales of additional models with limited development costs. Also, some items announced around five or more years ago are still awaited from one maker, so I think DIY modelling has an assured role. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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