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Wright writes.....


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15 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

There is a strong argument that, when considering physical construction, as opposed to 'acquisitive modelling', the hobby has seriously regressed since the days of the MRC.

 

The trouble is, when near-perfection is available - at a price - the newer generation of 'modellers' will not consider purchasing anything but RTR - and as it will always be impossible to produce every variant RTR, we get endless complaints that Hornbach are 'missing a trick' by not producing variant XYZ.

 

The more, and more detailed, models that are produced, the less the potential market will be satisfied.

 

When I get back home from sunning myself and riding Lisbon trams - and despite the forthcoming RTR models - I will resume improving Lima GWR railcars; a remarkably simple task if you want 'layout' vehicles as opposed to ultra-detailed, too-fragile-to-touch ones!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Couldn't agree more, but, when I started a thread making this very point a few years ago on the old version of RMweb it was roundly condemned.  

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Are we now seeing a 'spoon-fed' generation of 'modellers' who expect RTR manufacturers to provide for their every whim? Those who aren't prepared to do any 'modelling' for themselves? Those who complain because they don't have the funds for others to do the work for them (weird), or those who have the funds and just let others do their modelling for them? Or those who are 'frightened' to attempt to alter an expensive model, in case they mess it up? 

 

I almost long for the days when, because RTR models were so poor, one had to alter them substantially to get anything near realism or good-running. The mags used to be full of that sort of stuff, especially the old MRC.

 

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

There is a strong argument that, when considering physical construction, as opposed to 'acquisitive modelling', the hobby has seriously regressed since the days of the MRC.

 

The trouble is, when near-perfection is available - at a price - the newer generation of 'modellers' will not consider purchasing anything but RTR - and as it will always be impossible to produce every variant RTR, we get endless complaints that Hornbach are 'missing a trick' by not producing variant XYZ. 

 

Let me shine a ray of light through some of this gloom. I have 2 boys aged 7 and 10, and they love to make things.

They have a Lego train set, and the other day I found them playing with paper models they'd made for themselves and taped to the Lego wheels.

Encouraged by this I bought some Dapol plastic wagon kits for them to have a go with. Obviously they needed some help, but the enjoyment they got from both building and running their own models was far greater than getting something ready made and perfect out of a box.

I live in hope that this attitude will stay with them as they grow up.

I think that some of the shows where there are places for kids to have a go at some actual modelling are really on to something.

Maybe these sessions should be extended to adults as well, to show complete beginners some basic skills? I bet they'd be popular.

 

My own early attempts at making models were very crude, and I do remember as a 20-something being frustrated with kit instructions that assumed you knew the "how" part of the "what" they were trying to get you to do.

The light dawned talking to a trader at York show one year, who explained to me what flux was for, and how to approach soldering two pieces of brass tube together.

I found myself going back through old model railway magazines that I'd saved from my teenage years, re-reading the kit construction articles that I'd skimmed over years earlier, with a new-found understanding.

I really only started to develop any actual skills once I'd been persuaded to join the 2mm Scale Association and began attending an area group where I could see how other people were doing things. That's one of the reasons I made my epic series of videos (see link in my signature below) to let others watch (warts and all) in "real time" how I go about things.

 

Whether or not people choose to buy RTR models is up to them, but there is a whole world of fun to be had in making and modifying things for yourself... people just need to be encouraged / brave enough to get stuck in and have a go.

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It's not just 'modellers' who are becoming used to being 'spoon fed' it's a much more general thing.

Hardly  a day goes by when I'm not constantly amazed by how little so many people seem able to do or even think for themselves.

I'm pretty much convinced that once artificial intelligence becomes clever enough it will rule the world, hopefully after I've departed for another place. On current heading I don't see a long-term future for the human race.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but if you spent as much time as I do seeing people get themselves into a right old mess because their phone or computer controlled information system says so............

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Other than two school trips to Paris in 1979 and 1980, Porto and Lisbon were the first cities I visited outside the UK, via a summer school in 1989. I fell instantly in love with both places, and especially their wonderful trams.

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

This reminds me of the time when a chap phoned me up when I was at BRM 'complaining' that the latest Hornby loco I'd just reviewed 'wasn't exactly the one he required'. He wanted a different name/number and a different livery variation. I told him of the firms who would supply him with etched nameplates, transfers, paint and anything else needed. 'Oh, I'll mess it up' he said. I then gave him a list of professionals who'd be happy to undertake the 'conversion'. 'Oh, I can't afford those!' When I said 'Then it looks like you can't have it' he got quite irate, saying I had no right to dictate what he could or couldn't have, threatening to complain to my MD. I won't mention exactly where I told him to go! 

 

It sounds like you didn't "dictate what he could or couldn't have" but he sounds like one of those who believe they have the "right" to dictate to manufacturers what they must produce, no matter how uneconomic it would be for them.  

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Tony, I think there is still a fair bit interest in building things, it just gets lost amid the vast amount of r-t-r that’s available. I too find it frustrating when modelers complain in the manner of your Mr Angry, when in truth they have never had it so good. Most though seem to enjoy their purchases and for some it is the start of a journey to modification and kit/scratch building; others stay with r-t-r, but if they all enjoy themselves then great.

In our club the juniors are interested in construction and we are trying pass on skills and probably bad habits as well.

We are also cataloging a collection from a local modeler who died recently. His ready to run equipment was boxed and sold off by the family, but he had a stash of kits he’d bought second hand, some part built; some unbuilt. Locos, coaches and wagons mostly GWR late 19th early 20th century, which his widow has asked us to dispose of, with all money raised going to charity.

Six of us have bought a fair few items for ourselves so hopefully the locos and stock will be built and run. and those we don’t sell to club members will be offered for sale at the Lydney Show later this month.

I’ve bought a nearly complete 517 class, an unbuilt Metro Tank and an unbuilt Buffalo Saddle Tank to keep me busy once I finish my Large Prairie. I’ve also bought and already upgraded a K’s B Set with new underframe components and fixed the seating and roofs.

On a slightly different tack I bought the Finecast Kit for the Large Prairie after Hornby and Dapol announced their models, but I had already decided I needed to build a loco as I hadn’t for about ten years and I and was in danger of losing what little skills I had. I don’t think for a minute that it will be as detailed as the r-t-r models but it will be mine, and as good as I can make it. Progress is slow but the chassis runs as an 0-6-0 and cylinders/crossheads and slidebars have all been fettled and are ready to be fitted. I’ll post a photo when a bit more progress is made.  Jon

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I tend to be sanguin about the situation. It is my general observation that people who like to make/build things .... make them. 

 

People who don't ....don't.

 

It was I think ever thus.

 

The vast increase in the number and quality of RTR has enlarged the former cohort at the expense of the latter within the hobby.

 

The main problem as I see it is the ability of the hobby to attract replacement modellers now that the model train set is no longer (and has not been for the past 30 years) a mainstay toy for children ..... nor are the railways central anymore to life in general. Modelling in the sphere of railways is very enjoyable - but there has to be a pathway into the hobby.

 

Add to this the demise of the model kit in general as a mainstay of childhood toys and such pathways for those who like to make/build become more and more niche.

 

This drop off in making/doing spreads right across life .... the collapse in the scope to tinker with cars is a case in point - similarly few make there own clothes any more .... one could go on with the list! Seen in this light you could argue that 3d printing is quite a worrying development.

 

 

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5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Those are not mutually exclusive, of course.

Absolutely right, I use r-t-r and kit build to fill the gaps, but the gaps have just become fewer over the years. I am trying to keep my hand in as far as loco building is concerned, but my main layout doesn't provide many opportunities. In the longer term I my be pushing my modelling era back and will need to build more kits.  As we all know some modelers using exclusively r-t-r produce some superb layouts, far better than I could do and there is real skill in combining products to form a convincing model railway.

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If we look at our esteemed leader we can see the broad church of modelling put into very effective operation.

 

If I have understood correctly, many of his wagons are rtr, most of his coaches are highly modified rtr (new sides on rtr donors for example) and almost all of his locomotives are kit built.

 

We do not need to pick "fights" with one group or another almost all of us will sit somewhere on Tony's modelling spectrum.

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I very much agree with the sentiment that I'm in this hobby to make not shop. I do wonder at the pocket depths of people who snap up entire RTR trains in the latest (doubtless short-lived) Train Operating Company liveries. (I remember John Prescott's observation of rail privatisation was that only the paint companies would make money. He didn't anticipate vinyl wrapper and model railway makers doing even better.) 

 

People have pointed out that taking blades to an expensive, delicate, precision made model is scary (and a bit bonkers, TBH). I square this circle by never buying new RTR, and never paying more than I can afford to write-off for a kit, 3D print or second hand RTR. 

 

I think 3D printing is a very positive development for modelling. As Atso said, many interesting prototypes will never be taken up by the big suppliers. Making in the purest sense, starting with design, then developing and finishing a model just as we might have fabricated a model from brass or plastic. And if we want another, a single click does it!

 

Mike

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13 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

We do not need to pick "fights" with one group or another almost all of us will sit somewhere on Tony's modelling spectrum.

 

If I've got it right about Tony's modelling spectrum it's about self reliance and making the effort to undertake some constructional modelling. And yes, I guess almost all who read this thread will sit somewhere on it.

 

However, as Lecorbusier has pointed out, there are some that do and some that don't (often won't) attempt any. And as many others have mentioned there is a growing majority in the won't camp and a falling membership of those that will.

 

I don't see it as picking a 'fight' to be concerned and to try and encourage some modelling participation. It's all a matter of how one goes about that. As succinctly put earlier; if you won't start you can't possibly arrive (nor travel the spectrum).

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1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

I tend to be sanguin about the situation. It is my general observation that people who like to make/build things .... make them. 

 

People who don't ....don't.

 

It was I think ever thus.

 

The vast increase in the number and quality of RTR has enlarged the former cohort at the expense of the latter within the hobby.

 

The main problem as I see it is the ability of the hobby to attract replacement modellers now that the model train set is no longer (and has not been for the past 30 years) a mainstay toy for children ..... nor are the railways central anymore to life in general. Modelling in the sphere of railways is very enjoyable - but there has to be a pathway into the hobby.

 

Add to this the demise of the model kit in general as a mainstay of childhood toys and such pathways for those who like to make/build become more and more niche.

 

This drop off in making/doing spreads right across life .... the collapse in the scope to tinker with cars is a case in point - similarly few make there own clothes any more .... one could go on with the list! Seen in this light you could argue that 3d printing is quite a worrying development.

 

 

The points you make about the relative demise of the model kit and home car maintenance are  good ones. There are other pathways into constructing though. and talking to the parents of some of our club juniors it appears that a couple of them make robotic devices out of anything they can find, and this constructive streak comes out in their modelling. They love their ready to run, but enjoy making things too.

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16 minutes ago, Long John Silver said:

The points you make about the relative demise of the model kit and home car maintenance are  good ones. There are other pathways into constructing though. and talking to the parents of some of our club juniors it appears that a couple of them make robotic devices out of anything they can find, and this constructive streak comes out in their modelling. They love their ready to run, but enjoy making things too.

That is really encouraging. There is also a good link between wargaming and model making which supplies a good route through ... I just wonder if there might be a similar link through the heritage railway scene and the hobby is missing a trick. However being something of a loner myself at the present, I perhaps do not see the full picture.

 

My comment on 3d printing was in no way to denigrate it ... I find the possibilities quite exciting .... but it will likely replace quite a few of the traditional craft options over time.

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The debate also becomes a bit selective as to where is considered to be the cut off. My stock at the moment is mostly r-t-r, but I’ve scratch built the baseboards from components rather than buy a ready made baseboard kit. However, I didn’t turn the nuts and bolts from raw metal they came from Screwfix et al. Made from one of the new baseboard kits I’m sure they would have been much neater but my average DIY level wood bodging means these are mine. I’ve wired the layout from scratch but with bought in wire, switches and control gear not soldered those up from sources like MERG. The buildings to go on will be a mix of scratch built and some kits. 

 

This is all still application of crafting skills Into the current (small) layout build even if most of my track and rolling stock is bought in. I do have some simple rolling stock kits on the go, time will tell if they are acceptable for others to view.

 

It is application of modelling/crafting even if nowhere near the skill levels that went into that exquisite 2fs 9F.

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Where we are with the hobby is to some extent a microcosm of society.   People don't tinker and make things at home because they don't make things at work  - getting the tools or lathe out isn't second nature to as many people as it used to be.  Opening a computer, however, very much is and I think that's where 3D printing, cutters and machines we haven't thought of yet are going to be the future of the hobby.    I want to make a building - I'll draw it on the computer and cut it out of plastikard, or send it off to be laser cut.    It's just a different skillset in the way Tony's generation didn't (often) have to cut outtheir own wheels or wind their own armatures.

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4 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

That is really encouraging. There is also a good link between wargaming and model making which supplies a good route through ... I just wonder if there might be a similar link through the heritage railway scene and the hobby is missing a trick. However being something of a loner myself at the present, I perhaps do not see the full picture.

 

My comment on 3d printing was in no way to denigrate it ... I find the possibilities quite exciting .... but it will likely replace quite a few of the traditional craft options over time.

Funnily enough I was thinking about the link between the preserved railway scene and railway modelling while eating my breakfast just now. I do think that the relatively healthy interest in modeling in our area is to some degree linked to the Dean Forest Railway (other excellent preserved railways are available. there just not quite so close to us). Many of our model railway club members are also volunteers there, though I'm not, I just don't have the time.

 

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13 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

 Now watch Bachmann do the same, I assume this is what they had in mind when they designed the boiler to come off the way it does.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

I doubt you need worry. I can think of models produced by both of the big manufacturers, whose modular bodies suggest a very easy route to a different, follow-up model. Years on from the originals, I'm still waiting, with no real belief that anything will happen. Chassis units now seem to be quite deliberately designed to fit under only one possible body style, even when the same wheel size, wheel base, number of spokes and general frame outline might have been suitable under another body. These things suggest to me a blinkered approach by manufacturers who might otherwise have the chance to earn money from sales of additional models with limited development costs. Also, some items announced around five or more years ago are still awaited from one maker, so I think DIY modelling has an assured role.

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