Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Tony

 

May I offer a a different slant to the word 'demanded' in your post?

 

The obvious parts of The Poll are the voting and results. What is not so obvious is that The Poll Team spends many weeks compiling and refreshing the accompanying Guide so that those who don't have deep knowledge of the prototype might get a feel for how locos and rolling stock - be they 'old' or 'modern' - fit together in chronological context.

 

Additionally, although there may be a few people on various social media platforms who 'scream their demands', our experience is that the greater overall majority of voters are 'decent folk' who are grateful for this annual method of presenting their views in an orderly, professional manner.

 

I have appended below some extracts from the Q&A which should explain matters. Note that the purpose of The Poll is for modellers and collectors. It states that they are models they would realistically wish to buy.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Wishlist Poll Team)

 

EXTRACTS FROM THE 00 WISHLIST POLL Q&A (Full details will appear in the RMweb banner headline later this week)

 

What is the purpose of The Poll?  

To provide railway modellers and collectors with an easy and informed way of indicating to manufacturers and commissioners of 00 ready-to-run models which models they would realistically buy if made at some time in the future from all-new tooling (excluding models announced or made since 1 January 2005).

 

The ‘firm cut-off date and all new tooling’ basis gives us an agreed date of items for listing and precludes us making ‘quality judgments’. If voters feel that any pre-2005 model is fine – and many are – there is no need to vote for them.

 

We can’t expect makers to scrap their tooling and make a totally new model that might only be marginally better!

 

Does The Poll Team expect ‘the top items’ to be made?

We would ask voters to appreciate that manufacturers lay plans anything up to three years or more in advance and have to continually balance requests against their current models and proposed portfolios – as well as those of their competitors. To us, it’s a hobby; to them, it’s a commercial decision.

 

 

Thanks for that clarification, Brian,

 

You and your team deserve a large vote of thanks.

 

My use of the word 'demand' or 'demanding' is based on my experience when full-time on BRM. After I'd written a review of a new model, some folk would phone up complaining that Hornmann or Bachby hadn't produced the model they wanted, and, even if they did, it wasn't the right livery/number/name combination they required.

 

When I told one guy to change the number/name, he said he couldn't. When I offered a list of professionals who'd do the job for him, he said he couldn't afford their prices, When I told him he wasn't go to get the loco he wanted, then, he threatened to report me to my MD, claiming I was rude. I probably was, but these types do insist on expressing their 'demands'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Stanley Melrose]

As I understand it, Joe's Hush-hush, along with other models that he made, went to his nephews and nieces - or their children - as he had no children of his own.  It was rumoured that these fabulous models were played with as push along toys by tiny tots . . .

 

Tragically, Pendon had (alledgedly) upset Joe so he stipulated that none of his models should end up there.

 

A lovely man and a great loss.

 

Stan

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tony,

 

I'm busy cleaning wheels but I must comment, as you have posted the photo of the loveless 'Hush Hush' before and noted the fault with bufferbeam and tender wheels. It's worth pointing out, that the photo of the Loveless 'Hush Hush' is of a pre production model. The ones that went on sale had the bufferbeam painted grey and disc wheels on the tender.

 

With regard to the colour, the colour of the 'Hush Hush' is actually very well documented. Colour chips from the original paint that was used on the locomotive have survived. They confirm the information in the original documentation.

 

The loveless model is correct, the light grey on the other models is not correct. The light grey that became popular for a time has its origins in the apprentice model constructed by Darlington works. This was built alongside the full size locomotive and the model also used the same paint as the real locomotive. However, after a fire ar Darlington works and as part of the insurance claim, the model was repainted in a much lighter grey. A shade that has given rise to many light grey model 'Hush Hush' locomotives over the decades. An example of the problems inherent in clone modeling?

 

 The colour used on the 'Hush Hush' was not Battleship grey, as often quoted, there is no such thing as Battleship grey. The nearest equivalent to what is referred to as Battleship grey by most people, was probably the shade discontinued by the Admiralty during WW1. I believe this was Admiralty Dark grey or Dark sea grey.

Thanks Andrew,

 

My memory fades as to what I've posted before, so my observations/criticisms on the Loveless W1 were incorrect. For that, I apologise, especially to Lawrie (or is it Laurie?). There's no doubt it's an outstanding model. 

 

One point regarding painting models with the actual colours used on the real things.............. They never look right, as David Jenkinson once found out when using actual LMS crimson lake paint applied to a carriage he'd made! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

The Loveless W1 seems to have captured the curve of the boiler quite nicely. The SE Finecast kit seems to have almost flat sides and is quite a triangular shape.

 

Malcolm Crawley built the SE Finecast version and spent ages trying to ease the castings into the correct shape but couldn't bend it enough without altering the height and width too much so he was never really happy with it.

I'll see how I get on with it, Tony.

 

I know the corridor tender will need some modifications, not least the filing off of the flange at the bases of the tank, both sides - only present on the non-corridor tenders. Wills (which became SEF) followed the Roche drawing of the tender. Bad move! 

 

Speaking of the tender, do you have access to Malcolm's model? If so, could you confirm that the area above the horizontal beading at the top should be black, not grey? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

My memory fades as to what I've posted before, so my observations/criticisms on the Loveless W1 were incorrect. For that, I apologise, especially to Lawrie (or is it Laurie?). There's no doubt it's an outstanding model. 

 

One point regarding painting models with the actual colours used on the real things.............. They never look right, as David Jenkinson once found out when using actual LMS crimson lake paint applied to a carriage he'd made! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

Colour reproduction in O gauge is not quite the problem that it is in 4mm, 2mm and other small scales. Probably because light and reflection scales better in the bigger gauges. There is a certain amount of leeway either side of 'dead right colour' in all models, weathering will also effect colour in all sorts of ways. However, some colours do not scale very well, LMS crimson lake has been mentioned by yourself, the leeway is much smaller. Other colours are not so bad, the more organic colours for example and those less sensitive to light and reflection. The grey of the 'Hush Hush' is actually quite straight forwards in comparison to some of the most notorious matches.

 

Talking of grey and how colour, tone and shade will change on railway vehicles. I was recently looking at colour photographs of big four unfitted wagons,(excluding later LMS bauxite and SR brown) that were rather helpfully marshaled together in the same trains.  I concluded that you could use dark grey, middle grey and light grey paint, indiscriminately, on any LMS, GWR or LNER lettered wagon and it would be right.

 

In short, some colours will scale, others will not. Sometimes it is important that colours are within the leeway either side of 'dead right' and other times it is not. The RTR manufactures should take more responsibility here, as their colour reproduction is often not very good. This is a problem, because many modelers are increasingly referring to RTR products as source material for what is the right, in all sort of disturbing ways.

[Barry Ten]

In regard to the on-going topic of the demise of kitbuilding due to the rise of RTR, it's interesting to

see that there are very similar feelings in the aeromodelling community. Quoting from the editorial

to this practical-orientated issue of RC&ME:

 

"Whether built from a traditional kit or plan, my models may not always fly the best but the fact

that I've made them means there's an intangible bond. They have character. They're built strong

and easy to repair too, because I know what's going on under the covering - something you can't

always say about a ready-made model from a Far Eastern factory."

 

Ring any bells?

 

Encouragingly, though, elsewhere in the magazine it's reported that there seems to be an increased

interest in kitbuilding, with the commentator expressing the view that ARTF (almost ready to fly) planes

help get people into the hobby, some of whom are then drawn to the more creative, constructional

side of it, and with CAD and laser-cutting, etc, coming into prominence, kits can take advantage of

the best of current technologies.

 

Perhaps one of the UK railway modelling mags could do a special issue purely on traditional

kitbuilding skills, in similar vein.

 

 

Al

Edited October 8, 2019 by Barry Ten

[CF MRC]

4 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

As I understand it, Joe's Hush-hush, along with other models that he made, went to his nephews and nieces - or their children - as he had no children of his own.  It was rumoured that these fabulous models were played with as push along toys by tiny tots . . .

 

Tragically, Pendon had (alledgedly) upset Joe so he stipulated that none of his models should end up there.

 

A lovely man and a great loss.

 

Stan

Joe offered them some of his teak veneer coaches.  They didn’t like them. He was mortified. 

 

Tim

[micklner]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Brian,

 

I was once told by a friend that he'd been asked to source drawings of the original W1 by an RTR manufacturer, but nothing seemed to come of it. This was some time ago. 

 

Of course, an RTR example has been available for some time in O Gauge..................... at a price!

 

 

This is the Korean brass one by Loveless. One would have thought at the price (over £2,500.00, maybe more?) the tender should have the correct-type wheels. They should be disc, not spoked. 

 

It's certainly painted in 'dark, battleship grey'. I don't think the buffer beam should be painted red.

 

 

My friend, Nick Dunhill (one of the best model loco-builders I know), built the original W1 in O Gauge from an ACE kit - well, he used some of the nuts and bolts and the kit's box! 

 

He painted his a much-lighter grey. I wonder which is correct? He's got the right tender wheels, though. 

 

The W1 on The Gresley Beat was built from a SE Finecast kit..............

 

 

 

The colour seems to be somewhere between the two O Gauge ones.

 

 I suppose from 'selfish' motives, I hope the original W1 doesn't ever come out RTR in OO. Why? Because it would be yet another nail in the kit-makers coffin and, if one sees one on a layout, it must have been built, and, thus, has a much more interesting story behind it. 

 

It's no doubt that such an attitude will not appeal to those who feel their 'yuman rights' are being abused if they don't get all the RTR locos demanded in the 'wish lists', but this hobby is about making things, after all. Well, it is to me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

http://www.loveless.co.uk/hushhush/

 

Grey top on this one .

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Morning All

on the topic of the death of steam era I find the most noticeable change on most layouts now is the desire to have locos and rolling stock weathered, think back to twenty or thirty years ago you wouldn’t find many on exhibition layouts looking that way, I have a friend in his eighties who hates weathered engines he likes to remember shining locos rolling into Paddington but that’s something that for me was a rare treat to see , an odd engine that was ex works was the best chance for me to see a shining example.

Dennis

Good evening Dennis,

 

I suppose the weathering of locos/stock (and structures?) is a recent phenomenon on model railways. Except that the group I belong to has always done it.

 

When WMRC built the likes of Fordley Park Leighford, Stoke Summit and Charwelton, nothing was 'allowed' to run unless it was weathered; even if this meant the likes of ex-works locos with some soot-staining on the top of the boiler and definitely weathered motion. All carriages, even if the sides might be clean, had (still have) weathered roofs and bogies/underframes, including Pullman cars. 

 

When I have my locos professionally painted by Ian Rathbone and Geoff Haynes, I always stipulate 'light' weathering if a loco is fully-lined; it would be ridiculous to obliterate a pro' paint job. Unlined black is different - I usually paint those myself and make them filthy; observing prototype pictures at all times. Some are clean as well, with the occasional one just ex-works. I'm lucky that some weathering of locos/stock on LB has been done by Tom Foster and Geoff Haynes (the latter for his book). Whatever weathering is done, it should not all be to the same degree. 

 

Strangely (or is it strange?), I believe weathering is something any modeller, whatever their experience, should be able to do. Yet (and good on them), firms offer a full weathering service on RTR products, at an extra cost of course. What's strange is that many won't contemplate weathering their RTR prides and joys; because it lessens their value!  To be fair as well, with some OO RTR locos now approaching £200.00 (or more), 'ruining' such a thing with a horrid weathering job is a costly mistake to make. 

 

If, in our modelling, we try to make what we build/modify look as accurate as possible, then weathering is essential in my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

4 minutes ago, micklner said:

http://www.loveless.co.uk/hushhush/

 

Grey top on this one .

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find most interesting is that in all the shots of the original W1 in the post (assuming it's the same loco in every one), no two have exactly the same grey colour. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[D.Platt]

Good evening Tony

I did say not many layouts , the WMRC was always an exception and that’s why the likes of Stoke Summit was a magnet for me. All that was missing was some butties and a bottle of pop to watch all the fabulous trains go by .

 

Like you say it’s strange reading on here how people don’t want to spoil their RTR models fine finish , if they are frightened or don’t wish to devalue the model only they know, but after hours of building then painting and lining out a loco into ex works condition I don’t consider it finished until it receives some form of weathering ! as to devaluing a model my take is I’ve played with it and had the pleasure from it and when I’ve popped mi clogs  Am I bothered !!!

Dennis

[Stanley Melrose]

Thanks for the clarification and confirmation, Tim.  You may not be aware of the identity of the person behind the nom de plume but we both knew and respected Joe all those years ago.

 

What a tragedy that the models Joe made did not make it to preservation and display.  His use of teak veneers on his coaches as well as his use of paper pressed in tools of his own design to manufacture the sides was just another example of his skills - along with making his own wheels.  His layout based on Stevenage was worthy of display in a museum but it wasn't.

 

What skills he possessed - somewhat like yours but he was a toolmaker and not a dentist!

 

Stan

[Anglian]

With regard to the different grey tones of the Hush-Hush models – before I read the posts my immediate thought was that the darker grey was the in-service livery and the lighter grey represented the finish for photography, prior to service.

 

[Willie Whizz]

On 05/10/2019 at 18:06, APOLLO said:

What a superb railway the old GC line was, until the rot set in the early 60's. At least it was mostly steam worked to the end.

 

 

 

(Just catching-up with the thread after a couple of days away ...)

 

Indeed it was - but in modelling terms I am still, after much effort, finding it a complete pain to try and devise a plausible, operationally satisfactory and tolerably authentic track plan of a station (even somewhat truncated), passing loops and goods yard for anything more than the most basic and rural of GC-style stations to be built in a comparatively moderate space.  I had something that would have been workable a couple of years back, and built half the boards, but then had to move house - and having finally been able to come back to the issue in recent weeks, find the old plan doesn't fit the new space and can't easily be adapted.  Trading a little less length for a little more width certainly doesn't seem to work on the GC!

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find most interesting is that in all the shots of the original W1 in the post (assuming it's the same loco in every one), no two have exactly the same grey colour. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Evening Tony,

 

more to do with individual photographers and their cameras than the actual colour of the locomotives. I've seen a batch of these lined up for dispatch, the colour was identical on each.

 

With regard to black paint on the 'Hush Hush'. In the condition represented by the three models featured, the inside of the tender coal space, the water space and the backhead and were painted black. On the locomotives first run, it is believed that the cab roof and top of the tender sides were black, the finish of the locomotive looks rather shabby in photographs taken at the time. Within days the black paint had gone, the loco was nice and glossy and prominent hand rails had been fitted to the front platform above the bufferbeam. This is the condition that the official photographs were taken and is the most familiar appearance to railway modellers.

[Headstock]

16 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

(Just catching-up with the thread after a couple of days away ...)

 

Indeed it was - but in modelling terms I am still, after much effort, finding it a complete pain to try and devise a plausible, operationally satisfactory and tolerably authentic track plan of a station (even somewhat truncated), passing loops and goods yard for anything more than the most basic and rural of GC-style stations to be built in a comparatively moderate space.  I had something that would have been workable a couple of years back, and built half the boards, but then had to move house - and having finally been able to come back to the issue in recent weeks, find the old plan doesn't fit the new space and can't easily be adapted.  Trading a little less length for a little more width certainly doesn't seem to work on the GC!

 

Ditch the station and there are some great locations that would make wonderful models.

[davefrk]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47163833

 

What an excellent piece of reportage.

 

Hi St Enodoc, Yes it did come across well and incidently it was talked about a wee while ago on here. It was really some bits and pieces filmed for a new tv channel here in Scotland and the young lad who did the piece for the BBC knew what he was doing as he was an aircraft modeller, at the end of the day he said he may offer the piece to the news boys and they used it on a slow news day....

 

Dave Franks.

And we've had a lot of slagging off about it too.

Edited October 8, 2019 by davefrk

[Lecorbusier]

4 minutes ago, davefrk said:

 

And we've had a lot of slagging off about it too.

On what grounds ? .... what's not to like? 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Lecorbusier

[davefrk]

1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

On what grounds ? .... what's not to like? 

 

Just for being on the telly again....

 

Now Porcy will roll out that clip from the TV Thirty Nine Steps again.

I used to do a bit of acting and 'Extra's' work until a couple of years ago.

Best forgotten.

 

Dave Franks

[Barry Ten]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

If, in our modelling, we try to make what we build/modify look as accurate as possible, then weathering is essential in my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

As a young modeller the articles that inspired me to have a go at weathering were in Railway Modeller in - at a guess - the very late 70s or early 80s, by a gentleman called Ken something (possibly Davies?). I seem to remember he showed some detailing and reworkings of Hornby locos such as the Patriot and Fowler tank which were not just well modelled, but well photographed in a natural setting.

[MarkC]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find most interesting is that in all the shots of the original W1 in the post (assuming it's the same loco in every one), no two have exactly the same grey colour. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Would the characteristics of different film stock perhaps have something to do with it too, Tony?

 

Speaking of characteristics, I recall reading somewhere, sadly not where at this moment in time, about another reason for grey having so many shades. Paint, even from the same supplier, was mixed by hand, and there wasn't the same quality control that is strived for these days. Indeed, even after its arrival in the workshops, the ends of the contents of different cans would be mixed together at times - and why not? It's only grey, and ultimately it's more of a water repellent/material protector than anything else, particularly when applied to working wagons.

 

Then, as mentioned upthread, there was natural weathering, depending on many other factors - atmospheric pollution, paint quality, ageing etc etc...

 

Mark

[micklner]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find most interesting is that in all the shots of the original W1 in the post (assuming it's the same loco in every one), no two have exactly the same grey colour. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Variations in these photos are interesting . I would go for Dark Grey personally.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/W/w1.php

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,

 

more to do with individual photographers and their cameras than the actual colour of the locomotives. I've seen a batch of these lined up for dispatch, the colour was identical on each.

 

With regard to black paint on the 'Hush Hush'. In the condition represented by the three models featured, the inside of the tender coal space, the water space and the backhead and were painted black. On the locomotives first run, it is believed that the cab roof and top of the tender sides were black, the finish of the locomotive looks rather shabby in photographs taken at the time. Within days the black paint had gone, the loco was nice and glossy and prominent hand rails had been fitted to the front platform above the bufferbeam. This is the condition that the official photographs were taken and is the most familiar appearance to railway modellers.

Good morning Andrew,

 

'more to do with individual photographers and their cameras than the actual colour of the locomotives.'

 

I'd made that assumption. Not to mention different lighting as well?

 

Which just goes to show, be very careful of any colours in photographs, be they of the real thing or models!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

Would the characteristics of different film stock perhaps have something to do with it too, Tony?

 

Speaking of characteristics, I recall reading somewhere, sadly not where at this moment in time, about another reason for grey having so many shades. Paint, even from the same supplier, was mixed by hand, and there wasn't the same quality control that is strived for these days. Indeed, even after its arrival in the workshops, the ends of the contents of different cans would be mixed together at times - and why not? It's only grey, and ultimately it's more of a water repellent/material protector than anything else, particularly when applied to working wagons.

 

Then, as mentioned upthread, there was natural weathering, depending on many other factors - atmospheric pollution, paint quality, ageing etc etc...

 

Mark

I imagine they're shot digitally, Mark.

 

As I've mentioned earlier, it's probably more to do with the lighting. 

 

I'm intrigued by this colour 'battleship grey'. I've only ever seen one battleship in the flesh (though I must get over the pond to see the American survivors, because I consider them to be the most impressive vessels of war ever made). It was a KGV Class one, in about 1954, in the docks at Liverpool. I saw it from the Liverpool Overhead Railway. My memory, as an eight year old, is one of it being very dark. Yet, looking at B&W pictures of VANGUARD recently, she was very light grey. Perhaps on a Mediterranean cruise? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

From the impressive size of the W1, to something rather smaller...............................

 

 

Just received for photography is this pair of tiny Ruston and Hornsby  four-wheeled shunters from Hornby, attached to match trucks with pick-ups. 

 

A full review will be appearing soon in BRM.