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I have just been catching up on the recent posts. My goodness, this Railway Modelling is serious stuff, isn't it?  Makes Brexit look like child's play. For those seeking prototype fidelity, look away now from this post.

 

Even I can't dream up an excuse for these two to pass Little Benton, so Tyneside has somehow been translated to East Anglia. These locos have a bit of sentimental value, so I dig them out from time to time. The BEC J17 was the second kit I ever built - a birthday present from my then-girlfriend, now my wife of 45 years. It originally ran on a Triang chassis, then had Romfords fitted, then had the chassis ground out to take a motor/gearbox, and now runs on a Hornby Jinty chassis.

 

The K5 was an early carve-up of a GBL K3, and is, frankly, a bit of a mess, but it runs OK on a modified Bachmann V1/3 chassis and just about passes muster from normal viewing. It was actually at Blaydon shortly after rebuilding, but too early for my period, and was probably still in LNER livery when it headed south.

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10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I might be talking complete poppycock (quiet at the back there...) but perhaps in carrying out your mods to the pony track you've inadvertently taken some weight off the drivers?

 

2 hours ago, Denbridge said:

I think wheel profiles make a big difference. I fitted Romford wheels on some RTR chassis a few years back. They were noticeably better haulers than the original models. The more recent Hornby models have better wheels than older models.

 

1 hour ago, davefrk said:

Talking about RTR loco haulage, I think the problem is the shiney chome plated wheels that modern models have. I have a few Bachmann 4Fs which people have complained about their lack of haulage power, mine have Gibson EM steel wheels fitted and they can easily take 60 wagons round Wharfeside. Another model which is often complained about is the Bachmann Jubilee, mine again fitted with Gibson wheels but not yet detailed or weathered (still not!) can be seen below walking away with thirty coaches though I have to say all the Bachmann coaches have had brass bearings fitted due to the sharp pinpoints of the Gibson wheels chewing away the plastic bogie to the point of a couple of wheels rubbing on the coach floor!!! The Hornby coach bogies are a better plastic so they don't need that work yet.

 

I don't like to pile the weight into RTR locos as I feel it is mechanical cruelty but I do make sure the rolling stock is free to roll and I prefer to be kind to loco mechanisms by making sure the scale length trains are well within the loco's capacity. Kit built locos are different, one usually has an idea of what they should be capable of, the record holder for the moment is a fully sprung unweighted DJH 8F  which has taken for a walk all 117 wagons that were on the layout that night so it's more usual load of thirty five wagons should make it last more than a couple of years.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Dave Franks

Thanks for thoughts guys.

 

The weight is where it should be John and the rear pony is free to flop about in the vertical direction (no sniggering at the back). The loco IS better with the weight added but still can't manage 11 up the bank. I have previously improved a Bachmann Jubilee which does have weight in it as manufactured - but packed into the smokebox making them front heavy. There is just room to get an approx 4mm thick piece of lead behind the motor, up against the inside of the backhead (ie squarely over the rear driver) and that increased its haulage power up the bank by two coaches (eight instead of six).

 

The theory about wheel profiles is a good shout - that's sound logic if that is indeed the difference between the current and previous Hornby offerings. I'll check that out as I can compare with my 46256.

 

30 coaches is indeed impressive behind a Bachmann Jubilee ... but up a 1-in-90 incline? (I've compromised slightly on the Shap layout - it should of course be 1-in75 - due to the need to lose the height again round the back of the layout)

 

More nice photos, thanks Tony. Of course the blue Ford Anglia is an anachronism for the late 1950s (it is plated up as my Dad's 1967 E reg) ... but at least it isn't flying above Glenfinnan viaduct.

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3 hours ago, Denbridge said:

I think wheel profiles make a big difference. I fitted Romford wheels on some RTR chassis a few years back. They were noticeably better haulers than the original models. The more recent Hornby models have better wheels than older models.

Agree.  Many years ago I had a couple of Triang (or Triang Hornby - it's all just a name to me) Hymeks which were excellent looking machines but could not remove the skin off a rice pudding let alone pull any sort of load, even with some careful ballasting.  But after Eames turned down the powered bogie wheels to a proper (BRMSB) profile the change in performance was startling.  So no difference in the metal used but the simple change to getting a decent profile and a properly machined running tread on the wheel made all the difference.     (The same happened with an EE Type 3, notwithstanding its grossly inaccurate bogie - wheels lathe turned and performance totally changed.)

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2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Agree.  Many years ago I had a couple of Triang (or Triang Hornby - it's all just a name to me) Hymeks which were excellent looking machines but could not remove the skin off a rice pudding let alone pull any sort of load, even with some careful ballasting.  But after Eames turned down the powered bogie wheels to a proper (BRMSB) profile the change in performance was startling.  So no difference in the metal used but the simple change to getting a decent profile and a properly machined running tread on the wheel made all the difference.     (The same happened with an EE Type 3, notwithstanding its grossly inaccurate bogie - wheels lathe turned and performance totally changed.)

Magnadhesion is (was) your friend.

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1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

Agree.  Many years ago I had a couple of Triang (or Triang Hornby - it's all just a name to me) Hymeks which were excellent looking machines but could not remove the skin off a rice pudding let alone pull any sort of load, even with some careful ballasting.  But after Eames turned down the powered bogie wheels to a proper (BRMSB) profile the change in performance was startling.  So no difference in the metal used but the simple change to getting a decent profile and a properly machined running tread on the wheel made all the difference.     (The same happened with an EE Type 3, notwithstanding its grossly inaccurate bogie - wheels lathe turned and performance totally changed.)

 

I've had a similar experience with Ultrascale wheel replacements on Lima diesels. Even though you're losing the traction tyre. and with the case of the Western, only getting two driven axles  (equivalent to a Pug!), the haulage capabilities don't seem to be seriously affected.

 

In general, I find the whole weight/adhesion/pulling power issue to be fairly non-intuitive, often throwing up results that aren't necessarily what you'd expect, suggesting that the tricky fundamentals of wheel profile and tyre constituency play a significantly bigger part than just adding more weight over the drivers.

 

Al

 

 

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2 hours ago, davefrk said:

Talking about RTR loco haulage, I think the problem is the shiney chome plated wheels that modern models have. I have a few Bachmann 4Fs which people have complained about their lack of haulage power, mine have Gibson EM steel wheels fitted and they can easily take 60 wagons round Wharfeside. Another model which is often complained about is the Bachmann Jubilee, mine again fitted with Gibson wheels but not yet detailed or weathered (still not!) can be seen below walking away with thirty coaches though I have to say all the Bachmann coaches have had brass bearings fitted due to the sharp pinpoints of the Gibson wheels chewing away the plastic bogie to the point of a couple of wheels rubbing on the coach floor!!! The Hornby coach bogies are a better plastic so they don't need that work yet.

 

I don't like to pile the weight into RTR locos as I feel it is mechanical cruelty but I do make sure the rolling stock is free to roll and I prefer to be kind to loco mechanisms by making sure the scale length trains are well within the loco's capacity. Kit built locos are different, one usually has an idea of what they should be capable of, the record holder for the moment is a fully sprung unweighted DJH 8F  which has taken for a walk all 117 wagons that were on the layout that night so it's more usual load of thirty five wagons should make it last more than a couple of years.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Dave Franks

Hi Dave

 

The tank wagons, what is the origin of them, please?

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ICI liquified ammonia tankers.

Tank barrel and ends from EMA (Plastruct) temporarily held together with blu-tac, wagon chassis from Dapol (possibly temporary), castings from Lanarkshire Models. Photo by Tony Lambert.

End supports drilled,tapped and bolted to the Dapol chassis as glue doesn't work on shiney plastic....

Tank saddles just hanging loose for the moment. Tank filler/dome still to be made and cast and walkway/ladders still to be etched, just wish I had more time.

image.png.291ce7fc2d6cef5ff205e42915b5a381.png

 

Hope that helps,

 

Dave Franks

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4 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Would they have still been in that colour scheme In the late 50s Tony’? Or will they be undertaking a re paint? 

There's no way I'm repainting those, Jesse,

 

They're painted so well. 

 

I might contemplate changing the numbers to early BR-style. However, though the GN main line depiction on LB is fairly tight to 1958, the MR/M&GNR bit is much more flexible (Rule 1!). The period represented is the last decade of the line's existence; thus at the start of the period, Nationalisation has just taken place, so a lot of stock will still be in 'Big Four' condition. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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You might add an 'E' to the numbers using an ex-LNER transfer, Tony.  That was very common in the immediate post-nationalisation years.  Pregrouping carriages were generally slated for early withdrawal and not painted Crimson, although the brown might be touched up or patch painted. 

 

We run two of the matchboard 3rds on Wickham Market - they're a very distinctive (if somewhat ugly) carriage.  I have a number of clerestories as well as these were the most numerous of the different types which were cascaded.

 

WM-pass-up-2.jpg

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3 hours ago, davefrk said:

ICI liquified ammonia tankers.

Tank barrel and ends from EMA (Plastruct) temporarily held together with blu-tac, wagon chassis from Dapol (possibly temporary), castings from Lanarkshire Models. Photo by Tony Lambert.

End supports drilled,tapped and bolted to the Dapol chassis as glue doesn't work on shiney plastic....

Tank saddles just hanging loose for the moment. Tank filler/dome still to be made and cast and walkway/ladders still to be etched, just wish I had more time.

image.png.291ce7fc2d6cef5ff205e42915b5a381.png

 

Hope that helps,

 

Dave Franks

Thanks Dave

 

There are not many people who model tank wagons. Here is one I built from a bit of pipe (from B&Q), plastic card and a Parkside (I think) chassis.  The manhole came from a Trix tank wagon. I was going to try and upgrade the Trix wagon like I have done some old Tri-ang ones by replacing the chassis with a Parkside one. The barrel was too short.

1564069944_008small.jpg.b7e53f49563302a0bbf95b16ee2e0fcb.jpg

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966725719_12small.jpg.ea6ac371d22a6a7e408f5f46f1e188cc.jpg

Here it is with some refurbished Tri-ang B tanks.

1481946266_14small.jpg.e20bdf178eb2be80b94afdb7d49aa329.jpg

 

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Re haulage capacity, check the back set of driving wheels?  I have a Hornby Black 5 and a friend has a Battle of Britain (I think, 4-6-0 anyway one of them wrong green locos that all look the same) of about the same time period as your loco.  I upgraded my Black 5 with a Brassmaster Kit and it looked great but it struggled to manage 5 Bachmann Mk1s. whereas my  footballer, also a 4-6-0, will pull 9/10.  Had a good look at it and found that the back set of drivers are on some sort of sprung suspension system that perhaps improves electrical contact but the spring load is so light that effectively it is a 4-4-0.  Examination of the Hornby drawing confirmed this set-up.  My friend had been complaining about his Battle of Britain, on checking it was the same sort of suspension.   Hornby seem to have eliminated this set-up on more recent models although I have no idea what recent means.  One of this winters projects is to see if I can modify this arrangement.

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5 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

 

 

Use hide post. I asked the same question recently and that was the given answer.  Once hidden there isn't an unhide so be careful.

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19 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony

 

I bought a part built D&S NE Newspaper van a couple of weeks back whilst in Canberra for the BRMA Convention - an interesting vehicle - seems like there was only one built, it was a test case but the NE only built 6 wheel vans for this traffic thereafter. Hope I can build it as well as the one above?

 

I also have one of the 3rds illustrated above which I bought many years ago - its in the roundtuit drawer!  

 

During the convention weekend I also bought an unbuilt D&S non-gangwayed elliptical roof composite. as well a a range of other NE stock, including a part built a D&S NE horsebox and a part built Chivers 4 wheel NE CCT - something I've been looking for for a while.

 

Regards

 

Andrew 

Andrew, if you need any info sing out as I am slowly assembling NER information. I am glad you have a few interesting projects to go on with, I have just about completed the Dave Bradwell J39 chassis, but I have a heap of things to finish off which came from the same convention. I am most interested to get on with the NEr Auto coach to go with my G5 or G6. 

 

Chat soon. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, DougN said:

Andrew, if you need any info sing out as I am slowly assembling NER information. I am glad you have a few interesting projects to go on with, I have just about completed the Dave Bradwell J39 chassis, but I have a heap of things to finish off which came from the same convention. I am most interested to get on with the NEr Auto coach to go with my G5 or G6. 

 

Chat soon. 

 

 

Thanks Doug

 

Andrew

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20 hours ago, Theakerr said:

Re haulage capacity, check the back set of driving wheels?  I have a Hornby Black 5 and a friend has a Battle of Britain (I think, 4-6-0 anyway one of them wrong green locos that all look the same) of about the same time period as your loco.  I upgraded my Black 5 with a Brassmaster Kit and it looked great but it struggled to manage 5 Bachmann Mk1s. whereas my  footballer, also a 4-6-0, will pull 9/10.  Had a good look at it and found that the back set of drivers are on some sort of sprung suspension system that perhaps improves electrical contact but the spring load is so light that effectively it is a 4-4-0.  Examination of the Hornby drawing confirmed this set-up.  My friend had been complaining about his Battle of Britain, on checking it was the same sort of suspension.   Hornby seem to have eliminated this set-up on more recent models although I have no idea what recent means.  One of this winters projects is to see if I can modify this arrangement.

 

I'm thinking that the best way to simulate prototype haulage in model railways is to have very weak (or deliberately weakened) motors in locomotives, very high inertia in locos and cars, and extremely low stiction and friction in all vehicles. Given the issue of adding high inertia, that is most easily created by weighting everything.  But that does limit the ability to haul up grades. In my case I could forfeit true grades and just have all level trackage. After all one can tilt the vertical in scenic grades to some extent to somewhat fool the sideways viewers.

 

The end result would be that all model locos would be able to pull their prototypical loads at prototype speeds - eventually - but would take a more realistic amount of time getting there. All without extra electronics. Or - getting fanciful - adding a power boost function just for gradients.

 

Tim

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3 hours ago, Hitchin Junction said:

 

I'm thinking that the best way to simulate prototype haulage in model railways is to have very weak (or deliberately weakened) motors in locomotives, very high inertia in locos and cars, and extremely low stiction and friction in all vehicles. Given the issue of adding high inertia, that is most easily created by weighting everything.  But that does limit the ability to haul up grades. In my case I could forfeit true grades and just have all level trackage. After all one can tilt the vertical in scenic grades to some extent to somewhat fool the sideways viewers.

 

The end result would be that all model locos would be able to pull their prototypical loads at prototype speeds - eventually - but would take a more realistic amount of time getting there. All without extra electronics. Or - getting fanciful - adding a power boost function just for gradients.

 

Tim

 

The driving characteristics you describe can be easily programmed into a DCC chip.  I have a Deltic with the inertia set so that it takes about 30 feet to draw up to a halt.  It certainly makes for different driving characteristics when pulling into a station!

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12 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

The driving characteristics you describe can be easily programmed into a DCC chip.  I have a Deltic with the inertia set so that it takes about 30 feet to draw up to a halt.  It certainly makes for different driving characteristics when pulling into a station!

That is fine until you want to stop it accurately on an uncoupling magnet. Having locos with different levels of inertia was a total nightmare so we took it all out and went back to a basic method of allowing the driver to decide how, where and when to stop rather than a microchip with no common sense.

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15 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

That is fine until you want to stop it accurately on an uncoupling magnet. Having locos with different levels of inertia was a total nightmare so we took it all out and went back to a basic method of allowing the driver to decide how, where and when to stop rather than a microchip with no common sense.

The Deltic runs on the mainline with a fixed rake and inertia kicks in when decelerating from higher speeds.  If you’re using a loco for shunting, you’d programme in different characteristics, surely.  Horses for courses...

 

I was simply responding to Hitchin Junction’s comment about a situation where he thought inertia was desirable.

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