Wright writes.....

[Niels]

7 hours ago, jrg1 said:

In all the posts regarding the merits of heavy goods locomotives, why has there been no mention of the GWR 47xx class?  

Fast, powerful, versatile and at home on heavy mixed traffic-and only nine were ever built.

 

Around ww1 civil engineers began to understand and could calculate the rail disturbing forces from steam locomotives.

The 47xx had ca nine tons on each driver.

It had very short connecting rod driving second driver.

Pulling hard forward this means that the driven wheel will be pushed downward with further 6 tons and the two neigbouring wheels will unload three tons each when piston is midway.Going backward we are getting close to wheel lifting and that is a no-no.

The cure had been to drive onto third axle like everywhere else with 2-8-0s but this would have been very long connecting rods and considered unsafe at the time.

 

[drmditch]

Re: Freight engines.

Surprised no-one has mentioned the Thompson O1.

Robinson frame, Gresley boiler, Gresley/Thompson cylinders. Surely a combination of strengths, as well as showing up very favourably in the 1948 trials.

 

By-the-way, in the above discussions on developments and re-boilerings, surely the small matter of first-costs, jigs and maintenance should all be considered. I understand that in later years the decision between re-boilering to an O4/8, or re-building to O1 depended on the condition of the cylinders at the time.

 

As regards looks, I really like the O4/8s. Like the NER 2-8-0 Darlington never built!

 

[Clive Mortimore]

I am not a fan of the "Sheds" but they must be the most successful freight locomotive class to run in the UK. And the most colourful.

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

The LMS society,

 

The LNER had aprox 60,000 fitted vans and wagons out of a total fleet of aprox 295,000 wagons. The LMS had aprox 20,000 fitted vans and wagons from a fleet of aprox 350,000 vans and wagons. The other two were well behind in comparison. I'm not sure on the last question.

 

@Headstock, please could you be a little more precise, as I'd like to follow this up - what publication?

 

I've had a look in P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005); in his introduction he tabulates the number of wagons owned by each of the grouping companies and their approximate contribution to the pool. The total figure for LNER wagons at 31 Dec 1922 is 284,488, of which approximately 170,000 were in the pool (60%), and for the LMS, 303,797, with 217,000 pooled (71%). These totals decline down the years, never reaching the numbers you mention. (Figures are given for 1931, 1939, and 1946.) The LNER group had a much higher proportion of non-pooled wagons. My suspicion is that this was due to the North Eastern's contribution: a very large fleet of hopper wagons dedicated to circuit mineral traffic, in lieu of the PO wagons in which such traffic was conveyed in the southern areas.

 

Tatlow doesn't discuss the proportion of fitted wagons - but I only have Vols. 1 and 2 - maybe this question is addressed in the volumes devoted to LNER-built stock?

[grahame]

19 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am not a fan of the "Sheds" but they must be the most successful freight locomotive class to run in the UK. And the most colourful.

 

Yep, although IMO the similar earlier class 59s were more charismatic and interesting.

 

[MJI]

Steam freights I do like the following

 

9F especially, have a print done by the late owner of one, but my favourite was in green.

28xx, just a good early design I knew a few owners of an early one.

8F, an improved 28xx like the Black 5 is an improved Hall.

 

I live not too far from SVR so have had numerous trips behind 2857 and 8233/48773.

 

Diesel wise 56s are my favourites but 60s are best.

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

 

I'm relieved!

I had been waiting for the Southern to get a look in!

 

To continue the theme, whilst the Maunsell S15 was the more efficient locomotive, the ex South Western enginemen preferred the Urie version on freight traffic, especially in bad weather.

Bill

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, chrisf said:

145 miles from Cardiff to Paddington

I read today that GWR have just done it in 1 hour 33 minutes.

Edited October 25, 2019 by St Enodoc
Fat fingers

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

The LMS society,

 

The LNER had aprox 60,000 fitted vans and wagons out of a total fleet of aprox 295,000 wagons. The LMS had aprox 20,000 fitted vans and wagons from a fleet of aprox 350,000 vans and wagons. The other two were well behind in comparison. I'm not sure on the last question.

 

I did the stats many moons ago.  Excluding  mineral wagons, the percentages in 1930 were: LMS 44%, LNER 33%, COR 17%, SR 6%.  This barely changed over grouping with the SR nudging up at the expense of the northern companies.  A couple of facts:  at grouping, most companies had about 10% of their wagons comprising covered vans; but this was 20% for the LSWR, many of which were fitted for the Southampton Docks traffic.  Then the L&Y was possibly the most progressive railway for wagon design and construction.

 

Bill

 

ps: COR = certain other railway.

[grahame]

3 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

ps: COR = certain other railway.

 

And there was me thinking that it stood for Corroded, Old and Rusty.

;-)

 

 

[ecgtheow]

15 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Well it's big but it's not exactly elegant and, if you've got that much loading gauge to play with, designing a very large loco is comparatively easier.

 

Anyway it wasn't built in Britain.

 

Personally, I think the best goods engines built in Britain were these .

preserved 140-C-231 at Nogent sur Seine on 24th May 1987 : Creative Commons by Didier Duforest

 

From a total class of 340 locos designed by the Etat railway just 70 were built in France in 1913. All the rest were built in Britain between 1916 and 1920; 20 by Naysmith Wilson, 35 by Vulcan Foundry  and 215 by North British in Glasgow.

 

These also ended up being the the last class of main line steam locos in commercial service in France and 140C 287, one of the final North British batch delivered in 1917, hauled the country's last commercial steam train in September 1975. Being the last class in service allowed eight of these locos, all British built,  to avoid the scrapper's torch, one from Vulcan foundry and seven from North British including 140 C 287.

 

Preserved locos may be beautifully polished but these were hardworking goods locos 

140C188 at Sommesous (Marne) between  Troyes et Chalons-sur-Marne 23rd September 1958: CC by Ben Brooksbank

 

That may be a bit OT but it's interesting how many people's favourite heavy goods locos are 2-8-0s

Wherever they're working and whether built by Baldwin or the GWR,  I do find the  most aesthetically pleasing goods locos to be Consolidations. They just seem right in the role with an extra pair of generally smaller driving wheels to show they're built for heavy goods not speed but not going over the top with ten or more drivers.

 

 

 

 

[ecgtheow]

Though not built in Britain there were other successful 2-8-0 locomotives introduced in Europe at about the same time as the GWR 28XX. How about the Gotthardbahn C4/5 class? According to Locobase these locos were 4-cylinder compound motion, bar frame, high-pitched boiler with wide frame firebox unhampered by the wheels & fitted with superheaters introduced in 1906 & could manage an average speed of 17 mph up the mountains & 40 mph on the level. Their tonnage ratings were:

 

Mountain - freight 180 tons & passenger 260 tons (though there is some confusion about the latter figure)

 

Level - freight 520 tons & passenger 800 tons

 

Anyone who has driven over the Gotthard pass will realise that these are very impressive data for their time. Since they also had to descend as well as climb the passes they must have had impressive braking power too. As Swiss Railways decided to make no more steam locomotives after 1917 (the last were the C5/6 2-10-0 development of the C4/5) in favour of electric traction (Clive Mortimer will be pleased about that?) they are scrapped in 1925.

 

The photo above is a Lemaco HO model. I have one but to respond while this topic is still quite current it was easier to use this stock shot.

 

 

[The Fatadder]

An interesting discussion on the heavy freight locos.  For me I think my favourite was always the 2884 series, the rebuilding of the cab makes them look not quite so old fashioned.   It’s amazing to think that such an old design lasted so well.

 

i have managed to do at least a little modelling to mine, converting it to an oil burner.

 

Its a shame there was never a similar modernisation of the 47xx, it would have looked very impressive with a ‘proper’ cab on it!  It does remind me I really must get on and get mine working (pickup problems I believe) built from a PDK kit.  (The con rod is deliberately not fitted while I work on the running issues).  It also needs work sorting out the dodgy weathering...

 

My favourite non GW prototype has to be the 9f,  the only BR standard that I would love to have a model of!  There’s something about the size of it along with that huge gap between boiler and chassis...

[Jesse Sim]

I still think Thompson was better then Gresley

 

 

Hat

 

 

 

 

 

coat

 

 

 

 

and most definitely gone  

[Staffordshire]

And the GWR/BR  47xx  were not bad either in my opinion .... 

[APOLLO]

What about these ? - Fireman's nightmare so I read. Lots of them built / converted etc. Another freight loco with a long and complicated history.

 

Another of Dad's photos on Boars Head bank. Late 50's. At least she is fairly steam tight.

 

Brit15

[john new]

5 hours ago, chrisf said:

 

It seems that Canton regarded "Evening Star" as at least the equal of a Britannia.  There must have been red faces when she arived at Paddington 20 minutes early on the up "Red Dragon" and not just because passengers were still eating their lunch.  The schedule of 180 minutes for the 145 miles from Cardiff to Paddington was a joke.

 

Chris

IIRC the class were banned from express work after one was clocked through Southall in the low 90mph range by the authorities. I can’t remember the source but it was reported in one of the monthly magazines at the time, and is probably repeated in other books. 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am not a fan of the "Sheds" but they must be the most successful freight locomotive class to run in the UK. And the most colourful.

Just a Class 59 with one of its best features left out, the "creep" transmission system.

 

That adds around 12,000lb to a 59's starting TE and 6,000 to the continuous rating when compared to its newer lookalikes, around 10% overall, from the same engine horsepower.

 

It didn't come cheap, however, and EWS had to make a trade-off between numbers and grunt when they ordered the initial 250 Class 66s.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 

To continue the theme, whilst the Maunsell S15 was the more efficient locomotive, the ex South Western enginemen preferred the Urie version on freight traffic, especially in bad weather.

Bill

In the early sixties we had 800s (Maunsells) down here on Salisbury-Exeter stoppers formed of a 3-set with or without a van.

 

With 5'7" drivers and 6F grunt on such light loads, the acceleration away from stations wasn't bettered until the Class 159s came along thirty years later*.

 

John   

 

EDIT: * Apart from one occasion when I rode up to Salisbury in a set of 5 coaches with a pair of Class 50s on the front...

Edited October 25, 2019 by Dunsignalling
*

[grahame]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Just a Class 59 with one of its best features left out, the "creep" transmission system.

 

 

 

Hmm, not quite that similar and simple especially when it comes to bashing one (class 59) from a RTR class 66 in N/2mm. Different panel positions, different bogies, different roof layout, different exhaust, different fuel tank/underframe, etc:

 

 

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

An interesting discussion on the heavy freight locos.  For me I think my favourite was always the 2884 series, the rebuilding of the cab makes them look not quite so old fashioned.   It’s amazing to think that such an old design lasted so well.

 

i have managed to do at least a little modelling to mine, converting it to an oil burner.

 

 

 

 

Looks as if it's perched delicately atop Donald Trump's hair.

[grahame]

And here's that N/2mm class 59 on it's own (not compared with a class 66). A RTR version has been promised for eons but never produced so I made my own:

 

 

 

Apologies for the poor photography and rather cruel close-ups. But it's quite an old model now and old snaps.

Edited October 25, 2019 by grahame

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, grahame said:

 

Hmm, not quite that similar and simple especially when it comes to bashing one (class 59) from a RTR class 66 in N/2mm. Different panel positions, different bogies, different roof layout, different exhaust, different fuel tank/underframe, etc:

 

 

But clearly derived from its elder brethren, and IIRC basically the same motor.

 

I remember drivers calling into the box when we had 66s moving up to Eastleigh from down West for attention, Then, they were new enough not to have yet had general overhauls. Several were quite disparaging about the build quality, especially draughts and rattles from ill-fitting doors.

 

In their favour, I went into the engine room on a couple and you could have eaten your lunch off the GM lump.

 

John

[grahame]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But clearly derived from its elder brethren, 

 

Yep, rather like most steam engines.

[New Haven Neil]

Hmm, have avoided writing this up until now as I can't currently find my reference, but was it not the case that the Q7 pulled it's own train AND pushed that of the 28xx and the 28 in question that had run out of steam on those afore mentioned exchanges?  I'm sure I have it in a book somwhere!

 

Nevertheless I'm a big 9F fan.  There is a quote in Gerry Fienne's book 'I Tried to Run a Railway' about a 9F doing over 90 with him in the train as General Manager of the Eastern Region IIRC.