Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

12 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Tony,

 I wouldn't say that the B1 had more NER than GNR in their make up. The boiler, valve gear, cylinders, frames, and the coupled wheels can definitely be traced back to the GN. The tender, the cab and the straight running board are probably the most prominent features derived from the NER. The bogie, mayby NE, or was it based on the B17 with a touch of LMS ?

Hmm...............

 

Without splitting hairs - a 4-6-0 (a type never built by the GN), in fact, until the advent of the BR Standard Vs, a wheel arrangement never built at Doncaster. Definitely, an NER smokebox door on the originals as well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

10 minutes ago, Hitchin Junction said:

I was looking at the boiler handrail/s of the B1 and it suddenly struck me that they appear to be continuous from one side, past the smokebox to the other side. How (and why) did they manufacture and assemble that as one piece. Or is there a join somewhere I can't see.

 

Tim

Definitely in one piece, and why not, Tim?

 

It's the same way I make all my locos with a continuous handrail in a rising arc above the smokebox door. 

 

 

 

Some have two pillars on the smokebox front ring.

 

 

 

Some have just one.

 

How I make and fix these in place was explained in Right Tracks 1 and 2.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

Tony,

 

Do you remember the D.210 twin-art that I showed you in brass at Woking? Well it’s now finished and I’m pleased with the way it’s come out. It is a mix of Mousa sides and parts from 247, Comet and MJT. Here is a picture of the finished twin with my N7 which is quite old but recently weathered ( SE Finecast with Bachmann chassis).

 

 

More details are on my workbench thread starting here

Regards

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

30 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

Do you remember the D.210 twin-art that I showed you in brass at Woking? Well it’s now finished and I’m pleased with the way it’s come out. It is a mix of Mousa sides and parts from 247, Comet and MJT. Here is a picture of the finished twin with my N7 which is quite old but recently weathered ( SE Finecast with Bachmann chassis).

 

 

More details are on my workbench thread starting here

Regards

 

Andy

I do indeed, Andy,

 

Excellent work - thanks for showing us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

But why would I, or why would anyone ask me to.................... scratch-build an N2 in OO today?

 

 

 

And who'd contemplate scratch-building a B1 as well today as well? Modified/detailed/renumbered/weathered Hornby B1 alongside.

 

I couldn't speak for you ... or indeed anyone else....

 

But I fully intend to scratch build a loco in the not too distant future, and I care not one jot whether it is available either in RTR or in a good quality kit. On the one hand I want to try my hand and see if I can do it .... and on the other, if successful I am pretty certain that the self satisfaction will likely be beyond anything I've experienced to date. 

 

I already know that from a simple pleasure standpoint I prefer scratch building my wagons to constructing a kit .... though I admit I use a whole gamut of etched/cast/turned bits and pieces so there is nothing hair shirt about all of this.

 

Furthermore I want to have a go at designing my own etches and seeing what I can build from them - the excuse being the need for a tender currently not available for my Johnson 0-6-0 goods locos running circa 1902 on the peak line.

 

The downside of course is that I may not complete my layout in this lifetime .... but if this proves to be the case I will certainly have thoroughly enjoyed not getting there. 

[Tony Wright]

More and more at shows now, when I'm demonstrating modelling techniques, I 'build' a plastic wagon kit. 

 

 

I started this Parkside LNER horsebox at Spalding on Saturday morning, completing it this morning. Though I've weathered the chassis, the bodywork still needs a touch of toning down. 

 

Soldering complex metal kits together can seem a bit daunting, but the plastic wagon kit is a splendid introduction to the delights of personal model-making. I'd be astonished if even the least-experienced modellers could not build/paint/complete something as simple-to-put-together as this. 

 

Horseboxes would have been very common sights on the ECML in the period LB represents, what with so many famous racecourses on it or near to it. 

 

They'd often be at the front of passenger trains................

 

 

As with this Bachmann Mk.1 example; just the couplings changed, and weathered by me.

 

 

There are two other horseboxes on LB, both Hornby ones (ex-LMS and ex-GWR respectively). After my changing the couplings, Richard Wilson weathered these. 

 

The current RTR horsebox examples are beautiful models, and superior to a kit-built equivalent. But, as has been said many times, that's not really the point. 

 

 

[rowanj]

Re the recent posts on scratchbuilding, I am firmly of the view that how one enjoys this wonderful hobby, and spends one's disposable income on it,  is entirely their own business. I do wonder, though, why, in general terms, one would scratchbuild  an N2, or indeed any other loco where a satisfactory RTR or kit exists when there are usually suitable prototypes which are missing from that canon. Surely the pleasure in construction is equally great, if no more so, if the result is something unique?

Just my opinion..others will differ.

 

[Headstock]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

More and more at shows now, when I'm demonstrating modelling techniques, I 'build' a plastic wagon kit. 

 

 

I started this Parkside LNER horsebox at Spalding on Saturday morning, completing it this morning. Though I've weathered the chassis, the bodywork still needs a touch of toning down. 

 

Soldering complex metal kits together can seem a bit daunting, but the plastic wagon kit is a splendid introduction to the delights of personal model-making. I'd be astonished if even the least-experienced modellers could not build/paint/complete something as simple-to-put-together as this. 

 

Horseboxes would have been very common sights on the ECML in the period LB represents, what with so many famous racecourses on it or near to it. 

 

They'd often be at the front of passenger trains................

 

 

As with this Bachmann Mk.1 example; just the couplings changed, and weathered by me.

 

 

There are two other horseboxes on LB, both Hornby ones (ex-LMS and ex-GWR respectively). After my changing the couplings, Richard Wilson weathered these. 

 

The current RTR horsebox examples are beautiful models, and superior to a kit-built equivalent. But, as has been said many times, that's not really the point. 

 

 

 

Evening Tony,

 

In defence of the Parkside (ex Parkside?) GWR Horsebox kit. I painted a train of Hornby and Parkside GWR Horseboxes a year or two ago. The two boxes are similar but slightly different diagrams. The level of detail on the Parkside horsebox was much finer than that on the Hornby ones. The grab handles, for example, are well overscale on the latter. I think that Hornby have also got the vac cylinder and also the gas cylinder (?) wrong way about.

 

The Hornby horsebox also comes with the original design of springs, these were updated with much more substantial springs for higher speed running. Horseboxes with original springs, as on the Hornby model, could not be XP rated. Of course this hasn't stopped Hornby selling them as such. I think that it is great that Hornby decided to produce a different diagram from the Parkside kit, variety is part of the charm of railway modelling.

 

On your comments as regards the lack of 4-6-0's  on the GNR indicating the NER heritage of the Thompson B1. If you were to except your own argument, you can never claim again that the B1 was Thompson's best locomotive because it mostly used Gresley parts.

[t-b-g]

8 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Inflation rates and credit card interest rates are, of course, very different. One is commercially set and the other is the result of economic conditions and government behaviour/policy. It is probably easier to avoid CC interest by not borrowing money that way, although with high inflation you might not be able to afford necessary goods so are forced to borrow. 

 

Mortgage rates are also commercially set (allegedly based on BofE rates) which I recall the highest I ever paid being 15%. The comparative current very low mortgage rates helps make the very high house prices a little more affordable. Beer was 25p a pint in 1975, now it's touching £5, more than twice the compounded inflation rate figure for that period. But I guess it's all relative and not a great deal to do with model trains.

 

 

When I went to work for a Building Society in the late 1970s, the base interest rate peaked at, I recall, 15.5%. However, there were various increments on top of that, so it was an extra 0.5% for an endowment mortgage, extra for a remortgage and extra for larger loans. I can recall the top rate I ever saw as being 19.5% by the time all the extras were added.

 

There were also long waiting lists for a mortgage and some people had to wait six months or more before they could apply because we only had a certain amount that we were allowed to lend each month. Mind you, a decent house at £25,000 with a loan based on 3 times annual income and it was all very affordable.

 

How times have changed. 

[gr.king]

8 hours ago, grahame said:

 

 Beer was 25p a pint in 1975, now it's touching £5, more than twice the compounded inflation rate figure for that period.

 

 

I can still find pubs locally selling good beer for about £3 per pint, in some cases less. It pays to live in a part of the country that isn't over-populated, as the lack of customers keeps the "take it or leave it" grasping profiteers behind certain business under at least a degree of control - even if local wage levels seem less impressive than they are in the metropolitan bubbles....... 

[grahame]

9 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

I can still find pubs locally selling good beer for about £3 per pint, in some cases less. It pays to live in a part of the country that isn't over-populated, as the lack of customers keeps the "take it or leave it" grasping profiteers behind certain business under at least a degree of control - even if local wage levels seem less impressive than they are in the metropolitan bubbles....... 

 

It is possible to find pubs selling cheap/discounted beers but many are not the sort of places to enjoy a few beers in for an evening. Much of the price increases in the pub trade are down to hugely inflated costs, above inflation rates, such as commercial rents and beer duty and taxes. 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

When we were looking for a house in the early 80s, one estate agent advised us on what we could "normally"  borrow (which I already knew), but went on to say we could borrow more at an increased interest rate. As the normal maximum amount then was then three times your annual income, presumably based upon your ability to repay, I found that rather counter intuitive. 

[Clearwater]

Just now, Jol Wilkinson said:

When we were looking for a house in the early 80s, one estate agent advised us on what we could "normally"  borrow (which I already knew), but went on to say we could borrow more at an increased interest rate. As the normal maximum amount then was then three times your annual income, presumably based upon your ability to repay, I found that rather counter intuitive. 

 

Hi Jol

 

the riskier a loan is, the higher the rate of interest it should carry.  Therefore, if the loan was at a higher multiple than usually allowed, the increment would be riskier and hence at a higher rate.  Hence personal unsecured loans are usually more expensive than secured loans such as mortgages.  Such differential interest rates are common in the corporate world.

 

David

[Hitchin Junction]

1 hour ago, rowanj said:

Re the recent posts on scratchbuilding, I am firmly of the view that how one enjoys this wonderful hobby, and spends one's disposable income on it,  is entirely their own business. I do wonder, though, why, in general terms, one would scratchbuild  an N2, or indeed any other loco where a satisfactory RTR or kit exists when there are usually suitable prototypes which are missing from that canon. Surely the pleasure in construction is equally great, if no more so, if the result is something unique?

Just my opinion..others will differ.

 

 

1) Because you can usually repair or rebuild a brass loco if only moderately damaged;

2) There are no ridiculously delicate plastic super details that fall off (for ever) if you pick it up with the wrong fingers;

3) There is a good chance you can bequeath it to a grandchild as:

a) still in one piece,

b) with bearings and gears that are not plastic and worn out.

c) as something far more likely to be (somewhat) unique and worth remembering you for

 

Tim (contemplating mortality)

[t-b-g]

The lower the % loan to value, the lower the risk of a lender not getting its money back in the event of a default and having to take possession of the house.

 

Back in "the day" income multipliers were not usually very flexible. We worked on 3 times the biggest plus 1 times the smallest or 2.5 times joint income, whichever worked out best. So a differential rate for a bigger loan is likely to be because i crossed a certain % of the purchase price rather than lending on a higher income multiple. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,

 

In defence of the Parkside (ex Parkside?) GWR Horsebox kit. I painted a train of Hornby and Parkside GWR Horseboxes a year or two ago. The two boxes are similar but slightly different diagrams. The level of detail on the Parkside horsebox was much finer than that on the Hornby ones. The grab handles, for example, are well overscale on the latter. I think that Hornby have also got the vac cylinder and also the gas cylinder (?) wrong way about.

 

The Hornby horsebox also comes with the original design of springs, these were updated with much more substantial springs for higher speed running. Horseboxes with original springs, as on the Hornby model, could not be XP rated. Of course this hasn't stopped Hornby selling them as such. I think that it is great that Hornby decided to produce a different diagram from the Parkside kit, variety is part of the charm of railway modelling.

 

On your comments as regards the lack of 4-6-0's  on the GNR indicating the NER heritage of the Thompson B1. If you were to except your own argument, you can never claim again that the B1 was Thompson's best locomotive because it mostly used Gresley parts.

'If you were to except your own argument, you can never claim again that the B1 was Thompson's best locomotive because it mostly used Gresley parts.'

 

Good evening Andrew,

 

Though I've never doubted (and thus accepted) the fact that the B1 was Thompson's best locomotive, have I ever qualified the fact that it was because it used Gresley's parts in the main? It did, though.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Returning to the theme of scratch-building..................

 

I'll reiterate what I said earlier, if I may (with additions)?

 

When I set out with my long-term plan (something I'm not usually very good at), over 40 years ago, of making examples of all the locomotive types I saw as a trainspotter on the ECML, scratch-building and kit-building (and heavily-modifying RTR items) was the only way. I even used detailed Hornby-Dublo A4 bodies on scratch-built chassis, towing Wills corridor tenders! K's, Wills and Jamieson kits were built a-plenty, and, as mentioned, anything representing a Thompson Pacific (apart from my Jamieson hand-cut A2/1) had to be scratch-built - all out of necessity. Of course, I derived pleasure from the builds - a great deal, to be fair, especially where my work was on display at exhibitions and folk commented favourably. Or, when it appeared in print. 

 

Of course (out of necessity) scratch-building the likes of an N2 is no longer a priority. However, building a proper chassis to go underneath the old Airfix body was. 

 

I now have two L1s, both built from ECJM kits (one rebuilt, as recently shown). There's a perfectly good RTR equivalent now in the Hornby L1, but the two of those I had I've given away. Why? Because they never could be 'mine' in the same way. In the same way that exclusive users of RTR will never get the 'satisfaction' of being able to say 'I made that', even if the results might be inferior to RTR equivalents. 

 

That last statement made, that's probably why many just rely on RTR stuff, because they know that anything they try to make will be poor in comparison. A good excuse not to try? Especially as many kit-built equivalents (even those ostensibly built by 'professionals') run so poorly in comparison. 

 

I'll always build my own locos - I always have (except as a boy) and always will. Even as a boy, I 'motorised' the then-new Kitmaster locos by shoving them on top of various RTR chassis - bleeding a lot in the process!

Edited November 6, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Northmoor]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Sorry, I was intending to compare the front frames of the old Airfix N2, which have the defects I mentioned, with the rather better front frames of the Hornby B1.

Still pretty incredible though for a mass-produced plastic model from 1983, in my humble opinion.

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

There's a perfectly good RTR equivalent now in the Hornby L1..... 

 

That last statement made, that's probably why many just rely on RTR stuff, because the know that anything they try to make will be poor in comparison. 

 

That sums up a lot of pages of discussion in this thread, Tony.

 

The Hornby L1 is a bit of a curate’s egg, however.  The pony truck has an awful double-pivot arrangement that makes it take curves at a very unnatural looking angle.  The P2 has this arrangement as well, though with a longer pivot it was less noticeable.  And the L1’s motor mount is quite a delicate arrangement, I also have two Hornby L1’s and both have had to have a bit of fettling to stop the worm jumping out of gear, from new.

 

Whilst I agree that on the whole, current RTR models are now of a very high standard (and far better than I could ever build) the engineering within often still leaves much to be desired.  At least with a self-build, you accept that fettling and tweaking are all part of the process.  Those relying purely on RTR out-of-the-box stuff just don’t expect that requirement to be part of the purchase deal, on the whole.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Chamby
Accidentally posted too soon

[gr.king]

3 hours ago, grahame said:

 

It is possible to find pubs selling cheap/discounted beers but many are not the sort of places to enjoy a few beers in for an evening. Much of the price increases in the pub trade are down to hugely inflated costs, above inflation rates, such as commercial rents and beer duty and taxes. 

 

 

I'm lucky enough to be able to find very nice pubs with good real ale around £3. Regarding hugely inflated costs, one need generally look no further than a major commercial property owner / landlord to find exactly the kind of greedy grasping profiteer that I had in mind, and they try to extract ridiculous rents in more thinly populated, lower income areas just as they do in the big cities. That, quite apart from web commerce, is a major reason why provincial high streets are now full of empty shops....

 

Anyway, we're well off-topic now.......

[landscapes]

8 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

I'm lucky enough to be able to find very nice pubs with good real ale around £3. Regarding hugely inflated costs, one need generally look no further than a major commercial property owner / landlord to find exactly the kind of greedy grasping profiteer that I had in mind, and they try to extract ridiculous rents in more thinly populated, lower income areas just as they do in the big cities. That, quite apart from web commerce, is a major reason why provincial high streets are now full of empty shops....

 

Anyway, we're well off-topic now.......

Hi Graeme 

you should come out to Spain, not many options for real ale but a pint of larger varies from 1 to 2.5 euros or a very nice three course meal including a half a pint of larger or a glass of wine 10 euros, bargain. 

 

only coming back home to the UK for railway modelling and kids, certainly not for the weather or cost of living.

 

Regards

 

David

Edited November 6, 2019 by landscapes
Additional info

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

That sums up a lot of pages of discussion in this thread, Tony.

 

The Hornby L1 is a bit of a curate’s egg, however.  The pony truck has an awful double-pivot arrangement that makes it take curves at a very unnatural looking angle.  The P2 has this arrangement as well, though with a longer pivot it was less noticeable.  And the L1’s motor mount is quite a delicate arrangement, I also have two Hornby L1’s and both have had to have a bit of fettling to stop the worm jumping out of gear, from new.

 

Whilst I agree that on the whole, current RTR models are now of a very high standard (and far better than I could ever build) the engineering within often still leaves much to be desired.  At least with a self-build, you accept that fettling and tweaking are all part of the process.  Those relying purely on RTR out-of-the-box stuff just don’t expect that requirement to be part of the purchase deal, on the whole.

'The Hornby L1 is a bit of a curate’s egg, however.  The pony truck has an awful double-pivot arrangement that makes it take curves at a very unnatural looking angle.  The P2 has this arrangement as well, though with a longer pivot it was less noticeable.  And the L1’s motor mount is quite a delicate arrangement, I also have two Hornby L1’s and both have had to have a bit of fettling to stop the worm jumping out of gear, from new.'

 

It's interesting you state the above, Phil, because a question I'm frequently asked in my role as loco doctor is 'Is there anything you can do to stop the pony truck on my L1 and my P2 derailing on pointwork and curves?'

 

My answer is, 'I don't know'. I've run two Hornby L1s on LB (not for long, to be fair), and neither derailed anywhere, going forwards (or backwards). Neither did the Hornby P2 I had on test. I can only assume the tendency to derail is on tighter radii - LB's minimum is 3'. 

 

I've not come across the 'jumping out of gear' on the L1s, though it has occurred on other (newer) Hornby locos handed to me for inspection. In a couple of cases, the gears had split. On others, the mazak has crumbled. It's not of the 'epidemic' proportions regarding the falling apart of the abominable split chassis creations of recent years - Palitoy/Mainline/Replica/Bachmann - whichever brand name was in use at the time! 

 

Though these situations don't personally affect me (however, I'm concerned with them as a loco-doctor), it does make me wonder how much the RTR market has 'progressed', particularly in terms of mechanical robustness. Ancient Tri-ang locos are frequently brought to me as 'non-runners'. A quick clean, adjustment of pick-ups, replacement brushes (occasionally a replacement motor) and an oil, and away they go for another 60+ years of running! I wonder if a successor of mine, in 50-60 years' time will be able to do those things with the RTR locos of today?

 

When it appeared nine years ago, the Hornby L1 was met with a large amount of praise.....................

 

 

The only criticism I made was about the size of the bunker-side numerals - too small.

 

 

 

The LNER/BR green liveries were beautifully-applied. 

 

 

The next BR black manifestation had numbers of the correct size. 

 

I wasted no time in detailing, renumbering and weathering a pair of the BR black ones.....................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Details included adding crews. Even in tank locos, with enclosed cabs, I'll fit these essential items. 

 

As mentioned already, both these examples have now been given away.

 

 

When I rebuilt/repainted/weathered the old ECJM/ABS L1 a fortnight ago, I questioned the possibility of a Lowestoft-allocated L1 being seen at Little Bytham. Well, here's another one at Grantham! 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[Lecorbusier]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Though these situations don't personally affect me (however, I'm concerned with them as a loco-doctor), it does make me wonder how much the RTR market has 'progressed', particularly in terms of mechanical robustness. Ancient Tri-ang locos are frequently brought to me as 'non-runners'. A quick clean, adjustment of pick-ups, replacement brushes (occasionally a replacement motor) and an oil, and away they go for another 60+ years of running! I wonder if a successor of mine, in 50-60 years' time will be able to do those things with the RTR locos of today?

 

That could be the epitaph for today's world .... high on appearance but with a heavy dose of inbuilt obsolescence.

 

I was watching a documentary on the singer sowing machine ... and the early 20th century treadle and hand crank models are still being refurbished and shipped out for regular use in Africa and other developing countries. I know a fair few people in the UK who still swear by them.

 

Progress eh!

[jwealleans]

I acquired a Hornby L1 when they started to be sold at bargain prices.  This is it after I'd detailed it alongside the club ABS kit built version:

 

 

The front pony was something of an issue; mine didn't derail, but it didn't centre itself out of curves, resulting in a very odd looking crabbing motion along the track.  A piece of wire acting as a spring resolved it, but I do recall that others needed much more work before theirs behaved.

 

Here it is on Little Bytham a few years ago:

 

[Barry Ten]

I agree entirely about the robustness of modern RTR. Two of my three Hornby rebuilt West Countries have suffered split gears, and Hornby won't even look at these because they're considered "older models" - which is, frankly, codswallop, given that they've not long been in the main range under various identities and are only ten years old at best. And, they're a swine to take apart even if you can magically obtain the replacement gears - which again, Hornby won't supply. I gave up when I found that on one of them, even the main driving axle gear was split, and getting that off (and back on) with the wheels quartered would be a far harder job than with the equivalent kit chassis. Thankfully, a kind Rmwebber has agreed to look at them for me -  but i's nul points Hornby as far as I'm concerned.

 

Most of my older Triang/Triang-Hornby/Hornby stuff has been much more robust, but I've had one odd one with an Evening Star from about 1979. The wheels themselves have suffered some sort of Mazak rot/expansion, something I've not seen elsewhere, nor heard about.

 

Al