cctransuk Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DougN said: Be careful with that as they are all forked joints which will look brilliant but will be a big challenge. Check out MRJ 66 and 67 for a A3 build and the photos of the valve gear. I am working through a Finney V2 (see photo on page 1570) I have yet to get to the valve gear as I am working slowly through the chassis. Since the photo the leading truck has been put together.... there seems to be a lot of parts compared to a comet kit but it does look brilliant. The first thing that got me was there is a bar across the front at the bottom of the truck which is lying flat. I had not even noticed it until comparing photos. I am also doing a early version of the truck! .... which all goes to support my view that Brassmasters kits are chronically over-engineered. By a factor of at least ten, my Brassmasters Black 5 is the undisputed holder of the long-term, part-built loco trophy ! If you didn't know, and could not see that the component existed until Brassmasters expect you to install it, it is surplus to all reasonable requirements, IMHO. I've a feeling that my Black 5 will, sooner or later, be completed with a Comet chassis. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited November 7, 2019 by cctransuk 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, 31A said: When the Hornby L1 came out, I asked a friend what he thought of it. He is a retired loco driver who had worked on L1s, and also a pretty decent modeller, who had built one from an ABS kit. He said it looked OK but what were the big lumps on the roof? Which made me think about the ventilators and on a couple of mine I have replaced the chunky moulded sliding ones with rectangles of thin metal sheet; aluminium I believe cut from drinks cans. Here is 67773 which has had the cab roof ventilators replaced; it was second hand and had the front and rear headlights missing on the fireman's side (which I have replaced) and the windshield glasses missing on the driver's side (which I haven't replaced). I must admit I hadn't noticed anything wrong with the chimney, either! I agree the valve gear is much better on these, although the radius rod still passes a long way behind the eccentric link rather than looking as though it passes through it. Sorry about the front coupling but it has to pull trains backwards as well as forwards! Good evening, I must admit that in that shot, the chimney looks better than the thing on the B1 , do you have a nice big side view? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, DougN said: I am working through a Finney V2 (see photo on page 1570) I have yet to get to the valve gear as I am working slowly through the chassis. Since the photo the leading truck has been put together.... there seems to be a lot of parts compared to a comet kit but it does look brilliant. The first thing that got me was there is a bar across the front at the bottom of the truck which is lying flat. I had not even noticed it until comparing photos. I am also doing a early version of the truck! Page 1569 --- Looking forward to further posts on this 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Headstock said: Good evening, I must admit that in that shot, the chimney looks better than the thing on the B1 , do you have a nice big side view? Not exactly a side view I'm afraid, but here's a couple more of 67773 which might help. Firstly, while it was still 67772 and also showing the replacement lamp iron I made for it, and secondly as finished with the chimney nicely silhouetted against a Saxa Salt advert: 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, 31A said: Not exactly a side view I'm afraid, but here's a couple more of 67773 which might help. Firstly, while it was still 67772 and also showing the replacement lamp iron I made for it, and secondly as finished with the chimney nicely silhouetted against a Saxa Salt advert: Thanks, it certainly looks better than the one on Micks greenies, no doubt the vagaries of photography being the reason, rather than different chimney profiles. I like your ventilators, anything that gives a locomotive a finer appearance, were it is required, is a good thing in my book. Have you looked at the great open space between pony truck wheel and running board valance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, 31A said: Thank you, Tony, for the comments and the pictures of your A3s. I'll stick my neck out and admit I think A3s are the best looking British steam locos! Yes, the A3s are both Hornby, not very much modified - in fact 60077 is just weathered. I did this in 2007 and at the time I don't think I was aware that the green parts of the cab roof and tender top were incorrect; I ought to go back and correct them. 60070 has been modified (in 2008) to the extent that a whitemetal (origins unknown) double chimney has been fitted - I wasn't able to get this to 'sit down' on top of the smokebox as well as I'd've liked. Re. the bogie wheels, perhaps I have a blind spot for these but to be honest I can't see that much difference between the Hornby ones and Gibson. Here's 60039 "Sandwich", which as you can see started out as "Windsor Lad" (I didn't line up the figure 9 very well did I!). This one has got Gibson bogie wheels fitted, mainly as a result of your exhortations! Also front frames, steps and reversing rod from the Brassmasters detailing kit. The brass chimney is an old Crownline item, fitted mainly to help use up some bits from my bulging 'bits box', and the smokebox handles are a very nice item from GW Models (it's not the 'dart' - that's invisible inside the smokebox as long as the door is shut) - I don't know whether these are still available. I've also cut away the front of the bogie to help it look a bit less cumbersome. Weathering is intended to portray a reasonably clean 'working' loco. Have you any suggestions for improving the appearance of the Hornby A3's expansion link? As well as being too long, it looks disappointingly two dimensional, i.e. only the front is modelled with the radius rod passing behind it rather than through it, which gives it a rather disappointing appearance compared with for example, the Bachmann A1. It occurs to me that the Hornby A3 valve gear on your example could be simply improved by moving the motion bracket up to were it should be under the running board. There seems to be a kind of 'flap, extra material, on the top of the motion bracket that needs removing or bending out of the way. If the motion bracket was repositioned, the radius rod would be much straighter, as it should be if positioned in mid gear as represented by the model. Edited November 7, 2019 by Headstock add, 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Headstock said: Have you looked at the great open space between pony truck wheel and running board valance? Yes. I looked at it when I was playing around with 67772/3, but didn't decide what to do about it! A couple of bits of black Plastikard where the front of the frames should be would probably do the trick. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Headstock said: It occurs to me that the Hornby A3 valve gear on your example could be simply improved by moving the motion bracket up to were it should be under the running board. There seems to be a kind of 'flap, extra material, on the top of the motion bracket that needs removing or bending out of the way. If the motion bracket was repositioned, the radius rod would then the straight, as it should be if positioned in mid gear as represented by the model. There is a bit extra at the top, yes. It's less obvious when painted black, but still there. I was a bit disappointed that the Brassmasters A3 detailing kit didn't really provide any parts with which to address the shortcomings of the valve gear; what you suggest might be worth a try. I've got a failed A3 (gear slipping on driven axle - suspect Tony is right re. longevity of RTR vs kit built locos!) to tackle soon so I might give that a try at the same time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post ArthurK Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted November 7, 2019 This is my take an the A3 valve gear it started life as a Proscale kit but. apart from the connecting rods and the coupling rods the remainder was filed from steel. The expansion is in three layers as in the prototype. the centre layer passes through the radius rod. I think that it was worth the effort. It is in forward gear. ArhurK 15 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2019 That looks beautiful! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Sadly, the proportions of the valve gear on Trigo, although better than the Hornby version, are still quite different to what Sir Nigel designed. The expansion link is too far forward and the pivot is too low down or the link too long from top to bottom. It means that the valve rod is inclined too steeply. If you want to see what it should look like, try this. http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/lner_kits.htm There is a delicacy and finesse about Gresley valve gear that really jumps out when it is right. That is also modelled in forward gear and you can see the difference. Edited November 7, 2019 by t-b-g 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, t-b-g said: So it is a bit of a trap to look at colour photos from 1963 and weather your locos for your 1955 layout based on how they looked. Whilst I think this is true of passenger locomotives, certainly in my chosen location, photos of the early to mid 1950s show the goods locomotives (well a good proportion of them, anyway) to be pretty dirty. - Soot, ash and limescale all feature, though not so much for rust compared to later years. It must be nice to model pre-grouping locomotives where the amount of weathering is very limited and subtle. I always have a little pang of regret when weathering a newly built locomotive, especially if I've made a half decent job of the painting. Edited November 8, 2019 by Clem spelling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, t-b-g said: Sadly, the proportions of the valve gear on Trigo, although better than the Hornby version, are still quite different to what Sir Nigel designed. The expansion link is too far forward and the pivot is too low down or the link too long from top to bottom. It means that the valve rod is inclined too steeply. If you want to see what it should look like, try this. http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/lner_kits.htm There is a delicacy and finesse about Gresley valve gear that really jumps out when it is right. That is also modelled in forward gear and you can see the difference. Considering much of that valve gear is hewn from the raw metal, Tony, I think it’s very good. However I agree that the proportions are challenging (they were on the P2). I think the increased angle on the radius rod might be due to it sitting too high at the front end , i.e. the combination lever is a tad too tall / long. Everything gets very claustrophobic behind the valve guides on Gresley valve gear. So much better to see than flimsy etches tho’. Tim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Has anyone modeled valve-gear at 1:76.2 scale correctly? A servo could adjust the reverser position to replicate forward/reverse and cutoff. Technically it's possible with DCC. Personally I won't be bothering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 9 hours ago, 31A said: When the Hornby L1 came out, I asked a friend what he thought of it. He is a retired loco driver who had worked on L1s, and also a pretty decent modeller, who had built one from an ABS kit. He said it looked OK but what were the big lumps on the roof? Which made me think about the ventilators and on a couple of mine I have replaced the chunky moulded sliding ones with rectangles of thin metal sheet; aluminium I believe cut from drinks cans. Here is 67773 which has had the cab roof ventilators replaced; it was second hand and had the front and rear headlights missing on the fireman's side (which I have replaced) and the windshield glasses missing on the driver's side (which I haven't replaced). I must admit I hadn't noticed anything wrong with the chimney, either! I agree the valve gear is much better on these, although the radius rod still passes a long way behind the eccentric link rather than looking as though it passes through it. Sorry about the front coupling but it has to pull trains backwards as well as forwards! That looks very convincing, Steve, However, I'd still be tempted to put the correct-sized numerals on the bunker. Those shown are too small. It's still far more detailed than my ECJM's examples, but, as I mention all the time, they're far more 'mine' than any RTR loco, especially the one I built completely (the other I rebuilt). In many ways the 'ultimate' 4mm L1 would have been the one Mike Russell (DMR) was working on. He'd just put together the first test etches for the kit (which looked brilliant) when Hornby announced their RTR version, nearly a decade ago. It killed it immediately! Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post Michael Edge Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2019 This is the Hornby A3 converted to EM gauge with new etched frames added outside the original mazak block (keeping the original drive mechanism). The motion is all etched, including properly proportioned slidbars as mentioned by tbg above. With the additional bearings in the new outer frames these Hornby locos run very well. 19 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: That looks very convincing, Steve, However, I'd still be tempted to put the correct-sized numerals on the bunker. Those shown are too small. Thank you Tony. Do you really think the numbers are too small? That hadn't occurred to me. I renumbered it by just altering the last digit - the numbers on the HMRS sheet match the printed Hornby ones, albeit very slightly paler (disguised by weathering). https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lner/l-2-6-4/l1/hA891970A#h810f5e6c 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 53 minutes ago, Michael Edge said: This is the Hornby A3 converted to EM gauge with new etched frames added outside the original mazak block (keeping the original drive mechanism). The motion is all etched, including properly proportioned slidbars as mentioned by tbg above. With the additional bearings in the new outer frames these Hornby locos run very well. That does look a great deal better! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 hours ago, Clem said: Whilst I think this is true of passenger locomotives, certainly in my chosen location, photos of the early to mid 1950s show the goods locomotives (well a good proportion of them, anyway) to be pretty dirty. - Soot, ash and limescale all feature, though not so much for rust compared to later years. It must be nice to model pre-grouping locomotives where the amount of weathering is very limited and subtle. I always have a little pang of regret when weathering a newly built locomotive, especially if I've made a half decent job of the painting. I see what you mean, but I have thought that subtle weathering can be harder to get right. in some ways I reckon it's easier if the effects (rust, dirt etc) are obvious, in my case it was with the last years of the Cavan and Leitrim rather than BR. On the other hand I'd suspect that effects enough to tone down toy-like brightness to look used without over-doing it might be harder (though I've not done such a prototype myuself yet.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Tony Wright said: In many ways the 'ultimate' 4mm L1 would have been the one Mike Russell (DMR) was working on. He'd just put together the first test etches for the kit (which looked brilliant) when Hornby announced their RTR version, nearly a decade ago. It killed it immediately! Regards, Tony. Unless anyone knows otherwise this may be the only DMR L1 tank model, made by Ian Forsyth, seen here running on Borchester Market. The photo does not do the model justice, I extracted it from a word document. Regards Charlie 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 54 minutes ago, johnarcher said: I see what you mean, but I have thought that subtle weathering can be harder to get right. in some ways I reckon it's easier if the effects (rust, dirt etc) are obvious, in my case it was with the last years of the Cavan and Leitrim rather than BR. On the other hand I'd suspect that effects enough to tone down toy-like brightness to look used without over-doing it might be harder (though I've not done such a prototype myuself yet.) In 2mm scale I think doing the extremes convincingly is tricky. Less is generally more. That's fine when you are just trying to give a light to intermediate weathering; distinctions between the more matt hot smokebox and the sheen on the boiler cladding, and the mucky running plate and sooty boiler top are relatively (!) easily achieved. However an ex-works loco with just a bit of evidence of priming on the smokebox would be a nightmare - fine streaks of off-white will almost inevitably look overdone. Likewise heavy weathering needs variation. Less is more still needs to apply, but that means that those filthy A3s Tony posted photos of would need a lot of work to build up the variation of colour and sheen (or lack of it). All too easy to get a flat uniform grey or brown grey that makes your model less lifelike or to go mad with bright orange rust. That's one of the reasons I've yet to tackle a Trafford Park Jubilee in 1950 condition. To back up Clem's comments above, they were often as filthy as any loco 10 or more years later due to the shortage of cleaners (I've half a dozen photos of one and still no idea whether it's plain black or tatty red!), but they were steamtight and mechanically sound. When I get around to it my weathering will need to reflect that. Simon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 hours ago, CF MRC said: Considering much of that valve gear is hewn from the raw metal, Tony, I think it’s very good. However I agree that the proportions are challenging (they were on the P2). I think the increased angle on the radius rod might be due to it sitting too high at the front end , i.e. the combination lever is a tad too tall / long. Everything gets very claustrophobic behind the valve guides on Gresley valve gear. So much better to see than flimsy etches tho’. Tim Very much better than many a valve gear. It just seems a bit of a shame that if you decide to make your own parts, rather than use commercial items and all the information is available as drawings and a real one exist, that you still don't quite capture "the look". I haven't made outside valve gear often (the GCR didn't have much!) but when I have, constant reference to photos and drawings and being willing to replace or modify etched parts was worthwhile. The Mike Edge variety does, on the other hand, capture "the look". I wonder if a set of etched parts might be available to purchase for those who want to improve their LNER pacifics. Two people who knew how to make good looking valve gear were Roy Jackson and Malcolm Crawley. This photo of Roy's last pacific build appeared earlier in the thread but is a very good example of how to model valve gear with correct proportions and sizes. 6 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Woodcock29 Posted November 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) On the subject of Hornby A1/A3 valve gear I have studied one of mine closely tonight having been aware for a long time of the shortcomings. I have decided to modify one and see how that comes out. I have also compared a Hornby set with a Comet set for an A3. interestingly the expansion link on the Hornby valve gear is only 1.2mm longer than the Comet version, I thought it might have been more. I will shorten mine and also intend to reduce the height of the motion bracket which is also a problem - and this is on one of the earlier Flying Fox models not the later version with the thicker top piece. I have previously modified a Hornby B17 which suffers from similar faults. I hope to report back in a few days. In the meantime here are a couple of photos showing my attempts at learning how to line with a bow pen and Bob Moore lining pen. The boiler bands have been done using HMRS Pressfix lining. The D2 still needs to be toned down somewhat. Its abit of a pity about the Kadees but both of these will operate on an exhibition layout where Kadees are in use. The driver in the D2 is rather high up due to the footplate being somewhat high but will be replaced with a sitting figure when I get around to painting one. The C12 is a Craftsman kit but with LRM smokebox door, safety valves and chimney. Also the dome and chimney have been replaced but I can't remember whose those are, possibly the chimney is Gibson. The D2 is the old Nucast kit but with a Graeme King J6 smokebox door and LRM chimney, safety valves and whistle. The lining on both is not great but hopefully is partly hidden by weathering on the C12. The camera can be quite cruel! Andrew Edited November 8, 2019 by Woodcock29 added extra comment 18 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitchin Junction Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I find the valve gear errors, if any, are eclipsed by the thickness of the steam loco model wheels and deep flanges. They just shout "model" rather than "real" to me. I know it's been very difficult to scale down wheels in the past, but with today's manufacturing technology, it should be pretty straightforward now. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, Hitchin Junction said: I find the valve gear errors, if any, are eclipsed by the thickness of the steam loco model wheels and deep flanges. They just shout "model" rather than "real" to me. I know it's been very difficult to scale down wheels in the past, but with today's manufacturing technology, it should be pretty straightforward now. Tim We all have things in the hobby that we regard as acceptable and some that we would rather do something about. I agree with you about wheels but unless you go to P4 or Scale7 type standards, you are going to have to live with some element of over thick wheels and deep flanges. They can be disguised with some judicious use of chemical blackening, which certainly helps. It is the shiny tread and flange, kept brightly polished under an otherwise weathered loco, that draws attention to it. I have been told that blackening doesn't cause a problem with electrical pick up but the only time I did the treads on a loco it ran like a pig afterwards so I ended up polishing most of it off. Enough was left to tone down the shiny appearance. Perhaps I did it wrong! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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