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36 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The following shot is one I rejected, and re-took, but only after I'd wasted all that time in taking out the background! Why didn't I notice the problem straight away?

 

1402085054_13317FlyingScotsman.jpg.58b78ca1130078f52cf834ad0c578b07.jpg

 

It's obviously on LB, but look at the daft angles of the lamps! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

The thing I spotted first was the signal growing out of the chimney! Many an otherwise decent prototype picture spoilt by that effect ...

 

I tend to agree with the observations of others on here re there being worse things than not fitting lamps (an omission), such as absurd train formations or both arms of a junction ('splitting') signal in the 'off' position (both errors). As you might expect, I am often drawn to signalling errors - a favourite (NOT!) of mine is where the builder has used LOWER quadrant arms (such as GWR) and affixed them in the UPPER position (or similar). Once again, it would not take too much review of prototype pictures to avoid such glaring errors.

 

Now - I must be away to my workbench to paint up my latest batch of ModelU lamps prior to Peterborough ...

Edited by LNER4479
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I don't what know what fraction of layouts are of the terminus to fiddleyard type, but going by those of friends and acquaintances, I know of far more of them than continuous run layouts. Not all of them are stations (some are industrial in nature) but none of them allow the engines to be turned before going out again, so IF there are headlamps, and if they're not physically changed, they will be wrong half the time. I don't know if I've ever seen lamps between changed during an operating session, and since my own preference is for totally hands-off operation if at all possible, I wouldn't want it done anyway.

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21 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

I don't what know what fraction of layouts are of the terminus to fiddleyard type, but going by those of friends and acquaintances, I know of far more of them than continuous run layouts. Not all of them are stations (some are industrial in nature) but none of them allow the engines to be turned before going out again, so IF there are headlamps, and if they're not physically changed, they will be wrong half the time. I don't know if I've ever seen lamps between changed during an operating session, and since my own preference is for totally hands-off operation if at all possible, I wouldn't want it done anyway.

I noted the lamps changed on the locos arriving/departing at Buckingham as appropriate when Jesse and I saw it (and operated it) last week. The 'hand of God', obviously, but very impressive nonetheless.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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20 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening David,

 

Just a few examples............................

 

15293337_4F43938.jpg.ed0982f616d9d63855525167935dcfa7.jpg

 

647102492_4Fscomplete27onlayout.jpg.97ff1d6a791d4003cb2abc475fce9d9c.jpg

 

2034749986_16XXSEFinecastbuiltbyTonyWright02.jpg.df7e768bd08d1c00b0fabe6e7d61012a.jpg

 

1937107521_600140nDownexpress.jpg.1a33c34d2f0dfdafa132802b26697752.jpg

 

690629475_ABSL1andNu-CastA5onlayout.jpg.411c175cc826c2471ed551c6d022832e.jpg

 

1644447050_HeljanO2modifications25.jpg.990d035e57b0dd3e37e8d36f317045d2.jpg

 

618369294_J696862604.jpg.2d7941a8fdd2e83cbe4b4b1ce6471129.jpg

 

870811210_K3modifications16.jpg.9e7f8c69e276c60f5c34c639d4fd2213.jpg

 

318979321_PlatformviewsK36182302.jpg.e944720a0fd1f10f80214c3240e83158.jpg

 

416230399_secondSEFJ6weathered03.jpg.591348976a0b0041a8088b698a8579c0.jpg

 

The 'plates need to be cut out very carefully, which leaves a white border (this was prototypical at times). I run a black 'Sharpie' around the exposed white edge, making sure that it doesn't 'bleed'. Beware of applying the 'plates before weathering - enamels will affect them. I apply them after weathering, and, if necessary, then give them the slightest wipe. 

 

They're thick enough not to need a backing plate (except on an A4 or the W1 - did either of the streamlined B17s have a BR front numberplate?), though if the model has one, just stick them on top with a tiny blob of PVA, applied on the end of a cocktail stick just drawn along the rear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony

 

Thank you for the information and for posting the above photographs, very impressive indeed.

 

I spoke to Ian at Pacific Models this afternoon, a very helpful man and my order form and cheque are on their way to him.

 

Thank you again for your help and looking forward to replacing all my LNER Pacific's smokebox number plates in due course as I did not realise that the sheet contains smokebox number plates for all of the A1/A2/A3 and A4 Classes.

 

Regards

 

David

 

 

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16 hours ago, robertcwp said:

So far as I am aware, 9065 was the number allocated to what had been 1225 but it was not renumbered. However, in the absence of primary sources, this cannot be confirmed

The owner of the Dennis Seabrook Collection has loaned it to the LNER Society for digitisation, which is more or less complete, and cataloguing, which isn't.  There are about 4,000 images in the collection, the majority of which are portraits of ex-LNER and constituent carriages in the 1950s.  There are eight photographs of E1225E taken over a number of years.

 

The corridor side appears unaltered; the kitchen side has been modified as indicated by Robert, such that, reading from right to left, there are 14 panels between the second seating bay window, and the first kitchen window.

 

Most of the photographs show the earlier BR livery, with gas tanks amidships on either side; one photograph in the later livery shows battery boxes there.

 

All photographs show Gresley bogies of course, but HD at the kitchen end only throughout.

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:
3 hours ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

Running a Local Passenger lamped up as a Light Engine was prototypical on some Branches of the GWR / BR(W) . Confirmed by my Desktop Picture of BR(W) 1453 leaving Aylesbury Town on a Princes Risborough Passenger Train.

Thanks for that, but was that the norm? 

 

Some BR(W) Branches used it regularly and not so on others; I don't know what determined when and where this operation was allowed.

 

Moretonhampstead Branch Trains used the Headcode for Auto Trains and ordinary Passenger Trains.

Edited by Pannier Tank
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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:The following shot is one I rejected, and re-took, but only after I'd wasted all that time in taking out the background! Why didn't I notice the problem straight away?

 

 

1402085054_13317FlyingScotsman.jpg.58b78ca1130078f52cf834ad0c578b07.jpg


Cold day Tony? That peg growing out of the chimney needs the wire letting off a bit.... that’s a very good off....

 

Andy g

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1 hour ago, uax6 said:


Cold day Tony? That peg growing out of the chimney needs the wire letting off a bit.... that’s a very good off....

 

Andy g

 

It's obviously pleased to see the Flying Scotsman, Andy! Despite the loco's wonky lamps.

 

1555108510_A22onDownFlyingScotsman.jpg.e69515d2495c3cbe6ef6befec1bf367f.jpg

 

Now with the lamps corrected (though one is still a bit awry), that peg is still well 'off'. 

 

The mechanism for it actually failed this year, and Graham Nicholas kindly replaced it. 

 

1754161016_LBreplacement01.jpg.11bd7af43f088067da7b6bb6c488fcfd.jpg

 

It's certainly at a more natural angle in the 'off' position now. 

 

This shot will appear in the next issue of the RM. It shows how much progress has been made on things like the point rodding.

 

Now, I have a question. The vans/wagons in the yard will soon be in the process of being shunted by the pick-up freight loco. If they were left for any length of time (say, overnight on the prototype), might the outer ones be fitted with lamps with red aspects? Just a thought. If so, then I've committed the most-heinous of crimes!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

It's obviously pleased to see the Flying Scotsman, Andy! Despite the loco's wonky lamps.

 

1555108510_A22onDownFlyingScotsman.jpg.e69515d2495c3cbe6ef6befec1bf367f.jpg

 

Now with the lamps corrected (though one is still a bit awry), that peg is still well 'off'. 

 

The mechanism for it actually failed this year, and Graham Nicholas kindly replaced it. 

 

1754161016_LBreplacement01.jpg.11bd7af43f088067da7b6bb6c488fcfd.jpg

 

 

 

Now, I have a question. The vans/wagons in the yard will soon be in the process of being shunted by the pick-up freight loco. If they were left for any length of time (say, overnight on the prototype), might the outer ones be fitted with lamps with red aspects? Just a thought. If so, then I've committed the most-heinous of crimes!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

With the wagons being in the yard and not on the running lines , I'm sure they don't need lamps Tony .

 

Regards , Roy.

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11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Many of the layouts featured of late show no observation of the real thing at all - in fact quite the opposite - yet they went on to become 'winners'. One could argue that the aims and objectives were totally different from what us 'modellers' might aspire to, but if 'inaccuracies' become more and more the norm, then how is the next generation of modellers (without which, the hobby has no future!) going to understand and achieve 'realism'? 

 

To be honest Tony I'm not sure things are getting worse.  Looking back to the RMs of my youth, there were plenty of layouts published that I loved the look of then, but with more informed eyes now, can see REALLY glaring errors (as discussed on Clive Mortimore's thread this week).  Many of these same errors are being still repeated now and you've commented on yourself; long straights linking sharp 90deg curves, illegal track layouts, nonsense geographical features, overly-busy countryside.........

Frequently it's caused by a really popular layout being much copied by others, without doing the research undertaken by the original designer.

 

Rob

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3 hours ago, Clem said:

Well, I've completed the Bill Bedford O4/7 and here's the lightly weathered result: 

 

63699_wthd_rdcd.jpg.15308c2bea6ab474f4355268cf0cfd57.jpg

63699_wthd_rdcd_001.jpg.ff95add50205bbf839e6ea1704bc4b14.jpg

 

63699 was a Colwick loco which I particular remember. It was when I first became properly aware of the differences between the variations of the O4 class as pointed out by my brother who was 10 years older. It also helped that a photo of this particular engine appeared in the ABC Eastern Region for that year (1957?) and I remember thinking how one of our local engines was thus a bit of a celebrity. I had many joyous moments as a child..... 

Lovely job Clem. Looks very natural

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12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

At a time when the profile of the hobby has been raised in all forms of the media, are we (the generic 'we') not in danger of losing our ability to 'observe the prototype'? Many of the layouts featured of late show no observation of the real thing at all - in fact quite the opposite - yet they went on to become 'winners'. One could argue that the aims and objectives were totally different from what us 'modellers' might aspire to, but if 'inaccuracies' become more and more the norm, then how is the next generation of modellers (without which, the hobby has no future!) going to understand and achieve 'realism'? 

 

 

Hmm, possibly, but more likely a generalisation. I get the impression that the hobby has fractured in to two camps which have tended to polarise approaches and attitudes.

 

There are without doubt still fine, well observed, 'serious' layouts being built that reflect modelling tradition and real world accuracy. But on the other hand is the growth of RTR and the building of 'fun' casual layouts with less accurate real life portrayal, that often feature animated gimmicks and do not attempt to reflect observation of real railways (although they feature trains).

 

And, of course, these days is the mantra and attitude that all effort and participation should be rewarded and everyone is deemed 'winners'. That's just the way society is now. It's often considered that hailing someone a winner might upset and discourage others from participation. I understand that in some schools sports days have been banned or all participants in an event are now given a prize with no winner considered or announced.

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4 hours ago, Clem said:

Well, I've completed the Bill Bedford O4/7 and here's the lightly weathered result: 

 

63699_wthd_rdcd.jpg.15308c2bea6ab474f4355268cf0cfd57.jpg

63699_wthd_rdcd_001.jpg.ff95add50205bbf839e6ea1704bc4b14.jpg

 

63699 was a Colwick loco which I particular remember. It was when I first became properly aware of the differences between the variations of the O4 class as pointed out by my brother who was 10 years older. It also helped that a photo of this particular engine appeared in the ABC Eastern Region for that year (1957?) and I remember thinking how one of our local engines was thus a bit of a celebrity. I had many joyous moments as a child..... 

What a lovely model Clem,

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

1058946073_638241950sRetfordGC.jpg.848be16ed85d320bb0c4bc8a5caf31eb.jpg

 

An interesting prototype. I saw many of them (including this one) at Sheffield, Kiveton Park, Retford and on the CLC at Chester. 

 

1954709953_O4763843LittleEngines.jpg.14c3ff4e8fdb3a7aca5686d2eeeffbee.jpg

 

1525933317_O47.jpg.410a9a4f4c99a472d8f16c29b2f07528.jpg

 

948754815_Trains15unfittedfreights.jpg.95f6a63b4e47502292f864f5ccf75681.jpg

 

 

I have an example on Little Bytham, built/painted by Rob Kinsey using a Little Engines kit, and weathered by me.

 

Here's another one, this time in EM............1800657402_BlackLion16.jpg.1ae3c89988d3656fdceb58e932bb743c.jpg

 

897210375_BlackLion17.jpg.7254952b7cde0c37d610834aeb7a7bfe.jpg

 

Built by Geoff Kent, and seen running on his Black Lion Crossing. It's one of the very few O4/7s fitted with vacuum brakes.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

The owner of the Dennis Seabrook Collection has loaned it to the LNER Society for digitisation, which is more or less complete, and cataloguing, which isn't.  There are about 4,000 images in the collection, the majority of which are portraits of ex-LNER and constituent carriages in the 1950s.  There are eight photographs of E1225E taken over a number of years.

 

The corridor side appears unaltered; the kitchen side has been modified as indicated by Robert, such that, reading from right to left, there are 14 panels between the second seating bay window, and the first kitchen window.

 

Most of the photographs show the earlier BR livery, with gas tanks amidships on either side; one photograph in the later livery shows battery boxes there.

 

All photographs show Gresley bogies of course, but HD at the kitchen end only throughout.

Darryl,

That's very welcome news. Is it possible to get access to these photographs through the LNER society or directly?

Andy

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Observation of the real thing and research are very important and when you see something wrong it can ruin a good layout. One of my pet hates is hand point levers which place the person operating them in danger.  That is of course if they have been added to the layout.

A little observation and research can help make a layout better.

 

This week on a thread about small TMDs someone was being critical about them and I pointed out Pig Lane I built 30 odd years ago I had included the oil interceptor, well models the manhole covers as the interceptor is under ground. At one show a pair of chaps who obliviously worked at a depot or around loco depots pointed at the manhole covers and remarked about the fact I had included the interceptor. Both missed I did not have a red lamp on the loco furthest away from the buffer stops in each siding. 

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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Now, I have a question. The vans/wagons in the yard will soon be in the process of being shunted by the pick-up freight loco. If they were left for any length of time (say, overnight on the prototype), might the outer ones be fitted with lamps with red aspects?

Unless parked on a goods loop or similar which would be classed as a running line the wagons wouldn't have any lamps. 

A place where people don't put a lamp and there should be is if a vehicle has been left parked in a bay platform, when it should carry a red lamp at the outer end.

The whole problem with headlights is that we are into a 'Where and When' question. A standard list of train classifications and the lamps to be carried was issued by BR in 1950. This was amended on at least three occasions before the carrying of headcodes was abandoned at the start of 1976.

Going back into the Big Four they all had a few differences to the standard, and of course the Southern went its own way with routing rather than classification codes. Forther back still before the 1920s every company seemed to hve its own style of lamping.

One lamp in the middle of the buffer beam seemed to be a common occurrence on Western region branch passenger trains, I don't know the history of this. Station Pilots is another minefield. At New Street I was used to seeing one red and one white over the buffers, often wrongly captioned as to why was the Webb Coal Tank was carrying Express Passenger lamps when standing with a van on the middle sidings. Over at Snow Hill it was more usual to find the pilot with one lamp in the bottom right position on each end.

Even studying contemporary photos doesn't always seem to give a definitive answer.

 

Eric

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6 hours ago, Clem said:

Well, I've completed the Bill Bedford O4/7 and here's the lightly weathered result: 

 

63699_wthd_rdcd.jpg.15308c2bea6ab474f4355268cf0cfd57.jpg

63699_wthd_rdcd_001.jpg.ff95add50205bbf839e6ea1704bc4b14.jpg

 

63699 was a Colwick loco which I particular remember. It was when I first became properly aware of the differences between the variations of the O4 class as pointed out by my brother who was 10 years older. It also helped that a photo of this particular engine appeared in the ABC Eastern Region for that year (1957?) and I remember thinking how one of our local engines was thus a bit of a celebrity. I had many joyous moments as a child..... 

 

Evening Clem,

 

your O4/7 looks great, I have a couple of questons about the construction, could you point me in the direction of your thread.  Not being in to model railways for a while, I seem to have misplaced its locaton.

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Thanks Tony, and also to Geoff, Barry and Doug, for the kind comments for 63699. 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

An interesting prototype. I saw many of them (including this one) at Sheffield, Kiveton Park, Retford and on the CLC at Chester.

 

Yes it is Tony, and I'll bet you've guessed it was one of my favourites. The last one - 63770 - became much loved by the locals around here in Nottingham. It outlasted the other O4/7s by some time , being at Colwick until the end of Eastern region control there in December 1965. However, it would be out of time with my period being based at Immingham in the days of my layout.... But you never know, I might just do it at some time simply for the affection I had for that loco when in my early teens. 

 

The CLC must have been a very interesting line to observe with it's mixture of ex-LNE and ex-LMS locos. Incredible to think that, although the parent companies were deadly enemies, the Midland Railway and Great Northern Railway collaborated on both the CLC and M&GN. I believe it was Edward Watkin, chairman of the MSLR (later GCR) that brought them together for the CLC. 

 

 

 

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