Wright writes.....

[TrevorP1]

43 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Excellent pictures,

 

Thank you.

 

Having been commissioned to write the Books of the B1s (at least two) for Irwell, I've started my research. As usual, the works of the RCTS and Yeadon are being consulted. Unfortunately, neither lists the dates of livery variations for the individual B1s (which would be far more useful to modellers than boiler numbers), but it's clear that many B1s were turned out in apple green, brand new, post-War, including batches built for BR from 1948 onward (the last-mentioned with 'British Railways' on their tenders). Some had just their LNER numbers (1274-1287) some had an 'E' prefix to their LNER number (E1288-E1303) and some had their full BR number (61304-61339, the last built in September 1948). Later ones were turned out in black and the last ones in full BR lined black. How long any B1s remained in apple green post-Nationalisation is something I've got to research. Earlier-built locos also received apple green at their first repaint.

 

What's the painting time regime for a loco. Three years? Four years? More? I'm certain it's the early '50s before the last B1s went into black (hence my childhood memories of seeing them in green), though does anyone know which was the last one?

 

Changing the subject, it's one of my roles these days to write the book reviews for BRM. What's surprising (or is it?) is the number of B&W pictorial volumes which are being produced, mostly showing the BR steam period. A few are in colour (occasionally indifferent) but the vast majority is in monochrome (some also indifferent). What concerns me is the 'accuracy' or otherwise of several of the captions. Dates clearly wrong, locations clearly wrong, locos/stock identifications clearly wrong, directions clearly wrong (for instance, how can the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, heading westwards across the flat crossing at Retford towards Sheffield be going to Hull?) and so on. Have so many mistakes always been there in railway books? Grammatical proof-reading won't correct these sort of things, though SIR RALPH WEDGEWOOD (note the superfluous 'E') should have been intercepted. What's also disappointing, is that in some cases (very few to be fair) publishers, on seeing my 'corrections', either refuse to send new books for review or threaten to pull their advertising. Most, thankfully, are quite pleased with what I write - I try to be positive.

 

I accept that everything I've ever written probably has a blooper or two in it, and are my reviews always accurate? However, with some much 'incorrect' material out there (along with much which is excellent, to be fair) what hope is there for future historical 'accuracy' in our modelling?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Regarding the books Tony this is something I've been noticing over the last few years and about which I regularly rant to my railway mates..  A case in point is a book, part of a recent large series, that contains information and photographs of particular current interest to me. I picked a copy at a show and it seemed worth purchasing... I was about to buy it when my eyes fell on a caption - a glaring error which anyone familiar with railways in Cornwall would have spotted instantly. I put book back and possibly I'll buy one when they are remaindered on Amazon for £10.00...

 

My take on any media is that if I (who knows relatively little) can spot mistakes how accurate is the rest?

 

I fear the situation is  getting worse or possibly as my own knowledge has improved maybe I notice the errors more? More likely I feel is the sad fact that many (most?) of the original photographers are no longer with us and so cannot advise the 'authors' and publishers. Of course we all make mistakes but there are limits.

 

On a positive note at the same show I bought a copy of 'Western Ways' containing photos by R C Riley. There are long informative captions which seem well researched. There may well be the odd error but I certainly haven't spotted one. The series, published by Transport Treasury,  is well worth keeping an eye on. No connection,  just a satisfied reader.

[Clem]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Changing the subject, it's one of my roles these days to write the book reviews for BRM. What's surprising (or is it?) is the number of B&W pictorial volumes which are being produced, mostly showing the BR steam period. A few are in colour (occasionally indifferent) but the vast majority is in monochrome (some also indifferent). What concerns me is the 'accuracy' or otherwise of several of the captions. Dates clearly wrong, locations clearly wrong, locos/stock identifications clearly wrong, directions clearly wrong (for instance, how can the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, heading westwards across the flat crossing at Retford towards Sheffield be going to Hull?) and so on.

I couldn't agree more. I find it very frustrating to see some of the ill-informed captions in steam era books. It's not that it affects me directly but I think of all those enthusiastic people who have become interested in railways, whether for modelling or not, and in spite of their commendable efforts to get to the bottom of where and how the railways ran, they are misled and confused by people who really should not be doing the captions to these books - at least not without some (true) expert proof reading.  (I can excuse the isolated mistake but there are some books that are riddled mistakes and uninformed comment). I would add that the photographs in these books are often excellent which makes the poor captioning even more frustrating.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Clem

[Tony Wright]

49 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

Regarding the books Tony this is something I've been noticing over the last few years and about which I regularly rant to my railway mates..  A case in point is a book, part of a recent large series, that contains information and photographs of particular current interest to me. I picked a copy at a show and it seemed worth purchasing... I was about to buy it when my eyes fell on a caption - a glaring error which anyone familiar with railways in Cornwall would have spotted instantly. I put book back and possibly I'll buy one when they are remaindered on Amazon for £10.00...

 

My take on any media is that if I (who knows relatively little) can spot mistakes how accurate is the rest?

 

I fear the situation is  getting worse or possibly as my own knowledge has improved maybe I notice the errors more? More likely I feel is the sad fact that many (most?) of the original photographers are no longer with us and so cannot advise the 'authors' and publishers. Of course we all make mistakes but there are limits.

 

On a positive note at the same show I bought a copy of 'Western Ways' containing photos by R C Riley. There are long informative captions which seem well researched. There may well be the odd error but I certainly haven't spotted one. The series, published by Transport Treasury,  is well worth keeping an eye on. No connection,  just a satisfied reader.

Thanks Trevor,

 

You're right about most of the photographers no longer being with us. 

 

That said, I've fallen too many times into the trap of believing what's in a caption attached to a picture/transparency, written by the picture-taker (often now deceased), which is a work of total fiction. Keith Pirt, though a brilliant photographer, was among the worst. I stupidly just copied and pasted a caption to a picture of his in a book I wrote recently for Booklaw, which had the date out by two years! What was more irritating was that I should have known this - late at night, meeting a deadline, excuses, excuses, excuses.......................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Headstock]

Talking of green B1's, a quick project to get me back into the swing of things. I was given this Hornby beastie as a refurb job. Apparently, a certain manufactures white spirit makes excellent paint stripper. Whilst it was in this condition, I decided to replace the chimney and dome with the excellent Bradwell examples. I also cut off and rubbed down the moulded pipe work to be replaced with fuse wire and brass wire. My target locomotive, 1192, didn't receive electric lighting whilst in LNER green, however the conduits, lamp brackets and dynamo were fitted. I replaced the lamps and brackets on loco and tender with LMR etched brass components, minus the actual lamps.

 

I was under the impression that Hornby had produced two different smokebox styles for the B1 model. Not so! A well as the NE and GNR styles seen on the BR liveried versions, the green B1 has a third type.  A rather ugly small diameter version, this was cut and filed away and replaced by a Bradwell version more suited to 1192. Unfortunatly, I had already repainted the smokebox bedfore discovering that the door needed replacing.One step forwards and another back. Some replacement components had to be manufactured, new cab doors and drain cocks for the cylinders, the former from plasticard and the latter soldered up from brass rod. The couplings were cut away with the bogie fronts reprofiled and the frames extended to fill the big gap over the bogie wheels.

 

In order to paint the model, I had to mix a suitable green to match the Hornby original. In this I was extremely successful and am pretty pleased with the results, I also repainted the driving wheels, these were green plastic and didn't match the body or tender. The final bit of painting was to replace some of the tender lining that had been damaged. Rather than use the bow pen, I masked a thin line and airbrushed on the damaged areas. Done this way, I was able to blend in with the undamaged lining quite successfully. The final job, except for coal and crew, will be bogie wheel replacements and a bit more painting.

 

 

 

P.S. Since the photo above was taken, the smokebox lamp bracket and cab doors have been added.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Headstock
Add poscript

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Excellent pictures,

 

Thank you.

 

Having been commissioned to write the Books of the B1s (at least two) for Irwell, I've started my research. As usual, the works of the RCTS and Yeadon are being consulted. Unfortunately, neither lists the dates of livery variations for the individual B1s (which would be far more useful to modellers than boiler numbers), but it's clear that many B1s were turned out in apple green, brand new, post-War, including batches built for BR from 1948 onward (the last-mentioned with 'British Railways' on their tenders). Some had just their LNER numbers (1274-1287) some had an 'E' prefix to their LNER number (E1288-E1303) and some had their full BR number (61304-61339, the last built in September 1948). Later ones were turned out in black and the last ones in full BR lined black. How long any B1s remained in apple green post-Nationalisation is something I've got to research. Earlier-built locos also received apple green at their first repaint.

 

What's the painting time regime for a loco. Three years? Four years? More? I'm certain it's the early '50s before the last B1s went into black (hence my childhood memories of seeing them in green), though does anyone know which was the last one?

 

Changing the subject, it's one of my roles these days to write the book reviews for BRM. What's surprising (or is it?) is the number of B&W pictorial volumes which are being produced, mostly showing the BR steam period. A few are in colour (occasionally indifferent) but the vast majority is in monochrome (some also indifferent). What concerns me is the 'accuracy' or otherwise of several of the captions. Dates clearly wrong, locations clearly wrong, locos/stock identifications clearly wrong, directions clearly wrong (for instance, how can the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, heading westwards across the flat crossing at Retford towards Sheffield be going to Hull?) and so on. Have so many mistakes always been there in railway books? Grammatical proof-reading won't correct these sort of things, though SIR RALPH WEDGEWOOD (note the superfluous 'E') should have been intercepted. What's also disappointing, is that in some cases (very few to be fair) publishers, on seeing my 'corrections', either refuse to send new books for review or threaten to pull their advertising. Most, thankfully, are quite pleased with what I write - I try to be positive.

 

I accept that everything I've ever written probably has a blooper or two in it, and are my reviews always accurate? However, with much 'incorrect' material out there (along with much which is excellent, to be fair) what hope is there for future historical 'accuracy' in our modelling?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Regarding B1 liveries, as new locomotives entered into service through the early transitional years, if you don’t have primary data for the B1’s it would be reasonable to extrapolate transitional dates from other classes with better documentation, as an approximation.  For example, we know that it was in a May 1949 that the first A3’s appeared in express passenger blue, with the cycling lion logo.  With the exception of experimental liveries, Apple green with ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ lettering would have been applied to repaints prior to this date.  I’m not aware that the cycling lion totem was ever used on an Apple green painted locomotive, but you can never be sure...!

 

Of course the only accurate way to track this for the Bongoes would be to trawl through all the photographs available to you, cross referencing with manufacturing dates and that of other members of the class in time order.  Tedious at best.

 

In the case of the A3’s, two stick out as retaining the Apple green livery for longer than the rest of the class:  60070 Gladiateur and 60076 Galopin, both of which went straight into Brunswick Green in Jan/Feb 1952.  As ever, this is not information from a primary source, so comes with a caveat!  Nonetheless, You can get a good indication of what each works was turning out at any given date (which of course was not necessarily the same across all the works!)

[65179]

2 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

Regarding B1 liveries, as new locomotives entered into service through the early transitional years, if you don’t have primary data for the B1’s it would be reasonable to extrapolate transitional dates from other classes with better documentation, as an approximation.  For example, we know that it was in a May 1949 that the first A3’s appeared in express passenger blue, with the cycling lion logo.  With the exception of experimental liveries, Apple green with ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ lettering would have been applied to repaints prior to this date.  I’m not aware that the cycling lion totem was ever used on an Apple green painted locomotive, but you can never be sure...!

 

Of course the only accurate way to track this for the Bongoes would be to trawl through all the photographs available to you, cross referencing with manufacturing dates and that of other members of the class in time order.  Tedious at best.

 

In the case of the A3’s, two stick out as retaining the Apple green livery for longer than the rest of the class:  60070 Gladiateur and 60076 Galopin, both of which went straight into Brunswick Green in Jan/Feb 1952.  As ever, this is not information from a primary source, so comes with a caveat!  Nonetheless, You can get a good indication of what each works was turning out at any given date (which of course was not necessarily the same across all the works!)

 

 

I don't think you can really extrapolate.  It just about works for things like adoption of the new emblem or curly 6s at a particular loco works, but even then there are variations class to class.  The B1s are a nightmare because of their time of introduction and the detail variations within the batches.  The number of different manufacturers who may or may not have been following the right paint information has a bearing too (not B1s but think of the lovely lining job Beyer-Peacock did on some (?) of their J39s in a livery that had long ceased to be applied to the rest of the class - one of the reasons 1856 is the manufacturer's choice for an LNER J39).  Like Headstock my time of interest is circa 1950.  Gorton was allocated at that time a batch of Vulcan Foundry B1s which were mostly (if not all - I don't have my books to hand to check) delivered in green.  You'd think they'd all look the same, but in that small number at one point in 1950, most would be in lined black, but some had BRITISH RAILWAYS in full, some had the first BR lion, at least one had a blank space tender side apart from the lining, one was in well-kept plain black and if you add in Darnall locos from the same batch you could have a green one.  All of those with electric lighting fittings (or at least remains of), but most with the Metropolitan-Vickers axle-mounted generator to power the lights lost somewhere in the cess. 

 

Simon

[micklner]

My Hornby B1 a simple renumber and name job, this was the only Apple Green named B1 I found a photo off, that matched the Hornby configuration. Lovely Loco well done Hornby.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by micklner

[Tony Wright]

A rather nice post-War apple green B1 (in B&W, naturally). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

61160 at York in 1950. This would have been a repaint, after the loco first appeared in black. 

 

Would anyone adorn a B1 model like this?

 

 

Does anyone know the occasion, please? Or where? The electric warning flashes suggest post-'61. 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions.

 

I'm going to have fun writing the books! 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A rather nice post-War apple green B1 (in B&W, naturally).Would anyone adorn a B1 model like this?

 

 

Does anyone know the occasion, please? Or where? The electric warning flashes suggest post-'61. 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions.

 

I'm going to have fun writing the books! 

 

Looks like a wagon-lift coaling stage on the left edge of the picture?   31B March had that style of yard lamp and 61119 was based there from September ‘62.  

 

?

[Lecorbusier]

so .... what colours would there actually have been in this image?

 

 

Obviously the loco will be a vibrant splash of green. Presumably the station canopy edging will be grimy cream? .... not sure about the columns - would they have been cream with a green base? Then we have the tracks which I hazard would have a degree of orange rust, coupled to whatever the local ballast colour might be. The signals themselves will add to the variety ... and then we have the shed/warehouse in the background - presumably a deep industrial red of sorts? The variation of tone suggests quite a richness. And finally, given the reasonably strong shadows I suspect the sky is blue coupled to a warm sunny hue on what it touches.

 

A very evocative black and white photo to be sure ... but perhaps not a wholly true representation of the reality? I would love to see a skilful model of the same scene to fill in the blanks.

 

I love films like this....

 

 

And it must have been even more vibrant pre war I assume.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Lecorbusier

[richard i]

10 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

so .... what colours would there actually have been in this image?

 

 

Obviously the loco will be a vibrant splash of green. Presumably the station canopy edging will be grimy cream? .... not sure about the columns - would they have been cream with a green base? Then we have the tracks which I hazard would have a degree of orange rust, coupled to whatever the local ballast colour might be. The signals themselves will add to the variety ... and then we have the shed/warehouse in the background - presumably a deep industrial red of sorts? The variation of tone suggests quite a richness. And finally, given the reasonably strong shadows I suspect the sky is blue coupled to a warm sunny hue on what it touches.

 

A very evocative black and white photo to be sure ... but perhaps not a wholly true representation of the reality? I would love to see a skilful model of the same scene to fill in the blanks.

Or it could be colored in as a photo. If I have time I might give it a bash. It looks so sharp and has a great composition.

richard

unless someone else beats me to it. 

[Darryl Tooley]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Does anyone know the occasion, please?

Possibly prepared for the Duke of Edinburgh's visit to Weybourne in May 1963.

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11616

[Andy Hayter]

38 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

so .... what colours would there actually have been in this image?

 

 

... and then we have the shed/warehouse in the background - presumably a deep industrial red of sorts? The variation of tone suggests quite a richness. 

 

 

York bricks were generally on the pink (lighter coloured ones) through to brown rather than a rich red found elsewhere.

[PJT]

10 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

On a positive note at the same show I bought a copy of 'Western Ways' containing photos by R C Riley. There are long informative captions which seem well researched. There may well be the odd error but I certainly haven't spotted one. The series, published by Transport Treasury,  is well worth keeping an eye on. No connection,  just a satisfied reader.

 

I'm another very satisfied reader of this series, with no connection.  The second volume, 'Somerset & Dorset' is very good too, while the third, 'Southern Medley' (which I've just finished today) features Mike King's hugely informative caption writing.  This volume also includes some wonderful images of everyday details of the past railway scene that are too often overlooked by photographers and publishers but are so coveted by us modellers. 

 

Pete T.

 

[grahame]

I'll interject for the last time with regards to updating some generic N/2mm 4-wheel coaches with a quick pic I've taken of them at their latest current stage. The loco is a white metal Thameshead Models kit-built BR 97xx condensing pannier tank - it's probably the only small steamy one I've got. It's not really my bag so I'm a little out of my comfort zone but at least the whole train is a modelling project rather than simply emptied out of a box. 

 

[65179]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A rather nice post-War apple green B1 (in B&W, naturally). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

61160 at York in 1950. This would have been a repaint, after the loco first appeared in black. 

 

61010 in your photo is an oddity in that it received an A2/1 tender when built and is shown with that same tender. Note the raised strip on the tender side visible above the lining.

 

Simon

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

so .... what colours would there actually have been in this image?

 

 

Obviously the loco will be a vibrant splash of green. Presumably the station canopy edging will be grimy cream? .... not sure about the columns - would they have been cream with a green base? Then we have the tracks which I hazard would have a degree of orange rust, coupled to whatever the local ballast colour might be. The signals themselves will add to the variety ... and then we have the shed/warehouse in the background - presumably a deep industrial red of sorts? The variation of tone suggests quite a richness. And finally, given the reasonably strong shadows I suspect the sky is blue coupled to a warm sunny hue on what it touches.

 

A very evocative black and white photo to be sure ... but perhaps not a wholly true representation of the reality? I would love to see a skilful model of the same scene to fill in the blanks.

 

I love films like this....

 

 

And it must have been even more vibrant pre war I assume.

Thank you for posting that piece of film. Very interesting. 
 

Linking this to an earlier topic, the 45xx on the Looe branch carries an apparent light engine head code. Since the earlier discussion I’ve seen this in other photos. Presumably then this must have been a Cornish thing? ( My apologies if this has been established already and I’ve been asleep and missed it!)

[Barry Ten]

59 minutes ago, grahame said:

I'll interject for the last time with regards to updating some generic N/2mm 4-wheel coaches with a quick pic I've taken of them at their latest current stage. The loco is a white metal Thameshead Models kit-built BR 97xx condensing pannier tank - it's probably the only small steamy one I've got. It's not really my bag so I'm a little out of my comfort zone but at least the whole train is a modelling project rather than simply emptied out of a box. 

 

 

 

Nice work, Grahame. I've enjoyed seeing these carriages come along. Does this train fit into a layout project of yours, or is just a bit of fun modelling for the sake of it?

[Tony Wright]

Interestingly, the apple green B1 pictured earlier carries no lamp, but a disc. Much more of a GE-section thing, yet it's deep in NE territory. It was never shedded anywhere but Hull, so is unlikely to be bound (eventually) for East Anglia. 

 

It's in forward gear and I imagine it's on a shunting move within station limits, so as long as lamps/discs were displayed at front and rear then it was accepted.

 

Thompson certainly favoured discs (though the LMS lines on which some of his locos ran did not), and the B1 has electric lighting. I don't think I've seen discs on locos before at York, but I'll have a look through my photos. 

[31A]

I think there was a very short period after the War when the LNER seemed to be adopting headcode discs universally; some of the early Thompson Pacifics had fixed ones hinged at the base for a little while - I wonder whether it's anything to do with that?

 

[Headstock]

7 hours ago, micklner said:

My Hornby B1 a simple renumber and name job, this was the only Apple Green named B1 I found a photo off, that matched the Hornby configuration. Lovely Loco well done Hornby.

 

 

Evening Mick,

 

are you sure about that?

[grahame]

1 hour ago, Barry Ten said:

 

 

Nice work, Grahame. I've enjoyed seeing these carriages come along. Does this train fit into a layout project of yours, or is just a bit of fun modelling for the sake of it?

 

Thanks. It's just a bit of modeling enjoyment. I've had the old coaches and some of the parts for a while so it was opportune to use them, although not being a subject that is of great interest to me or fits a layout, my enthusiasm for it has waned a little. But I've perservered.

 

[micklner]

8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Mick,

 

are you sure about that?

Morning

 

??

 

This the only photo I had to work from.

 

 

 

 

[Lecorbusier]

Random I Know .... and nothing to do with anything .... but ....

Edited December 5, 2019 by Lecorbusier

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

I think there was a very short period after the War when the LNER seemed to be adopting headcode discs universally; some of the early Thompson Pacifics had fixed ones hinged at the base for a little while - I wonder whether it's anything to do with that?

 

It could well be Steve,

 

I assume it was confined to those locos fitted with electric lighting. I can't find any shots (immediately) showing Gresley Pacifics carrying discs immediately post-War. I'll look more closely.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.