grahame Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 This might be of interest if anyone is following the planning and building of my N/2mm layout - and it is sort of modelling. I've now got the full depth of the layout (at it's widest point/end) worked out with the north/south road finalised, although not complete. I've managed to keep it under the max of 3'6" I planned for it with compression. It needs to be quite wide to accommodate the through and terminus stations which are just east of it. However it will taper down towards the other end. In the pic below the north ends abruptly at the start of London Bridge itself where the backscene board will be. The difficult bit was working out all the complex slopes that exist (no large area of roads is billiard table/baseboard flat), but hopefully I think I've got them suitably incorporated. Basically the road rises from front to back (bottom to top in the pic below) to go over the Thames with lots of other slopes leading off either up to London Bridge station or down to Tooley Street. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted December 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Now, what does a fully-finished, latest Hornby B12/3 cost? More than that I'd expect. Currently £123 for a brand new one in BR lined black, according to a well known retailer near Liverpool.... they list it as a BARGAIN. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 4 hours ago, 4069 said: You are partially correct. Dealing with current practice, "Call attention" (1 beat) precedes every other signal except for "train entering section" (two beats) and the various emergency codes (which I'm assuming you aren't interested in for modelling purposes). Going back in time, the GWR and BR(WR) did not use "call attention" before "train out of section" (two pause one) until the various regional differences in bellcodes were eliminated in 1972. A further GWR variation was that the "train out of section" signal was not acknowledged. In standard working, a signalman will offer a train forward on receipt of "train entering section" from the box in rear. However, if sections are short, trains may be offered on immediately they are accepted. This will be specified, when necessary, in the special instructions for each signal box (called "footnotes" on the Western). Stuart J Thanks Stuart I somehow missed your reply earlier. This is just the clarification I was looking for. I'm modelling an ex-LNER line in BR days circa 1955, so it sounds like the only adjustment I need is to remove the call attention signal for the train entering section stage. There are other tweaks that will be desirable but it works well enough even now. Cheers Clem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said: There's a photo of 1018 in 'LNER Locomotives in Colour 1936-1948' (White & Johnston, Colourpoint, 2002) evidently taken when it was still only a few months old. Red lining on the outer face of the frame extensions, but not on the area where the front apron rises up to the running plate. D Good spot Daryl, Northing surprises me about these locomotives. I haven't bothered to look at any images to see if there are any differences myself. If I were to Delve too deep beyond the locomotives that I am modelling, it tends to deflect the focus and takes up a lot of modelling time. As long as I have a general understanding and the B1's that I have personally built, converted or renovated are 100% correct, I'm happy. Any information that comes to light is valuable, I would certainly be wanting to incorporate the correct livery variations into a model that I was creating. There are anomaly's in the model of 1037 Jairou that are apparent from just a general understanding of the subject. A deep dive would be more revealing but would also gobble up time and the loco is not that relevant to my own modelling. If I was writing a book I would be obliged to be more diligent across the entire subject. It will be up to Tony, as a pro, to go through tons of pictures of every locomotive in the batch to get his book (or could it multiple books) right. I will certainly be purchasing a copy, providing that the book is a proper historical piece. One that assigns equal weight to the full timeline of the B1's and not just another one of those late 50's, early 60's nostalgia pieces. I'm sure the latter will not be the case. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post grahame Posted December 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2019 And with some of the buildings roughly and temporarily placed in their location this part of the cityscape is starting to look like this: 15 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Headstock said: Good spot Daryl, Northing surprises me about these locomotives. I haven't bothered to look at any images to see if there are any differences myself. If I were to Delve too deep beyond the locomotives that I am modelling, it tends to deflect the focus and takes up a lot of modelling time. As long as I have a general understanding and the B1's that I have personally built, converted or renovated are 100% correct, I'm happy. Any information that comes to light is valuable, I would certainly be wanting to incorporate the correct livery variations into a model that I was creating. There are anomaly's in the model of 1037 Jairou that are apparent from just a general understanding of the subject. A deep dive would be more revealing but would also gobble up time and the loco is not that relevant to my own modelling. If I was writing a book I would be obliged to be more diligent across the entire subject. It will be up to Tony, as a pro, to go through tons of pictures of every locomotive in the batch to get his book (or could it multiple books) right. I will certainly be purchasing a copy, providing that the book is a proper historical piece. One that assigns equal weight to the full timeline of the B1's and not just another one of those late 50's, early 60's nostalgia pieces. I'm sure the latter will not be the case. I hope I can live up to the weight of your expectation, Andrew.................. Having discussed the format with Chris Hawkins yesterday, I hope that the books (at least two) of the B1s will be different from what's gone before. I don't mean 'better', but different. For instance, there will not be build dates and scrapping dates for each loco. Allocations will be mentioned where they're pertinent to a working. For instance........... Let's examine this brilliant shot taken at Peterborough in the late '50s (my date guess here). Not too late, because the loco isn't fitted with AWS (checking will have to be done to make sure it ever was fitted). The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a Kings Cross-Cleethorpes express (or at least a train for the East Lincs line). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses. But, what an express. I can find this consist in none of my BR documents. In it, one can make out a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. There are at least three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK. My guess it's a summer Saturday service. The loco is in full forward gear, so that probably means a check by Crescent 'box, prior to stopping. Note the loco's lamps - set at different heights, though both on tall brackets. These suggest a loco due to be fitted with electric lighting, but never carried. And, just look at the Peterborough layout. Despite the dog-leg, isn't the main formation straight? Straight enough for current non-stop trains to fly through at speed. Are these observations all pertinent to this B1? I think so, and my intention is to write captions along these lines. Boiler changes (which have been published elsewhere, will not be mentioned, though different smokebox doors will). Next, how about this? Location unknown at the moment (any ideas?), but obviously in Scotland. It's the 'Fife Coast Express', though it only qualifies as a Class B working (note just one lamp). Note also the high position of the front numberplate on the loco, because of the close position of the hingestraps. The train's consist is five cars, a triplet 2nd and a twin 1st, all from the pre-War 'Silver Jubilee (the catering triplet from that great train was used in a fast Newcastle-Kings Cross service by this time). The cars are in maroon, carry the BR roundel, but are not lined, though the stainless steel horizontal beading appears to be exposed. These sorts of captions are how I'm going to approach the writing of these books - much more (I hope) than just where and when the loco was built and when it was withdrawn/scrapped. Those facts are important, though they've all been published before. For obvious copyright reasons, I won't be posting many more, even though I have a least 500 shots to choose from! Please, all, respect copyright limitations Any comments, from anyone, please. Regards, Tony. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Chamby said: Currently £123 for a brand new one in BR lined black, according to a well known retailer near Liverpool.... they list it as a BARGAIN. That does sound good value, Phil, Especially as it's at least £150.00 to have one I've made painted (professionally) in BR lined black. However, I won't be buying a Hornby one (however good) for the reasons I've mentioned many times before. Anyway, I already have two completed/painted B12/3s................... I built this one from a PDK kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it (beautifully). I use it on the 'Leicester', on the MR/M&GNR bit of LB. There's one on the main line as well (like the one on the east-west route, a little earlier than 1958, but it's my trainset). I built/painted/weathered this one, using a Coopercraft kit, one of only three known to have been built and working - Jonathan Wealleans and Chris Trafford, please take a bow! I can't decide whether to have the latest one I'm building, Grantham-allocated or one from South Lynn. We'll see. Regards, Tony. Edited December 6, 2019 by Tony Wright typo error 16 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tony Wright said: The cars are in maroon, carry the BR roundel, but are not lined, though the stainless steel horizontal beading appears to be exposed. I'm afraid that I'm not convinced. I see the upper surface of the coach beading reflecting the light - as is the edge of the roof and the upper surface of the boiler handrail of the loco. I am equally dubious about whether or not the coaches are lined - at least on the waistline. If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across; .... and as for exposed stainless steel beading on a maroon coach? When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited December 6, 2019 by cctransuk 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted December 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Tony Wright said: I hope I can live up to the weight of your expectation, Andrew.................. Having discussed the format with Chris Hawkins yesterday, I hope that the books (at least two) of the B1s will be different from what's gone before. I don't mean 'better', but different. For instance, there will not be build dates and scrapping dates for each loco. Allocations will be mentioned where they're pertinent to a working. For instance........... Let's examine this brilliant shot taken at Peterborough in the late '50s (my date guess here). Not too late, because the loco isn't fitted with AWS (checking will have to be done to make sure it ever was fitted). The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a Kings Cross-Cleethorpes express (or at least a train for the East Lincs line). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses. But, what an express. I can find this consist in none of my BR documents. In it, one can make out a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. There are at least three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK. My guess it's a summer Saturday service. Kings Cross-Skeggy on 19/7/58 according to Colour Rail. Simon 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, cctransuk said: I'm afraid that I'm not convinced. I see the upper surface of the coach beading reflecting the light - as is the edge of the roof and the upper surface of the boiler handrail of the loco. I am equally dubious about whether of not the coaches are lined - at least on the waistline. If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across; .... and as for exposed stainless steel beading on a maroon coach? When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out. Regards, John Isherwood. John, I should have mentioned that my conclusion is based on the lower picture on page 65 of LNER Carriages by Michael Harris. This shows the twin 1sts (in the train in the picture of the B1) In maroon, BR roundel, definitely not lined and stainless steel strip (it would appear) evident. 'If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across;'. You've come across them now. 'Less is often more'? And, what constitutes 'irrefutable proof'? My friend, David Lowther, photographed some of the streamliners being broken up at Tyne Dock in the early-'60s. I'm basing my conclusions on his pictures and his observations. First-hand observations. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 10 minutes ago, 65179 said: Kings Cross-Skeggy on 19/7/58 according to Colour Rail. Simon Many thanks Simon, Was the 19/7/58 a Saturday? If not, I still can't find this formation in any of my documents. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Tony, Saturday, 19 July 1958. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Many thanks Simon, Was the 19/7/58 a Saturday? If not, I still can't find this formation in any of my documents. Regards, Tony. Evening Tony, I don't see anything special about the formation, nice shot, not the most interesting train. If it is a Saturday KX - Skeggy train, then it is a random bunch of thirds (second) and a bit of first class, quite in line with the 1958 CWN. I notice that first class is often designated as second class in these trains, presumably because they worked other services earlier as first class. The leading carriage could be a BCK, this type is in one of the Skeg trains as are Thompson CK's in others, both are labelled as for use of second class but for the Skeg service only. P.s. The lamp brackets on the B1 are not the tall type. Edited December 6, 2019 by Headstock add info and clarify a point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted December 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2019 With respect Tony, 61071 is not in full forward gear - in fact she is well linked up, the eccentric rod is close to the centre of the expansion link. A driver wouldn't put her into full gear when running through like that, but maybe down to 45% or so. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted December 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, cctransuk said: When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out. I beg to differ. Even if you're not sure, I think it's worth including a best guess provided that it's labelled as such. That may set someone else on the path to discovering what the train/ location/ etc. really is. The problem comes when guesses are stated as definitive facts and then repeated. That's definitely not 'Sir's' style. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: I beg to differ. Even if you're not sure, I think it's worth including a best guess provided that it's labelled as such. That may set someone else on the path to discovering what the train/ location/ etc. really is. The problem comes when guesses are stated as definitive facts and then repeated. That's definitely not 'Sir's' style. Morning Andy, I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 8 hours ago, New Haven Neil said: With respect Tony, 61071 is not in full forward gear - in fact she is well linked up, the eccentric rod is close to the centre of the expansion link. A driver wouldn't put her into full gear when running through like that, but maybe down to 45% or so. With respect Neil, Don't you mean the radius rod? The eccentric rod's position never moves, because the expansion link is a fixed pivot (or that's my understanding). Regards, Tony. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Headstock said: Evening Tony, I don't see anything special about the formation, nice shot, not the most interesting train. If it is a Saturday KX - Skeggy train, then it is a random bunch of thirds (second) and a bit of first class, quite in line with the 1958 CWN. I notice that first class is often designated as second class in these trains, presumably because they worked other services earlier as first class. The leading carriage could be a BCK, this type is in one of the Skeg trains as are Thompson CK's in others, both are labelled as for use of second class but for the Skeg service only. P.s. The lamp brackets on the B1 are not the tall type. Nothing special? Not the most interesting train? It's probably the only time in recorded history that this bunch of cars was ever coupled together in this manner. It interests me, especially if I chose to build something like this (though it would not have run through LB). I did look hard at those brackets. You're probably right, but why are the lamps perched so high up? Regards, Tony. Edited December 7, 2019 by Tony Wright to clarify a point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Headstock said: Morning Andy, I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research. You're not asking for much, Andrew, As far as I know, the book(s) you demand have never been published. Or, because of what you insist upon, WILL never be published. However, I'm entirely in agreement that there are too many railway books printed with captions that are just nonsense. And, what's wrong with a little bit of 'best-guessing', as long as that's made clear in the caption. I'd never state it as definitive fact (or is that tautology?). For instance, John Isherwood made a very valid observation about my caption to the 'Fife Coast Express' picture. It's the first time I've ever seen a shot of the rake in maroon, and (I would suggest) it's not lined. This is substantiated by the picture in the book I cited, and my access to the (unpublished) pictures. Yet, I've never seen the lack of lining ever mentioned before in any publication/official document. The 'water is muddied' by the fact that the ex-Silver Jubilee dining triplet WAS lined in maroon, and any horizontal stainless steel beading was painted over. Yet, again, I've never seen that recorded. I'm basing my conclusions on observations. Observations of photographs (from years ago). Out of necessity, some conclusions will have to be (educated?) guesswork. And, when you build a model, do you use dozens of pictures of the individual carriage/loco you're making? Top, bottom, sides, ends, underneath, three quarter front, three quarter rear, etc? I try to, but I've never come across umpteen pictures, all taken on the same day, from every single angle of an individual item - not even works' shots. So, at least to me, some educated guesses have to be made. Recently, I've gone through pictures and found a 'Princess Royal' with ROUND front buffers, an Ivatt 2-6-0 2MT with OVAL front buffers (were they swopped at CREWE?) and a Scottish Director with one round and one oval buffer on its front beam. Yet, I've never seen these recorded before. How can one describe such things without 'guessing' how they came about? I admire your zeal! Regards, Tony. 3 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 If a good or interesting picture exists .... which may show something of interest to many or a detail in particular clarity .... should this not be made available by publication because there is doubt about some other aspect? ... and if there is doubt but an informed suggestion can be offered, should this also be rejected - after all it may well be correct. The critical thing surely is clarity of the status of the information imparted? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Headstock said: Morning Andy, I disagree, I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research. Morning Andrew, That was a very early morning for you! I admire your perfectionism and it certainly shines through in your models, but I think that this is a classic case of 'the best being the enemy of the good'. Railway modellers are often not good at compromise (I've had similar exchanges with Steve Banks!) but I feel that some educated guess work can help others make further strides in identifying the full data which we would all like - rather like the responses to Tony's original post have done. So let's take the B1 at Peterborough as an example. A little research has identified the date and the sun position tells us that it's morning, but more research is unlikely to ever identify exactly what train it was on, so we have two choices of types of caption: 1. The 'Wright' approach: B1, 61079 approaching Peterborough from the south on mixed rake of stock on Saturday 19th July 1958. Notably the rake includes a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. It also includes three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK. The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a morning summer Saturday train from the southern end of the GN line to the East Lincs line (probably Skegness or Cleethorpes). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses. 2. The perfectionist approach: B1, 61079 approaches an unknown location hauling an unknown train on an unknown date. The loco was built in September 1946 and withdrawn in June 1962. I'm exaggerating for effect and with a little effort some of the data could be established beyond reasonable doubt as this exchange proves. But one sees too many captions like the second one and I, for one, know which I prefer. I can then use my own judgement to fill in any gaps as I see fit. Regards Andy 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere. The American magazine Classic Trains has been doing just that for several years. Each quarterly issue has a a double paged spread called, "What's in a Photo.". One page has the photo with several added numbers in red. The other page has captions for each of those numbers. The current issue has 12 captions of which the loco is only mentioned as a passing refernce in one. The other 11 are all about background features and the railway infrastructure. I always find them fascinating. Knowing how Kalmbach (the publishers) work they will no doubt do a book of these features at some point. Jamie Edited December 7, 2019 by jamie92208 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, jamie92208 said: The American magazine Classic Trains has been doing just that for several years. Each quarterly issue has a a double paged spread called, "What's in a Photo.". One page has the photo with several added numbers in red. The other page has caltions for each of those numbers. The current issue has 12 captions of which the loco is only mentioned as a passi g refernce in one. The other 11 are all about bavkground features and the railway infratructure. I always find them fascinating. Knowing how Kalmbach (the publishers) work they will no doubt do a book of these features at some point. Jamie They are a very interesting part of each magazine. I've mentioned before that I've never seen a UK railway photo taken on my birthday, or even a day or two either side of it, presumably because of a belt of poor weather in the country at the time, but one of those Classic Trains shots was taken on the day. That makes me "classic" I suppose. Al 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere. Yes, I've certainly been frustrated by a dull dirty train obscuring other details when trying to undertake research about a place. Even worse is when most of the picture is clouded out by huge amounts of steam and smoke escaping from the engine . . . . . 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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