robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Regarding the Silver Jubilee twin brake first in maroon, I have a Colour Rail slide which shows it very clearly having no lining but the metal beading intact under the windows, and coaching stock roundels on both cars. Image is dated 1961. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Going back to the B1 at Peterborough, this is the booked formation for the Saturday 7.50 am King's Cross-Skegness in 1958: 0750-KGX-Skeg_Summer-Saturday-1958 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr The symbol by the two CK(3-3) indicates transverse corridor (ie Thompson) stock. By 1958, the pressure ventilated CKs were no longer needed in the prestige services. There was no CK in the Elizabethan and the Flying Scotsman was largely BR Standard stock, hence they would have been displaced elsewhere. As the side-door Gresley and BR Standard SKs had eight compartments, it probably didn't matter too much which ones were in the train. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 12 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere. A humorous observation, and thank you. I think as long as a locomotive is the principal item in an image, then it should take precedence over all other ancillary stuff when writing a caption. It should be described, details pointed out and, where possible, what work it's on. My B1 book(s) will, after all, be about B1s. However, that said, once the pertinent points have been mentioned (based on evidence), then whatever else (of interest) in an image should be commented on in my view. For instance, I've just been looking through a (generally) good book on a particular Gresley class. In one shot, the loco is briefly mentioned and then, because he's in the foreground, we're told a 'railwayman crosses the tracks'. Without (I hope) offending those with visual impairment, it's absolutely axiomatic! Yet, an interesting piece of arcane rolling stock in the background isn't even mentioned. Despite it being an interesting title, no publisher (as yet) has asked me to write The Book of Backgrounds. Regards, Tony. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 11 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: Changing the Subject somewhat, here are some pictures of my latest completed project. It’s a GCR bogie fish van built from a WSM kit. It was a bit of a struggle as it was made from thick brass which needed to be laminated together. It certainly tested my soldering iron’s power! Only a few of these made it through to nationalisation, and I believe they were relegated to parcels traffic by that stage. So I’ve finished it in LNER livery without fish branding and will use it in a mixed van train. I had to guess a bit (tut tut!) so I’ve probably made some mistakes. Any comments welcome. Andy Great stuff, Andy, What might one call this approach? Pragmatic? Personal? Creative? The product of educated guesswork? A layout van? Unique? Thanks for posting. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 10 hours ago, cctransuk said: Having consulted Harris, I concur with your analysis of the photo and with the caption, and apologise for doubting you. The point that I was trying to make is that, nowadays, far too many photo captions make bold statements that are in no way supported by the information contained in the photo itself. When those statements are based on research elsewhere there should be some indication of the fact, so that the reader can have confidence in the veracity of the caption. Of course, a great many captions, especially in magazines, are just plain wrong - or as we plain-speaking Lancastrians would say - b*ll*cks !! Regards, John Isherwood. Good evening John, I've said it before, but never feel the need to apologise to me. Constructive, critical observations to comments in posts on this thread make it what it is in my view. Some years ago on here, I made a statement about my approach to modelling prototype locations; in my case, of course, an ECML prototype. My approach was to never attempt to model a main line location in less than 30' (in 4mm). It results (fact) in far too tight visible curves at the ends. Someone took it as implied criticism of his approach (in less than 30'), and his 'followers' (for want of a better description) were rather upset about it, as was he. Statements and opinions should be challenged from time to time, and (if I may?), it's up to the likes of yourself to keep those challenges coming. Regards, Tony. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 9 hours ago, Headstock said: Morning Tony, Nothing special, exactly. Pretty typical of this kind of train, a hodge podge of second class, or carriages designated as second class for the working. If you look at the formation its pretty straight forwards and fairly consistent with the CWN. The verity of types is also what you would expect at the time period that the photograph was taken. It is a fact that BR failed consistently throughout most of the fifties to meet its own building programmes for MK1 carriages. It is also a fact that those compiling CWN's consistently overestimated the availability of MK1 carriages for Eastern region use in the late fifties. This is not a guesstimation, its simple facts. If the CWN specifies X and you don't have enough of X you had better find something else. Then consider that the further you get down the pecking order, the more likely it becomes that you are required to replace X with Y, Z and maybe a little Q. The point is, the photograph reveals the typical rather than the extraordinary. A caption, that emphasised how typical this kind of formation on this kind of working was and why, would be much better than 'wow, what and amazing set of carriages, isn't it special.' As an example, the likes of the PV Thompson had long since been cascaded from their original status, were else would you expect to see such carriages? On B1 lamp brackets. There seems to be two types that are associated with the two types of electric light fitted, or not fitted as the case may be. The earlier lights seem to be the most likely to have been removed from the locomotives. Both types of bracket elevated the lamp above the light, more so in the case of the box lights as opposed to the originals that looked more like early car indicators. Non of the B1's as far as I can tell had a conventional lamp bracket that would allow the lamp to sit right down on the platform. 'As an example, the likes of the PV Thompson had long since been cascaded from their original status, were (sic) else would you expect to see such carriages?' Andrew, I really must beg to differ here! What would you consider to be the most prestigious train running on the ECML in the summer of 1958? If I were asked that question, my reply would be the non-stop, 'The Elizabethan'. Next question, what were the two sets (ten cars) made-up of? The answer, PV Thompson stock - apart from the pair of BR Mk.1s to/from Aberdeen. Yes, there were occasional substitutes (a Gresley RF in one set after 1959/'60) but up until Deltic haulage (in 1962, when the train last ran), a fair bit of the Thompson PV stock was in it. What's really unusual about the Thompson PV car in the picture in question is that it's still in carmine/cream. By 1958, very rare. And, what about the Thompson PV car(s) in 'The Flying Scotsman'' or 'The Heart of Midlothian' or 'The Talisman'(s) of the same period? Thompson PV stock cascaded in 1958? What a come-down, to the 'lowly' status of being in the Lizzie, the Scotsman, the Heart and the Talisman(s). Not only that, during the winter months in the late-'50s, that same stock which ran only in the summer non-stop was used in both Scotsman rakes. So, in answer to your question, a Saturday (Seconds-only?) summer train to remote Skeggy is one of the last sets I'd expect to see a Thompson PV car in! The point is, in this case, the photograph reveals the extraordinary. Isn't that interesting? May I respectfully suggest that, in future, you look for evidence? Thanks for the comments on the B1 brackets. Regards, Tony. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrg1 Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, robertcwp said: Going back to the B1 at Peterborough, this is the booked formation for the Saturday 7.50 am King's Cross-Skegness in 1958: 0750-KGX-Skeg_Summer-Saturday-1958 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr The symbol by the two CK(3-3) indicates transverse corridor (ie Thompson) stock. By 1958, the pressure ventilated CKs were no longer needed in the prestige services. There was no CK in the Elizabethan and the Flying Scotsman was largely BR Standard stock, hence they would have been displaced elsewhere. As the side-door Gresley and BR Standard SKs had eight compartments, it probably didn't matter too much which ones were in the train. Many thanks-any information on Lincolnshire carriage workings is most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 9 hours ago, Headstock said: Afternoon Tony, I'm asking for people to work it out before they publish. There is nothing wrong with putting best - guessing in front of peer review for checking first. Out of choice, I don't publish much myself. That which I have, I have always put before peer review prior to publishing. If there is a problem, it can be corrected. After publishing, right or wrong, it's there for eternity. Good evening Andrew, I always ask others to proof what I've written before publication. Others whose knowledge and opinions I respect (I must send the B1 stuff to you as I write it). Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, jrg1 said: Many thanks-any information on Lincolnshire carriage workings is most welcome. I have several carriage working books from the 1950s that include Lincolnshire, or at least some of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 13 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I look forward to the "Book of Backgrounds" in which each caption discusses everything to be seen in the photo except the locomotive, which is to be regarded as a nuisance obscuring the view of some interesting feature. One might, at a pinch, give the locomotive number and date so the reader can, if they wish, look up full details of its condition elsewhere. Famously the view of the late Gordon Weddell, author of the four books on London & South Western carriages and wagons. At South Western Circle meetings he would chunter on about the locomotive blocking the interesting rolling stock. Bill 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 11 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: Changing the Subject somewhat, here are some pictures of my latest completed project. It’s a GCR bogie fish van built from a WSM kit. It was a bit of a struggle as it was made from thick brass which needed to be laminated together. It certainly tested my soldering iron’s power! Only a few of these made it through to nationalisation, and I believe they were relegated to parcels traffic by that stage. So I’ve finished it in LNER livery without fish branding and will use it in a mixed van train. I had to guess a bit (tut tut!) so I’ve probably made some mistakes. Any comments welcome. Andy I got brownie points for knowing what it was! Nice model. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Headstock said: Andy, Under such circumstances and if I was part of the peer review process, my advice to you would be not to publish but go away and do some more research. My advice would not be, ignore me and publish anyway! If you then did publish anyway, you will have ignored the peer review process, that's pretty damming if you cock up. Any mistakes that you may make as a result will be a long, long time in print and will be pointed out by hoards of Internet users for the next fifty years. Publishing and printing books is still a fairly expensive process and is not that easy to edit, make sure you get it right. I remember when Steve Banks came under a great deal of pressure to best - guess the carriage workings of the GE section for LNER PT&F, all for the sake of completeness and in fact not relevant to the format of the book anyway. Thankfully, he was brave enough to stand up and say no, the information is not available to give an accurate account . He also recognized that once in print, even if a statement was qualified as opinion or guesstimate, it had a very high likelihood as been taken as fact. Books have a very long lifetime compared to Internet boards. Once wrong information is out there in print, ten or twenty years from now, long after the authors death, it can still have a negative impact or be mocked for an extended period of time. P.s. your GC bogie van has scrubbed up rather well, did peer review have an effect? Hmm.............. Without going over too much old ground, all I can say is that my copy of the book (which I think you mean) has probably got more of my scribblings in the margins than most of my other books on carriages/carriage workings put together. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 14 hours ago, Tony Wright said: With respect Neil, Don't you mean the radius rod? The eccentric rod's position never moves, because the expansion link is a fixed pivot (or that's my understanding). Regards, Tony. Indeed I do, sorry - brain wasn't engaged just then. But she is linked up! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 7, 2019 Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 minute ago, New Haven Neil said: Indeed I do, sorry - brain wasn't engaged just then. But she is linked up! Thanks for that, Neil, However, with the pivot in the radius rod being so low, it still looks like (or very near to) full forward gear to me. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, bbishop said: Famously the view of the late Gordon Weddell, author of the four books on London & South Western carriages and wagons. At South Western Circle meetings he would chunter on about the locomotive blocking the interesting rolling stock. Bill Being a coaching stock fanatic, I tend to agree. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2019 A Japanese Rail Shinkansen is pictured here going very fast in Japan. Note Mount Fuji in the background. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 But what I really want to know about is that fencing in the foreground. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Thanks for that, Neil, However, with the pivot in the radius rod being so low, it still looks like (or very near to) full forward gear to me. Regards, Tony. Again I have to disagree Tony, the radius rod is very close to the pivot of the expansion link. You can see the amount of the expansion link that is visible below the die block. I have tried to highlight that here but I'm no computer whizz! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Barry Ten said: A Japanese Rail Shinkansen is pictured here going very fast in Japan. Note Mount Fuji in the background. When I was in Japan (some years back now) I managed a ride on the original series O shinkansen as well as the double decker types: 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Work and various other things have limited my activity on this site recently, but I note with interest the prospect of books on B1s. Although there have been some, it would be good to have more, especially ones that point out the variations and provide livery details. There were 410 of them (albeit one didn't last long and the maximum in stock was 409). That is more than the combined total of GWR Halls, Modified Halls and the prototype Hall (total 330 - like B1s, one was lost before the last had been built). B1s seemed to get all over the place. I have a particular interest in their workings with 'foreign' stock, or on other regions, or both, as well as on the GC, which is another area of interest. Here are a few photos from my collection: 1178 at a still unknown location: 1178_unknown by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61078 on the GC with GWR-design stock: 61078_nrBelgrave-Birstall_c1949 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61156 at Nottingham Victoria with no emblem on the tender: 61156_Nott-Vic by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61145 at Swindon: 61145_Swindon_c1953 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61311 at Kennington Junction, Oxford: 61311_Kennington_18-5-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61169 at Bristol Temple Meads: 61169_BristolTM by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 61173 on the Marton Line (Kirkham-Blackpool South direct): 61173_Weeton_7-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2019 Does anyone know why there is so little carriage working information for the GE section? My interest is in the late 30s and whilst I have managed to find a 1940 WTT that's pretty much it - it's a timetable which is most useful but carries little information (as expected) on the actual make-up of the trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Bucoops said: Does anyone know why there is so little carriage working information for the GE section? My interest is in the late 30s and whilst I have managed to find a 1940 WTT that's pretty much it - it's a timetable which is most useful but carries little information (as expected) on the actual make-up of the trains. No. The only pre-war LNER-era GE section items I have seen were two small booklets in connection with altered workings for the Silver Jubilee of King George V in 1935. Unfortunately, there is no key to the abbreviations: Cambridge Line Colchester Line I don't think the Great Eastern Railway Society has any either. EDIT: found another one - 1931 country branch workings I have some from the 1950s, as does the GERS. Edited December 7, 2019 by robertcwp Clarification. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: because he's in the foreground, we're told a 'railwayman crosses the tracks' I'll add that to my list of pet hates - statements of the bleeding obvious. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, robertcwp said: Being a coaching stock fanatic, I tend to agree. I view locos as things you use so that you do not leave a sweaty finger print pushing coaches and wagons around. Craig W 4 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted December 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2019 1 hour ago, bbishop said: I got brownie points for knowing what it was! Nice model. Bill Extra brownie points because it wasn’t finished when you saw it and had no letters or numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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