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Wright writes.....


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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'As an example, the likes of the PV Thompson had long since been cascaded from their original status, were (sic) else would you expect to see such carriages?'

 

Andrew,

 

I really must beg to differ here!

 

What would you consider to be the most prestigious train running on the ECML in the summer of 1958? If I were asked that question, my reply would be the non-stop, 'The Elizabethan'. 

 

Next question, what were the two sets (ten cars) made-up of? The answer, PV Thompson stock - apart from the pair of BR Mk.1s to/from Aberdeen. Yes, there were occasional substitutes (a Gresley RF in one set after 1959/'60) but up until Deltic haulage (in 1962, when the train last ran), a fair bit of the Thompson PV stock was in it. 

 

What's really unusual about the Thompson PV car in the picture in question is that it's still in carmine/cream. By 1958, very rare.

 

And, what about the Thompson PV car(s) in 'The Flying Scotsman'' or 'The Heart of Midlothian'  or 'The Talisman'(s) of the same period? 

 

Thompson PV stock cascaded in 1958? What a come-down, to the 'lowly' status of being in the Lizzie, the Scotsman, the Heart and the Talisman(s). Not only that, during the winter months in the late-'50s, that same stock which ran only in the summer non-stop was used in both Scotsman rakes. 

 

So, in answer to your question, a Saturday (Seconds-only?) summer train to remote Skeggy is one of the last sets I'd expect to see a Thompson PV car in! The point is, in this case, the photograph reveals the extraordinary. Isn't that interesting? 

 

May I respectfully suggest that, in future, you look for evidence?

 

Thanks for the comments on the B1 brackets. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Evening Tony,

 

prestige trains, certainly not the Elizabethan by 1958. A favourite with railway and model railway fans and possibly the railways themselves but not passengers demanding a prestige service. Not always the most convenient timed service for the good and the great and it never stopped, or picked up, anywhere convenient for a significant number of the wealthy business class. As former flying Scotsman sets, the Elizabethan was originally equipped with a lot of items that might be associated with a prestige service, though those using the real prestige services may have regarded them as new fangled rot. As it turned out, these were dropped from the train one by one. By 1958, all that remained was a long tail of third class accommodation, one dedicated first class carriage, a bog standard Catering set, a brake composite for onward first class travel and a PV system that sometimes worked. Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.

 

By 1958 the Elizabethan was barley filling the first class seats in the PV FK. You would think that I would be shocked to see the same type of carriage, photographed running as a strengthener on the front of a Manchester Marylebone express in 1949?. No, why? Right from early BR days, it was a common sight to see these carriages used turn and turn about on more humble services. Other PV carriages turn up quite regularly and randomly in GC expresses throughout the fifties. Seeing one in the photograph of a non prestige working in 1958 is no surprise to me. Going back to contemporary reviews of the stock, as reported in the RO, the Railway magazine and even Harris, they are not exactly complimentary. Disappointing, is one of the nicer description I could find in comparison to the pre war stock. Spartan not prestige, outclassed by what went before.

 

I have mentioned in the past, that when I was growing up I lived next door to a man who, with his contemporary, always travelled on the real prestige services, built at that time for his class,wealth and social standing. The Sirs, The Lords, The Colonels, The Right Honourables, the Captains of industry. I am of course talking of the Pullmans. It would be seen as snobbery these days but these trains were literally built for different class, one were even money didn't necessarily buy you admittance to the inner sanctum, I can assure you that he would not have been seen dead on the Elizabethan. If you wanted to go to Scotland, apparently one of the sleepers, possibly the Night Scotsman was the special train for the civilised and well healed? He's ridding sky Pullmans these days so the last point remains a slightly faded.  'Your supposed to sleep going to Scotland, not stare out the bloody window,' was a phrase I recall him using in conjunction with travel to the Highlands.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Andrew,

 

I always ask others to proof what I've written before publication. Others whose knowledge and opinions I respect (I must send the B1 stuff to you as I write it). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I would be honoured. I'm glad your doing this book, it is about time that the B1's got there chance to shine.

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Hmm..............

 

Without going over too much old ground, all I can say is that my copy of the book (which I think you mean) has probably got more of my scribblings in the margins than most of my other books on carriages/carriage workings put together. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Not my bits I hope. With the exception of the caption on the Newcastle Bournemouth that was mangled by the publisher.

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Seeing the day of the B1 has at last cometh. In celebration, here's a couple of the great beasties. Observe copyright please.

 

61185 departing Marylebone on the SouthYorkshireman and 61163 reversing to pick up, or drop off a van, or vans in the bay platform at Leicester Central station

 

P.s. 61185 and 61163 have the little blinker style of lamp and the left hand side smokebox conduit, thus the smaller style of raised lamp brackets.

 

61185 copy.jpg

 

 

61163.jpg

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7 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I would be honoured. I'm glad your doing this book, it is about time that the B1's got there chance to shine.

 

 

Not my bits I hope. With the exception of the caption on the Newcastle Bournemouth that was mangled by the publisher.

Good morning Andrew, 

 

I don't know which bits you contributed to the book.

 

I suppose, being more of a loco man than a coach man, I was first drawn to the bloopers in that regard. Identifying a C2 as a C1 on p. 85 is a bit of a howler, especially as it's the one with inside cylinders. And, on p. 143 the picture of QUICKSILVER surely can't have been taken in 1935; it's got full-length buffers and the number is on the front.

 

Out of possible interest, and regarding B1s; in the same book (which does have merit, to be fair), would any modeller replicate the the condition of the electric conduit along the boiler of 61299 I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,

 

prestige trains, certainly not the Elizabethan by 1958. A favourite with railway and model railway fans and possibly the railways themselves but not passengers demanding a prestige service. Not always the most convenient timed service for the good and the great and it never stopped, or picked up, anywhere convenient for a significant number of the wealthy business class. As former flying Scotsman sets, the Elizabethan was originally equipped with a lot of items that might be associated with a prestige service, though those using the real prestige services may have regarded them as new fangled rot. As it turned out, these were dropped from the train one by one. By 1958, all that remained was a long tail of third class accommodation, one dedicated first class carriage, a bog standard Catering set, a brake composite for onward first class travel and a PV system that sometimes worked. Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.

 

By 1958 the Elizabethan was barley filling the first class seats in the PV FK. You would think that I would be shocked to see the same type of carriage, photographed running as a strengthener on the front of a Manchester Marylebone express in 1949?. No, why? Right from early BR days, it was a common sight to see these carriages used turn and turn about on more humble services. Other PV carriages turn up quite regularly and randomly in GC expresses throughout the fifties. Seeing one in the photograph of a non prestige working in 1958 is no surprise to me. Going back to contemporary reviews of the stock, as reported in the RO, the Railway magazine and even Harris, they are not exactly complimentary. Disappointing, is one of the nicer description I could find in comparison to the pre war stock. Spartan not prestige, outclassed by what went before.

 

I have mentioned in the past, that when I was growing up I lived next door to a man who, with his contemporary, always travelled on the real prestige services, built at that time for his class,wealth and social standing. The Sirs, The Lords, The Colonels, The Right Honourables, the Captains of industry. I am of course talking of the Pullmans. It would be seen as snobbery these days but these trains were literally built for different class, one were even money didn't necessarily buy you admittance to the inner sanctum, I can assure you that he would not have been seen dead on the Elizabethan. If you wanted to go to Scotland, apparently one of the sleepers, possibly the Night Scotsman was the special train for the civilised and well healed? He's ridding sky Pullmans these days so the last point remains a slightly faded.  'Your supposed to sleep going to Scotland, not stare out the bloody window,' was a phrase I recall him using in conjunction with travel to the Highlands.

Morning again, Andrew,

 

'Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.'

 

The longest non-stop run anywhere in the world? Ho hum. 

 

Granted, for those really loaded, the Pullmans offered prestige, but the non-stop certainly had some of it.

 

A friend of mine, whose father was (in part) responsible for the Haymarket A4s on the service said it was very well-regarded by passengers, and was usually well-filled. 

 

And, how many other 'prestige' services had carriages with compartments reserved just for ladies?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Prestige is an interesting concept: it is a carefully marketed perception that varies according to the target market.

 

That is why you had both Pullman services and named trains like the Elisabethan, they will be regarded as being prestigious or not depending on your demographic and what you might therefore regard as mundane in comparison. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

I view locos as things you use so that you do not leave a sweaty finger print pushing coaches and wagons around.

 

 

I tend to model SR/BR EMUs - you don't need locos or sweaty fingers to make them move around.

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Morning again, Andrew,

 

'Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.'

 

The longest non-stop run anywhere in the world? Ho hum. 

 

Granted, for those really loaded, the Pullmans offered prestige, but the non-stop certainly had some of it.

 

A friend of mine, whose father was (in part) responsible for the Haymarket A4s on the service said it was very well-regarded by passengers, and was usually well-filled. 

 

And, how many other 'prestige' services had carriages with compartments reserved just for ladies?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

All the hauled non-gangway trains from Kings Cross and all the 4 car outer suburban EMUs from Liverpool Street and Frenchurch Street. The compartment next to the brake van was "Ladies Only". That was until the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. 

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew, 

 

I don't know which bits you contributed to the book.

 

I suppose, being more of a loco man than a coach man, I was first drawn to the bloopers in that regard. Identifying a C2 as a C1 on p. 85 is a bit of a howler, especially as it's the one with inside cylinders. And, on p. 143 the picture of QUICKSILVER surely can't have been taken in 1935; it's got full-length buffers and the number is on the front.

 

Out of possible interest, and regarding B1s; in the same book (which does have merit, to be fair), would any modeller replicate the the condition of the electric conduit along the boiler of 61299 I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

A critique of the book was written jointly by several people back in 2013 and ran to 13 pages covering various errors and other issues with the text and captions. I contributed four pages out of that, mainly on errors in the photo captions. I don't own the copyright to the notes so can't publish. Higher authorities than me decided not to publish it in the journal it was originally intended for. My review for the LNER Society is reproduced somewhere in this thread. It was a worthwhile book but could have been a lot better, even given the limitations in available material. No sign of the long-promised second volume, which seems to have disappeared from the publisher's listings of forthcoming titles.

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11 hours ago, Headstock said:

Seeing the day of the B1 has at last cometh. In celebration, here's a couple of the great beasties. Observe copyright please.

 

61185 departing Marylebone on the SouthYorkshireman and 61163 reversing to pick up, or drop off a van, or vans in the bay platform at Leicester Central station

 

P.s. 61185 and 61163 have the little blinker style of lamp and the left hand side smokebox conduit, thus the smaller style of raised lamp brackets.

 

61185 copy.jpg

 

 

61163.jpg

Superb photo of the South Yorkshireman leaving Marylebone. Do you have a date  for it, please?

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13 hours ago, robertcwp said:

No. The only pre-war LNER-era GE section items I have seen were two small booklets in connection with altered workings for the Silver Jubilee of King George V in 1935. Unfortunately, there is no key to the abbreviations:

 

Cambridge Line

Colchester Line

 

I don't think the Great Eastern Railway Society has any either.

 

EDIT: found another one - 1931 country branch workings

 

I have some from the 1950s, as does the GERS.

 

Hi Robert,

 

Thank you so much :) I guess the records from that section weren't as well curated? Someone somewhere must have something :)

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew, 

 

I don't know which bits you contributed to the book.

 

I suppose, being more of a loco man than a coach man, I was first drawn to the bloopers in that regard. Identifying a C2 as a C1 on p. 85 is a bit of a howler, especially as it's the one with inside cylinders. And, on p. 143 the picture of QUICKSILVER surely can't have been taken in 1935; it's got full-length buffers and the number is on the front.

 

Out of possible interest, and regarding B1s; in the same book (which does have merit, to be fair), would any modeller replicate the the condition of the electric conduit along the boiler of 61299 I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Good Afternoon Tony,


The caption of 61299 on the Bournemouth was the one mangled by the publisher. There were two photo choices, the description of the train refers to the photograph that was not used. Here's one for everyone to pencil in, The catering in the photo is actually a Maunsell first class Restaurant car and not the Kitchen Buffet conversion as stated, The open carriage running with the RF is an open third and not the conversion to composite dining saloon as stated in the photo. The good news for the RTR crowd is that the open third in the photo is the type offered by Hornby, as is the Restaurant car. The dining saloon conversion was a different dia of open third all together. The Buffet car and dining saloon were converted for cross country workings in 1947, both have survived into preservation and are the only Maunsell catering carriages in existence. Both feature in my model of the train built for LSGC.


The Bournemouth York, as featured in the photo and as running up until and including 1951 can be now modelled as a RTR train, with the following alterations. Hornby do not produce the livery that the train was running in during the late 40's and early 50's, so a repaint would be required. The composites would require converting to the type used in cross country workings. This is quite easy as all the Southern did was convert a first class compartment into a third class compartment. This was achieved by adding internal partitions to replicate the smaller internal dimensions of the standard  third class compartments. This was done to match the seating arrangements of the LMS or LNER trains that shared the workings of cross country services to the North.


61299 was a rather interesting member of the class from a Leicestercentric point of view. As E1299, it and sister locomotive E1298, were allocated to Leicester as brand new locomotives. The locomotives were outshopped in the new British Railways version of LNER green. Both actually had a full set of working electric lights, the first at the depot! A model of E1298 is featured on LSGC. With regard to the conduit wiggle as seen in the photo of 61299. The conduit is actually in two parts and joins together just forwards of the third boiler band. It is a natural point of weakness that is susceptible to damage. A lot of the wiggles in pipe runs down the length of the boiler on B1 locomotives originate in this area. Yes, I would model it in the way seen in the photo.

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Morning again, Andrew,

 

'Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.'

 

The longest non-stop run anywhere in the world? Ho hum. 

 

Granted, for those really loaded, the Pullmans offered prestige, but the non-stop certainly had some of it.

 

A friend of mine, whose father was (in part) responsible for the Haymarket A4s on the service said it was very well-regarded by passengers, and was usually well-filled. 

 

And, how many other 'prestige' services had carriages with compartments reserved just for ladies?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

If I was writing for publication I would provide a more balanced viewpoint, Perhaps not the most prestigious service but probably the flagship service. The point that you make about compartments for women is an interesting one. Given the rampant sexism of the times in all areas of life, one wonders what the proportion of women was as passengers on the Pullman services.

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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Superb photo of the South Yorkshireman leaving Marylebone. Do you have a date  for it, please?

 

I've had the photo so long, I cant remember. It has to be 1949, 1950 at the latest. The lack of semi FO (that was a fat cats club car if ever there was one) in the formation is intersting from a dating perspective. Do you have any information on 61311 in your photo at Kennington, such as direction of travel, time of day. I sort of know what the train might be but more info is required.

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2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

A critique of the book was written jointly by several people back in 2013 and ran to 13 pages covering various errors and other issues with the text and captions. I contributed four pages out of that, mainly on errors in the photo captions. I don't own the copyright to the notes so can't publish. Higher authorities than me decided not to publish it in the journal it was originally intended for. My review for the LNER Society is reproduced somewhere in this thread. It was a worthwhile book but could have been a lot better, even given the limitations in available material. No sign of the long-promised second volume, which seems to have disappeared from the publisher's listings of forthcoming titles.

 

I haven't read the critique of the book and to be honest I probably haven't read the whole book, just my bits (I jest). I wasn't impressed by the criticism that I did here, a lot of it seemed personal and petty, the lack of GE content seemed a big point for some people, my thoughts is that it complete missed the point. A trawl around each individual area of the LNER would bored the reader to death. It would have repeated the same information over and over region by region. It would have been nice to have more examples from the GE but it wouldn't have dramatically changed the book.

 

My own general thoughts on the book is that it gets the how, the why and the wherefore right, that is probably its single most important contribution. Most stuff written on the subject has little understanding or interest in this aspect, it just becomes a boring list of facts without context or meaning. It would be so easy to make this the most boring book ever written, it succeeds in that it is not. I like that the book has context and meaning, though there are apparently issues with some of the facts. I am led to believe that these are more in the nature of fractional mistakes, not earth shattering revelations. To be fair, I'm in a privileged position with regards to access to information and most importantly interpretation on the subject, I don't need the book, therefore I'm less distracted by it.

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16 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I'm in a privileged position with regards to access to information and most importantly interpretation on the subject, I don't need the book, therefore I'm less distracted by it.

 

With that privilege perhaps comes a responsibility to ensure that that information becomes more widely accessible.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

I've had the photo so long, I cant remember. It has to be 1949, 1950 at the latest. The lack of semi FO (that was a fat cats club car if ever there was one) in the formation is intersting from a dating perspective. Do you have any information on 61311 in your photo at Kennington, such as direction of travel, time of day. I sort of know what the train might be but more info is required.

61311 is heading north and given the angle of the sun, it must be well into the evening as the line runs almost south-north at that point. I suspect it is one of the Swindon-York trains. The photo was dated 18 May 1951 so the daylight hours would have been long.

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28 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I haven't read the critique of the book and to be honest I probably haven't read the whole book, just my bits (I jest). I wasn't impressed by the criticism that I did here, a lot of it seemed personal and petty, the lack of GE content seemed a big point for some people, my thoughts is that it complete missed the point. A trawl around each individual area of the LNER would bored the reader to death. It would have repeated the same information over and over region by region. It would have been nice to have more examples from the GE but it wouldn't have dramatically changed the book.

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

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6 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

61311 is heading north and given the angle of the sun, it must be well into the evening as the line runs almost south-north at that point. I suspect it is one of the Swindon-York trains. The photo was dated 18 May 1951 so the daylight hours would have been long.

 

Thanks Robert,


that's what I was thinking, kind of ironic that the most historically interesting and rare photographs of everyday workings, wouldn't even be considered for publication due to indifferent quality. A bias in the fossil record.


There looks to be two strengtheners, one an ex NER non gangway third, what do you make of the first carriage behind the ex GWR BG, Gresley/Thompson steel panelled open third or of GWR design?

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18 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

 

You honestly believe that the rest of the informaion is mostly irrelevant to the GE section, I'm stunned.

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1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

 

Having recovered. The book will tell you what the LNER's policy was (not much changed under BR for the first decade) on the formatting of passenger trains and the creation of basic sets, something that was applicable to all areas of the LNER. Nothing has come to light to suggest that the GE was any different from the GC section, or the NE or GN sections (I use abbreviated terms for clarity) Armed with that information, you should be able to start trawling through photographs in your area and era of interest and start to identify the patterns that are present.

 

On photographs, I would advise looking beyond books, They tend to have lots of nice images of summer Saturdays workings that don't always give you what you are looking for, that would be the typical and the everyday. Next time that you visit an exhibition, it would be a good idear to spend some time going through the photographs on the photo stand. This is a really good place to start. Have an idear of what you are looking for before you go, that way you can manage your time more effectively. Don't get to hung up on short Gresley carriages, they were a small drop in the ocean even on the GE, and were dispersed somewhat after nationalisation. Don't forget that 60% of the LNER's carriage fleet was of pre grouping design. Without delving into too much detail, lots of GER carriages will always sell a GER layout even if it be set in the LNER or BR period. There are plenty of people who can help you with the identification of trains, Wright writes is not a bad place to start in that respect.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Robert,


that's what I was thinking, kind of ironic that the most historically interesting and rare photographs of everyday workings, wouldn't even be considered for publication due to indifferent quality. A bias in the fossil record.


There looks to be two strengtheners, one an ex NER non gangway third, what do you make of the first carriage behind the ex GWR BG, Gresley/Thompson steel panelled open third or of GWR design?

I shall do a larger version focusing on the stock later.

 

In the meantime, if this link works, it will go to the 40 original images in my collection that were taken around Kennington Junction, Oxford, which show engines and stock from all of the Big Four, plus BR.

 

No publisher would put all 40 in a book but this must have been a great place to watch the trains go by. 

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