Lecorbusier Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, grahame said: For me functional and purposeful is exciting. And for me the class 68 has more style than the Wainwright which I don't find elegant. With artistry and style being a very personal and emotive thing I don't think it's a mater of one locos aesthetic design winning out. So there is comparison in the looks department. Likewise I am far from convinced that it is a case of either/or. We all have our preferences. Personally I think the class 68 has merit .... though on the other hand I think one could argue there is a consensus beyond the bounds of this thread that the Wainwright is indeed elegant (whether it is to your taste or not). I have a particular liking for the style and elegance of Johnson's slim boilered locos (as a set from 0-6-0 tanks through to the express singles) ... which I think are very elegant and well conceived as pieces of aesthetic design enhanced by a wonderful and harmonised colour and lining scheme (not so fond of the class 68 on the livery front). However that doesn't preclude me seeing the merit of the more powerful stance and lines of the later compound. Ditto for Gresley's masterpieces or indeed a King or Castle class. Nor does it preclude me having a soft spot for the Deltics and indeed the 125s. It gets more difficult where the contemporary scene is concerned as time and a retrospective eye can be cruel (as indeed it was to a fair number of steam designs if we are talking about pure aesthetics. Edited December 13, 2019 by Lecorbusier 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, t-b-g said: If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks. Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast! Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time. There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality. I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none! I quite like the look of the 68, but they look more at home dragging nuclear flasks around IMHO, but your description did strike a chord where the TPE driving trailer is concerned. As for purposeful, though, I tend to prefer Mr Urie's revisions of Mr Drummond's 4-4-0s to the originals. If you want really ugly, look to the latter's 4-6-0s, before or after superheating was added.... They make a Q1 look pretty. D Class? Beautiful or just a heavily decorated piece of Victoriana? The hardware is a little too delicate looking for my personal taste and the livery is far too prissy for anything that had to work hard for a living. For functional elegance, a shiny black, simply lined LNWR George the Fifth or Prince of Wales would be much more to my liking. A livery later applied to the D Class by BR, of course, but they did some rather peculiar things with the lining IMHO. John Edited December 13, 2019 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 hours ago, t-b-g said: If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks. Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast! Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time. There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality. I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none! 'Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!' I'm inclined to agree, Tony, Mind you, as someone else has observed, the DVT is worse.................... Different times, different trainspotters! I think the Mk.4 DVTs have a more-purposeful look (apologies for the 'arty-farty' shot). Mind you, for those who like Class 68s, York's a good place to see them. Along with the one already shown, there were three more present in half an hour. There was a fair bit of variety during the hour I spent at York Station waiting for my train home. An HST; not long for the ECML now. And a Class 60. This was something I very rarely saw at York Station during my 'spotting days there (obviously not a Class 60 diesel) - a freight going through the main part. They used to use the avoiding lines, and were often missed! Looking at these images above, nostalgia prevents me from being objective, I suppose. Especially when York Station used to see the likes of these...........................! Ah, a long time ago (when there was a Labour Government!). With all the recent comments about aesthetics, it matters not how well-designed or how well-applied a livery is. Once the moronic vandals have a go, it's just depressing. What a blight on our whole environment this sort of thing is. Regards, Tony. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Never mind the aesthetics - it's a proper train, with a loco and coaches. Be thankful for that. That it might be, John, But it's not what has gone before............................! Regards, Tony. 15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2019 I quite like the 68s. Interesting shapes, no doubt calculated by computer. Still not a patch on Gresley's pacifics and other creations though. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 York - I remember a non stop Deltic hauled express passing through on the now long gone centre roads !! Around 1970(ish). Certainly aroused all those present on theplatforms, enthusiasts or not !! Regarding aesthetics of steam locos I recommend the excellent book, J.G.Robinson - A Lifetime's Work by David Jackson. More or less a biography outlining the very interesting career and achievements of this great engineer, and his involvement / friendship / influence by S W Johnson of the Midland Railway. One of my favourite books. Robinson was known to state that the Chimney was one of the most important features of any locomotive, and he designed some lovely locos for the Great Central railway. A man from another age - I wonder what he would have thought of the noisy 68's with their silly names !!!! Brit15 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Looking at the GC4-4-0 at the top of the previous page, this is an example of where 3D printing can produce a shape that conventional machining cannot. I wonder how long it will be before the cost of metal printing drops to the point when limited runs of metal bodied locos and other rolling stock become feasible. I know 'plastic' printing is available today but metal does have a certain presence that is very difficult to achieve with plastic but more importantly a metal bodied loco should be able to pull 13/14 kit built coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted December 13, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 59 minutes ago, APOLLO said: York - I remember a non stop Deltic hauled express passing through on the now long gone centre roads !! Around 1970(ish). Certainly aroused all those present on theplatforms, enthusiasts or not !! Regarding aesthetics of steam locos I recommend the excellent book, J.G.Robinson - A Lifetime's Work by David Jackson. More or less a biography outlining the very interesting career and achievements of this great engineer, and his involvement / friendship / influence by S W Johnson of the Midland Railway. One of my favourite books. Robinson was known to state that the Chimney was one of the most important features of any locomotive, and he designed some lovely locos for the Great Central railway. A man from another age - I wonder what he would have thought of the noisy 68's with their silly names !!!! Brit15 'I wonder what he would have thought of the noisy 68's with their silly names !!!!' Noisy the 68s might be, but I'm not sure I agree with your view of them as having 'silly names'. SUPERB has a ring about it. Don't forget it was a warship name on both a ship and a WR hydraulic. And COURAGEOUS was considered suitable to adorn a Jubilee (45711). And what about ENTERPRISE? Definitely good enough to be carried by an A3, coincidentally seen at York, but almost 60 years earlier. And at Stoke Summit. As an aside, what a great train, including a Gresley articulated steel twin, and the first car fresh from shops. And also seen when she was on the ex-GC, at Neasden. I certainly don't think my model of her has a silly name (though some of the other A3 names are debatable!). Which names carried by the 68s do you consider silly? OXFORD FLYER? BRUTUS? FELIX? Though I think the class is ugly, credit where credit's due with regard to most of the names in my view. The likes of RAPID, VALIANT, VIGILANT, LORD PRESIDENT, BLACK DOUGLAS among others for instance. Names with real tradition in my opinion. Regards, Tony. 14 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2019 On the subject of aesthetics, I will be sorry to see the end of the 91's. In profile they always looked to me as if they were straining at the leash to go forward fast. Jamie 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) Perhaps I was a bit too criticising when I said the 69's have silly names - silly me - I stand corrected !!!!!!!!! (The one I saw, my first, was "Splendid" ) Anyway, loco hauled trains are a bit of a reprieve in our overall DMU / EMU rail scene. I plan to have a ride on one soon. My thoughts, nice modern livery. Sides / roof / cab back / windscreen Ok - BUT the "cut off" flat front bit is the look spoiler, as are the odd shaped buffers. Pity she was not made at Doncaster, Derby or Crewe (Swindon wouldn't have dared to make this !!) Brit15 Edited December 13, 2019 by APOLLO typo 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted December 13, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 May I please thank all those who've commented most-generously with their praise for my piece on Little Bytham in the latest RM, either on here, by email or by word of mouth? It really is immensely-gratifying, and a testament to the crack team who built it. Out of possible interest, I'm showing some of the shots that ended up on 'the cutting room floor' so to speak. Some weren't used because of space restrictions and others because they were taken before much of the detail was in place. It was decided not to show those with the MR/M&GNR bridge in, because a proper one is being built. I hope an article on this will appear in a future RM. Anyway............... It's probable that some have been seen already on here, but the thread is now so long........................... 29 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2019 I do really like that last shot, it appears to be the most realistic of the lot to me. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 As noted above the Class 68 names have been used as warship names, even though they lack the defining HMS prefix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 The 68 names are excellent , as to the look of them , well Star Wars names would have been more appropriatte, Wooky, Bobba Fett , Daft Ada etc . What is the point of the Buffer shape !! A proper Enterprise in its by far best colour. 5 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, APOLLO said: Perhaps I was a bit too criticising when I said the 69's have silly names - silly me - I stand corrected !!!!!!!!! (The one I saw, my first, was "Splendid" ) Anyway, loco hauled trains are a bit of a reprieve in our overall DMU / EMU rail scene. I plan to have a ride on one soon. My thoughts, nice modern livery. Sides / roof / cab back / windscreen Ok - BUT the "cut off" flat front bit is the look spoiler, as are the odd shaped buffers. Pity she was not made at Doncaster, Derby or Crewe (Swindon wouldn't have dared to make this !!) Brit15 I see them quite regularly out of Marylebone in what I find a much nicer livery .... I have always quite liked them - its nice to have a separate loco. The buffers are much less obvious when viewed from the platform. Edited December 13, 2019 by Lecorbusier 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2019 At least 68011 has some lovely old fashioned lamps on the roof! All such likes and dislikes have to be based purely on personal choice. Nobody can ever really say that a GCR 4-4-0 looks better than a Class 68. We can only ever say that we as individuals prefer one to the other. Even if 99 people prefer one and 1 person likes the other, it proves nothing other than 99 people have similar tastes and 1 has different tastes. I will say that the 68 in two tone grey livery looks, to my eyes, much better than the ones at York with all the odd diagonal stripes and multiple colours. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 There are times where the 68's do not look so good! Mike Wiltshire 4 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Here's a few pics of two class 68s that I took in 2017: I snapped them just outside the nuclear flask loading site at Lydd. Someone came out of the hut in the compound and asked if I wanted them moved for a better view to photograph them but I was in a rush with some friends in the car on the way to see the Denge sound mirrors. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffer Davies Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 On 12/12/2019 at 08:06, micklner said: The only problem I can see using Steel is corrosion if it becomes damp/wet at any time . It is also harder to bend and cut. Hi Mick, Apologies for a somewhat late reply. This is the first time I've been on RM Web since posting my comment. I only offer the use of steel for hand rails as a third option that some will not previously have considered. I particularly like steel because it is far more resistant to accidental damage. This is important to me because my stock is primarily built for exhibiting and so is constantly being packed and unpacked. Whilst I would agree that logically steel is harder to bend and cut, at 0.4mm thickness it is still easily worked and I've personally never given it a second thought even when bending up hand rails for Great Western locomotives which are not the simplest to make at the best of times. As to concerns with regards rust there are many other components already utilised by railway modellers which are made of steel so you will already know if rust is a problem for your personal situation. In the end it's a personal choice. Regards, Frank 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Tony Wright said: 'I wonder what he would have thought of the noisy 68's with their silly names !!!!' Noisy the 68s might be, but I'm not sure I agree with your view of them as having 'silly names'. SUPERB has a ring about it. Don't forget it was a warship name on both a ship and a WR hydraulic. And COURAGEOUS was considered suitable to adorn a Jubilee (45711). And what about ENTERPRISE? Definitely good enough to be carried by an A3, coincidentally seen at York, but almost 60 years earlier. And at Stoke Summit. As an aside, what a great train, including a Gresley articulated steel twin, and the first car fresh from shops. And also seen when she was on the ex-GC, at Neasden. I certainly don't think my model of her has a silly name (though some of the other A3 names are debatable!). Which names carried by the 68s do you consider silly? OXFORD FLYER? BRUTUS? FELIX? Though I think the class is ugly, credit where credit's due with regard to most of the names in my view. The likes of RAPID, VALIANT, VIGILANT, LORD PRESIDENT, BLACK DOUGLAS among others for instance. Names with real tradition in my opinion. Regards, Tony. Those top 2 are silly on a 68, much better on a 50 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted December 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 hours ago, APOLLO said: York - I remember a non stop Deltic hauled express passing through on the now long gone centre roads !! I remember that too. The problem was, I thought it was going to stop so that I could get on and go home to Edinburgh. After it had gone through I checked the timetable again and found that it didn't stop on Saturdays... The only thing to do was to return to the bar at the Royal Station Hotel for an hour or so. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, micklner said: The 68 names are excellent , as to the look of them , well Star Wars names would have been more appropriatte, Wooky, Bobba Fett , Daft Ada etc . What is the point of the Buffer shape !! A proper Enterprise in its by far best colour. Very pretty, Mick, 'A proper Enterprise in its by far best colour.' But nowhere near in its best condition, most-economical, most-powerful and most-reliable! Those triumphs came when she was an A3, had a double chimney, was painted 'proper' green and had German blinkers! Your model shows her as an original A1, with short-travel valves and low boiler pressure. Not so good, but, as I say, pretty. And what on Earth has happened to that return crank? If you tried to run it, it would surely jam up. At least it's one way of assuring that the back end of the eccentric rod is lower than the front. Hornby, I assume? Regards, Tony. Edited December 13, 2019 by Tony Wright to clarify a point 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manna Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 G'Day Folks Does this remind you of Darth Vaders helmet !! manna Picture borrowed from the last page. 2 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 (edited) Unusually for me I actually like the look of the class 68, not that I would purchase one. They appear utilitarian, the fronts do look a bit like a warthog that has hit a wall. But for some reason they have grown on me. Manna above does have the design cue right the designer liked darth Vader' helmet too much. On the the subject of buffers I have been recently reading through a heap of NERA mags I was given. One photo of oval buffers shows them all at quite jointy angles! Edited December 14, 2019 by DougN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 14, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 14, 2019 Purely in terms of livery and glorious appearance, the first A1s, turned out in GNR livery with the tall fittings and cab are the pinnacle for me. The dark green edging just adds something special. One of those on a rake of clerestory 12 wheelers is about as magnificent a sight as is possible on our railways. I would never get around to building one as I have too many others that I would like to have that are higher priority but when Hornby produced that version, I put my hand into the wallet for a rare RTR purchase. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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