Wright writes.....

[mdvle]

On 12/12/2019 at 09:30, Tony Wright said:

I don't think it costs thousands to produce a chimney out in China, or anywhere else. 

 

To fit, say, a double chimney on an RTR V2 (in place of a single one) would require (I'm guessing here, I admit) at least a new smokebox moulding or even a whole new boiler! It's a question of if the chimney is separately-fitted, or not.

 

Rapido Trains made a mistake in tooling up their model of the American RS11, unfortunately caught when someone viewing photos of the EP sample asked if the cab was too high - it turned out it was.

 

Rapido ended up fixing the issue, and while they didn't explicitly state it I would guess it involved tooling an entirely new cab.  In a subsequent newsletter (*) they stated fixing the cab cost $15000 (£11300 today).

 

So £6000 for a chimney wouldn't surprise me.  Tooling molds for injection plastic is expensive, an expense kit manufacturers don't have because they aren't designing stuff for lifetime production runs in the many thousands.

 

 

* - https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-109---New-freight-cars--new-RS-11-order-date--and-we-re-hiring-.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=g-SzXvHaIjQ

[mdvle]

On 12/12/2019 at 10:43, t-b-g said:

I know little about commercial manufacturing but it would be interesting to know just how a figure like that £6000 is arrived at. It is probably a business sensitive matter not for public discussion but if you take that as the cost of a single component and then look at how many components there are in a loco, which may be a limited edition of, say, 500 units, the maths just don't seem right to me.

 

Don't think you will find many RTR models that only do 500 units, because as you say the numbers get difficult.  500 sounds more like a particular livery variation (many factories seem to, based on online forum comments, want a minimum of about 500 models per livery variation given the time/cost of setting up for each livery at the paint and pad printing stages).

 

You also of course can do a sub variation of a model with only 500 units through using slides and other things to allow molds to be used for many different versions of the same model, which means while your particular model may only do 500 its costs are spread out over the entire class.  The example here would be the new Class 37 model, where the tooling will presumably allow for the various sub-classes to be made from the same tooling instead of tooling up each subclass separately.

[Michael Edge]

9 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

There are times where the 68's do not look so good!

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Enthusiasts of heavy weathering please note - you can still read the loco number!

[Paul Cram]

14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!'

 

I'm inclined to agree, Tony,

 

Mind you, as someone else has observed, the DVT is worse....................

 

 

Different times, different trainspotters!

 

 

 

I t

 

Probably just the same ones only they are now older

[Dunsignalling]

It seems to have been common practice over the last couple of decades, that those who devise rolling stock liveries ensure no colour interface be permitted to coincide with any panel line on the bodywork. The TPE Class 68 amply demonstrates "no change", though perhaps GWR's treatment of their Class 800s represents a lurch to the other extreme. 

 

To my mind, the "Warthog effect" only afflicts the Class 68 finished in TPE livery which, in my (reconsidered) opinion does it no favours. Unexpectedly, the yellow panels incorporated in the DRS blue and Chiltern grey liveries seem to minimise the visual impact of the blunted end. The TPE treatment divides it up which (also unexpectedly) accentuates its abbreviated shape.

 

The end of the Mk5 driving trailer is just a mess. Nobody seems to have considered how the bodywork and underframe should interface. The former appears to have been designed separately and simply had bits cut away to make it fit over the latter.

 

All that said, I still consider the TPE colour scheme to be the lesser of two evils (compared to GWR Drab) on anything with a fully pointy nose.

 

John

Edited December 14, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Chamby]

50 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Enthusiasts of heavy weathering please note - you can still read the loco number!

 

But only because someone has wiped that bit clean... presumably it would have been covered over prior to that!   It is also ‘weathered’ in that muddy colour so favoured by the RTR manufacturers.

 

Looks like it might have been working on the rail-head treatment train?

 

At least a class 68 has a bit more shape to it than the extruded class 67... they really do take utilitarian to the extreme!

[Bucoops]

8 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

But only because someone has wiped that bit clean... presumably it would have been covered over prior to that!   It is also ‘weathered’ in that muddy colour so favoured by the RTR manufacturers.

 

Looks like it might have been working on the rail-head treatment train?

 

At least a class 68 has a bit more shape to it than the extruded class 67... they really do take utilitarian to the extreme!

 

I believe the Ju52 was extensively used in the Spanish civil war? Perhaps that was the inspiration?

[Coach bogie]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

 

But only because someone has wiped that bit clean... presumably it would have been covered over prior to that!   It is also ‘weathered’ in that muddy colour so favoured by the RTR manufacturers.

 

Looks like it might have been working on the rail-head treatment train?

 

At least a class 68 has a bit more shape to it than the extruded class 67... they really do take utilitarian to the extreme!

It was. Super power for two container flats. State of the art locomotives alongside semaphore signals. Whats not to love?

 

We also get the 88 electrics. Look the same from a distance - running diesel gets very confusing. Super power again on one wagon or is it because they are too scared to go out to Hartlepool on their own?

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited December 14, 2019 by Coach bogie

[Jol Wilkinson]

9 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Rapido Trains made a mistake in tooling up their model of the American RS11, unfortunately caught when someone viewing photos of the EP sample asked if the cab was too high - it turned out it was.

 

Rapido ended up fixing the issue, and while they didn't explicitly state it I would guess it involved tooling an entirely new cab.  In a subsequent newsletter (*) they stated fixing the cab cost $15000 (£11300 today).

 

So £6000 for a chimney wouldn't surprise me.  Tooling molds for injection plastic is expensive, an expense kit manufacturers don't have because they aren't designing stuff for lifetime production runs in the many thousands.

 

 

* - https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-109---New-freight-cars--new-RS-11-order-date--and-we-re-hiring-.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=g-SzXvHaIjQ

The difference is that kit makers design things to use different processes for low volume but repeatable batch production. However, the cost of research and development, tooling, etc. is still significant on a per unit basis, which is why kits are often as or more expensive than mass produced RTR products. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

 

But only because someone has wiped that bit clean... presumably it would have been covered over prior to that!   It is also ‘weathered’ in that muddy colour so favoured by the RTR manufacturers.

 

Looks like it might have been working on the rail-head treatment train?

 

At least a class 68 has a bit more shape to it than the extruded class 67... they really do take utilitarian to the extreme!

Good morning Phil,

 

The rail-head treatment train certainly tends to result in 'extreme' weathering...............

 

 

I'm intrigued by the numerous recent posts regarding colour/liveries/aesthetics. It's clearly subjective, so I'll carry on with this subjectivity by commenting on the following pictures............

 

 

This is glorious. No question! A Geoff Holt masterpiece in S7, painted by Larry Goddard

 

 

In a kind of much-simplified and more-muted form, it certainly sits well on a 'Big-Un. I did this Hornby/Comet conversion, and Ian Rathbone painted it.

 

Blue seems to have been a popular colour down the years for locos, and (at least in part) it's carrying on. 

 

 

I think this livery is awful. It bears almost no relationship to the forms to which it's applied, though how form-following painting would disguise the ugliness of this, I'm not sure. Could it make it worse!? 

 

My thanks to all who've posted shots of Class 68s. 

 

Blue, applied properly, can be most-attractive. 

 

 

 

Somerset & Dorset scenes in O Gauge.

 

However, if the blue is dirty?

 

 

Beautiful Ballyconnell Road in 3mm FS. Muck can't hide the quality of the modelling.

 

British Railways first adopted blue for their express passenger locos............

 

 

It looks fine on a Loveless O Gauge A4.

 

 

And OK on a Hattons' O Gauge A3. It's interesting how the two manufacturers have rendered BR blue/

 

 

I'm not sure it sits so well on a King, though; seen on Pete Waterman's magnificent O Gauge layout. 

 

To those who follow the LNER, it'll always be apple green.

 

Hornby's A1 on The Gresley Beat.

 

 

An O Gauge piece of magnificence from Loveless.

 

 

With an Ian Rathbone paint finish even a 'bit-of-a-fight-to-get-to-fit' ACE kit looks well. I built this for Mark Allatt, and it's seen on Grantham (where the horrid lighting at the NEC has given it a slight colour cast).

 

All the above said, my preference for any big BR BR express passenger loco is Brunswick Green....................

 

 

My modified Hornby A4, painted by Ian Rathbone. It's on the front cover of the latest RM.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clive Mortimore]

We all have our favorite locos and liveries. For a steam loco I find Deeley's simplified 1907 Midland Railway crimson lake very eye pleasing on locos that bear his workman like features, especially a 990 class 4 passenger loco.

 

Now the same colour slapped on to a Western diesel looks very bland to me. Blue on a Western always looks dirty even when freshly painted. Where as when painted in GWR green, without surplus lining as applied to many diesels but with a small yellow panel and red buffer beam, there is no more a graceful looking loco. I can only recall seeing one in the flesh, despite my spotting underlinings suggesting I could have seen more. These could well have been repainted maroon or rail blue by the time I copped them.

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

But only because someone has wiped that bit clean... presumably it would have been covered over prior to that!   It is also ‘weathered’ in that muddy colour so favoured by the RTR manufacturers.

 

Looks like it might have been working on the rail-head treatment train?

 

At least a class 68 has a bit more shape to it than the extruded class 67... they really do take utilitarian to the extreme!

That's exactly what I meant, drivers (and firemen in an earlier era) would wipe a bit clean if only to find out which one it was. We have some over weathered (not by Barry Oliver) locos running on Carlisle which are almost impossible to identify because all the numbers have been covered over. With DCC we don't need to know where a loco is but we do need to know what  it is.

[Woodcock29]

21 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!

 

Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time.

 

There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality.

 

I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none!

 

 

Its interesting how we perceive loco looks Tony (G). 

 

I like most of the GC types, except perhaps the LNER L1 and S1 but as to diesels I found  the Westerns ugly, worse than the Warships but find the 68s quite interesting and certainly not ugly. I took photos of some of the new Chiltern 68s when at Marylebone in 2017 when I was going to Railex at Aylesbury and also the electro diesel version, the class 88, when on a RTC Cumbrian Mountain Express in 2017 behind Scots Guardsmen.

 

However, I find the 66s ugly.

 

Andrew

[micklner]

15 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Very pretty, Mick,

 

'A proper Enterprise in its by far best colour.'

 

But nowhere near in its best condition, most-economical, most-powerful and most-reliable! Those triumphs came when she was an A3, had a double chimney, was painted 'proper' green and had German blinkers! 

 

Your model shows her as an original A1, with short-travel valves and low boiler pressure. Not so good, but, as I say, pretty.

 

And what on Earth has happened to that return crank? If you tried to run it, it would surely jam up. At least it's one way of assuring that the back end of the eccentric rod is lower than the front. Hornby, I assume? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Tony

 

     Yes Enterprise is a reworked Hornby Great Northern and a fine model.

 

Enterprise would have worked better in BR days, but only because it  converted to a A3 by the LNER not BR . Double chimneys were used in the 1930's, as were all the other A3 Builds and A1 conversions of the Boiler etc , Double Chimneys were not adopted wholesale, because the LNER never had the money for fitting them, even BR dragged their heels on fitting them as well.  Blinkers only improved the Drivers view, nowt to do with performance !! 

 

Steam was in its dying agonies by the late 1950's , not helped by GWR Green which was always covered in muck anyway !!. and again lack of money.

 

From 1920 ish  to 1939 you had a  glorious liveries and the era of  Gresley and others enginners, innovation etc was still in the accendance where Steam was concerned. For the  LNER,  The  Silver Jubillee, Coronation and A4's were just around the corner plus many other highlights.

 

Return crank no idea, the photo is from about ten year ago . I am sure undoing one screw and adjusting was quickly done at the time, she is fine and well running well.

 

Mick

Edited December 14, 2019 by micklner

[The Fatadder]

Having spent last night and this morning doing a couple of tasks that I really hate.  It’s a good time to ask some advice and see if I can find a better way of doing it.

 

first up boiler handrails, in particular the curved part over the smokebox door.  I really struggled with this on the Kit built 73xx I was working on this morning (Another restoration of an eBay purchase).  With the Manor, Saint and 2251 all needing handrails in the near future, I’d love to hear some hints to make it easier.

 

The other is with etched tapered boilers.  The boiler for my 2251 is my second attempt at this, But as with the Manor after rolling the etch and test fitting around the formers there is a half mm gap at the joint where the two halves of the wrapper meet. This is after I have removed the fret tabs and deburred the edges.  I can’t work out what one doing wrong 

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Having spent last night and this morning doing a couple of tasks that I really hate.  It’s a good time to ask some advice and see if I can find a better way of doing it.

 

first up boiler handrails, in particular the curved part over the smokebox door.  I really struggled with this on the Kit built 73xx I was working on this morning (Another restoration of an eBay purchase).  With the Manor, Saint and 2251 all needing handrails in the near future, I’d love to hear some hints to make it easier.

 

 

 

 

I know some people make the handrail in two halves, with the join concealed in the top knob. All I've ever done is take it slowly and not form the bends too sharply until I'm sure I've got them in the right position.

 

Roughly: form a gentle bend to about the right radius for the smokebox part. Then slide on the topmost knob. Then gently form the two angles on each side needed to get the wire going back along the boiler.  Use a felt tip to make the bend positions if needed. If you haven't formed the bends too quickly or sharply, I find they can tolerate a degree of unbending/adjustment.  I only fix the topmost knob into the front of the smokebox when I've got all the others in place. I usually drill the holes, then put the right number of knobs on each leg of the wire, then slide them along and fix in place one at a time. Various fine fliers are handy for the adjustment. It's still always a faff.

 

Al

[APOLLO]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm intrigued by the numerous recent posts regarding colour/liveries/aesthetics. It's clearly subjective.

 

Our American cousins made colour / liveries & aesthetics into an art form with many trains back in the Streamliner days post WW2

 

Not many trains more beautiful than this (train mind you, not just locomotives). Why they even wrote a song about it !! Brings a tear to the eye ----

 

 

Although I reckon Johnny Cash's version was just a tad better !!

 

Brit15

 

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I know some people make the handrail in two halves, with the join concealed in the top knob. All I've ever done is take it slowly and not form the bends too sharply until I'm sure I've got them in the right position.

 

Roughly: form a gentle bend to about the right radius for the smokebox part. Then slide on the topmost knob. Then gently form the two angles on each side needed to get the wire going back along the boiler.  Use a felt tip to make the bend positions if needed. If you haven't formed the bends too quickly or sharply, I find they can tolerate a degree of unbending/adjustment.  I only fix the topmost knob into the front of the smokebox when I've got all the others in place. I usually drill the holes, then put the right number of knobs on each leg of the wire, then slide them along and fix in place one at a time. Various fine fliers are handy for the adjustment. It's still always a faff.

 

Al

Round nose pliers help a lot here but otherwise this is about what I usually do.

[TrevorP1]

48 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Our American cousins made colour / liveries & aesthetics into an art form with many trains back in the Streamliner days post WW2

 

Not many trains more beautiful than this (train mind you, not just locomotives). Why they even wrote a song about it !! Brings a tear to the eye ----

 

 

Although I reckon Johnny Cash's version was just a tad better !!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Loved it! Thanks for posting.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Having spent last night and this morning doing a couple of tasks that I really hate.  It’s a good time to ask some advice and see if I can find a better way of doing it.

 

first up boiler handrails, in particular the curved part over the smokebox door.  I really struggled with this on the Kit built 73xx I was working on this morning (Another restoration of an eBay purchase).  With the Manor, Saint and 2251 all needing handrails in the near future, I’d love to hear some hints to make it easier.

 

The other is with etched tapered boilers.  The boiler for my 2251 is my second attempt at this, But as with the Manor after rolling the etch and test fitting around the formers there is a half mm gap at the joint where the two halves of the wrapper meet. This is after I have removed the fret tabs and deburred the edges.  I can’t work out what one doing wrong 

Rich,

 

I showed how I formed continuous in Right Tracks 1 and 2, building a 61XX 

 

Many ex-LNER locos also had this feature, so I've made dozens - all in one piece.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

Tony

 

     Yes Enterprise is a reworked Hornby Great Northern and a fine model.

 

Enterprise would have worked better in BR days, but only because it  converted to a A3 by the LNER not BR . Double chimneys were used in the 1930's, as were all the other A3 Builds and A1 conversions of the Boiler etc , Double Chimneys were not adopted wholesale, because the LNER never had the money for fitting them, even BR dragged their heels on fitting them as well.  Blinkers only improved the Drivers view, nowt to do with performance !! 

 

Steam was in its dying agonies by the late 1950's , not helped by GWR Green which was always covered in muck anyway !!. and again lack of money.

 

From 1920 ish  to 1939 you had a  glorious liveries and the era of  Gresley and others enginners, innovation etc was still in the accendance where Steam was concerned. For the  LNER,  The  Silver Jubillee, Coronation and A4's were just around the corner plus many other highlights.

 

Return crank no idea, the photo is from about ten year ago . I am sure undoing one screw and adjusting was quickly done at the time, she is fine and well running well.

 

Mick

'Steam was in its dying agonies by the late 1950's , not helped by GWR Green which was always covered in muck anyway !!. and again lack of money.'

 

Which just goes to show it's not a good idea to generalise Mick..............

 

 

And this is in the '60s! 

 

'From 1920 ish  to 1939 you had a  glorious liveries and the era of  Gresley and others enginners, innovation etc was still in the accendance where Steam was concerned. For the  LNER,  The  Silver Jubillee, Coronation and A4's were just around the corner plus many other highlights.'

 

I cannot deny, nor would want to, that the period you mention was a glorious one; the halcyon period for Britain's steam railways. 

 

However, the A3s were in their ascendancy (as a class) when they were all in the condition seen above (though not all got the German blinkers). Ironic, isn't it, that when they were at their best they were near the end of their lives? 

 

One can eulogise all one wishes about the 'glorious '30s' on the LNER, but the A3s' running in the late '50s/early-60s was far better than anything they achieved in apple green. Return trips to Newcastle in a day? Then back again the next day, and so on! Engine changing (so frequent in the '30s and up to the late-'50s) became almost a thing of the past as these fantastic veterans ran return diesel diagrams with ease - which the diesels couldn't manage! It required the arrival of the Deltics to give timings which no steam loco could match. 

 

The Gresley A1s and A3s were very attractive in apple green, but it was in BR green that they reached their full potential! And, that's how I remember them, and model them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

[micklner]

48 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'Steam was in its dying agonies by the late 1950's , not helped by GWR Green which was always covered in muck anyway !!. and again lack of money.'

 

Which just goes to show it's not a good idea to generalise Mick..............

 

 

And this is in the '60s! 

 

'From 1920 ish  to 1939 you had a  glorious liveries and the era of  Gresley and others enginners, innovation etc was still in the accendance where Steam was concerned. For the  LNER,  The  Silver Jubillee, Coronation and A4's were just around the corner plus many other highlights.'

 

I cannot deny, nor would want to, that the period you mention was a glorious one; the halcyon period for Britain's steam railways. 

 

However, the A3s were in their ascendancy (as a class) when they were all in the condition seen above (though not all got the German blinkers). Ironic, isn't it, that when they were at their best they were near the end of their lives? 

 

One can eulogise all one wishes about the 'glorious '30s' on the LNER, but the A3s' running in the late '50s/early-60s was far better than anything they achieved in apple green. Return trips to Newcastle in a day? Then back again the next day, and so on! Engine changing (so frequent in the '30s and up to the late-'50s) became almost a thing of the past as these fantastic veterans ran return diesel diagrams with ease - which the diesels couldn't manage! It required the arrival of the Deltics to give timings which no steam loco could match. 

 

The Gresley A1s and A3s were very attractive in apple green, but it was in BR green that they reached their full potential! And, that's how I remember them, and model them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

Tony

 

 

Not generalising, simply a very sad fact !!

Late A3's were good for a simple reason, the Diesels that were supposed to replace them were so poor . BR had to throw money at them e.g the Double Chimney being fitted so late in their life. Otherwise there wouldnt have been hardly anything running on BR. A fitting memorial to Gresley at the end .

 

The photo of the A3 is either ex works after a overhaul, or for a special occasion , no Loco in BR days would look like that, after a few days of normal working ,just look at the condtion of the Locos and the Building behind the A3. If it is in normal use then well done to the cleaners.

 

BR was not exactly healthy in the late 1950's (if it was ever very well at anytime in its history) the Goverment gave  a certain Mr Beeching the job of killing it off with the help of a certain Mr Marples simply due to the huge yearly losses.

 

Litltle Bytham actually sums up BR , devasted within a few years of the 1950's scene.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by micklner

[Clem]

21 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

May I please thank all those who've commented most-generously with their praise for my piece on Little Bytham in the latest RM

I bought the RM today - first one I've bought for some time - for your article on LB. It's a very good article with well laid out illustrations, an interesting back story of how it came together and interesting comment (even if a little well worn in this thread :-)  ) . I liked the way you named and credited your team of friends and helpers with their respective specialisms. 

 

I was also struck by the fact that the Railway Modeller has improved much (in my view) since I last bought one and certainly this issue contains a variety of interesting articles. Plaudits to all!

[Tony Wright]

With those tricky-to-make, continuous handrails, a few illustrations of locos I've made with them. A fiddle to say the least.........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

34 minutes ago, Clem said:

I bought the RM today - first one I've bought for some time - for your article on LB. It's a very good article with well laid out illustrations, an interesting back story of how it came together and interesting comment (even if a little well worn in this thread :-)  ) . I liked the way you named and credited your team of friends and helpers with their respective specialisms. 

 

I was also struck by the fact that the Railway Modeller has improved much (in my view) since I last bought one and certainly this issue contains a variety of interesting articles. Plaudits to all!

Thanks Clem,

 

I admit the LB story is a well-worn, though not every reader of RM reads this thread. 

 

I'm delighted with the way it's turned out. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.