Wright writes.....

[APOLLO]

Just to say - -Whow !! - The grandmother mother of all starts from Newcastle !!

 

 

Here is a modern(ish) version. Same location. A video that though interesting cannot do justice to the black and white still image Tony posted above.

 

 

As to longevity of photography etc, yes we have lost a lot over the years, and will continue to do so. The internet seems to be (at the moment) an answer. New stuff (like the Manchester libraries site above) appear as if from nowhere regularly, which is good.. The fantastic NLS map site also. Will it all stand the test of time ? Well, only time will tell that's for sure.

 

I hope the boffins are looking into this, some sort of super national internet archive ? (Don't the CIA already have this over the pond ?) - doubt they save train pictures though - but they more than likely already have the technology.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I don't know whether I've got mine right on the ex-GC locos I've built, Tony,

 

Particularly on the old K's O4 one, but it is 45 years old!

 

Picking up on an earlier point of yours......'I have never let prototype coal consumption, efficiency or high mileage figures govern what I model.

 

For our purposes, such factors are totally irrelevant. If we did decide what we model on such things, we would all be building electrified lines with modern trains on them or HSTs.

 

So I prefer to model our railways when they were at their best appearance wise, rather than their most efficient. When companies offered competing services and one of the factors in persuading passengers to use, say, the Midland rather than the GCR to go from London to Manchester was to make the trains more attractive and comfortable than those of the opposition. Those fancy liveries were not just for the fun of it. They played an important marketing function too.'.............. I couldn't agree more. 

 

However, my main 'argument' for citing the the A3s being at their very best at the end of their lives was in response to a generalisation that all BR green locos were filthy. They were not, and, anyway, 'handsome is as handsome does'. 

 

And, carrying on showing that not all BR green locos were covered in muck..................

 

 

Obviously, this is the occasion of 60023's last overhaul and repaint at the Plant in January 1963. Most unlike a typical Gateshead-allocated loco, which were usually heroically-filthy. But this loco is not the most interesting one on display here (for the purposes of my point). Look behind, and there's WALTER K WIGHAM. Pretty clean as well, might one observe? Yes, but it's actually withdrawn and awaiting scrapping! 

 

 

And, on odd occasions, 52A might just have a go at cleaning its locos. LEMBERG is 'weathered' but not totally covered in muck, and she's been out of shops a while. 

 

 

Speaking of being out of shops for a while, here's SILVER LINK just a couple of months BEFORE her final overhaul (in April 1961), not a couple of months AFTER.

 

As I said to another correspondent, it's wrong to generalise; even if many BR green locos were dirty, many were not. 

 

Which brings me on nicely to one of your beloved 'Directors'...........................

 

 

Though nowhere near as resplendent as she (he?) was in full GC finery (or even apple green?), PRINCE OF WALES still looks very handsome in lined BR black, at Darnall in 1958. Just as I first saw her earlier, at Chester on the CLC. 

 

This is where your motivation for making models differs fundamentally from mine, Tony. You create things (very well) from a time long before your living memory, even an idealised time might I suggest? My models reflect my personal memories..................

 

 

Like this, built from an old BEC kit (which Geoff Haynes painted beautifully). Have I got the continuous handrail correct? The tender leans a bit!

 

I asked Geoff to paint 62662 as in the prototype picture - quite clean............

 

 

However, most of the other 'Directors' I saw at the same time looked like this. Dusty and rusty, having probably been in store for the winter(s). I just detailed/renumbered/renamed/weathered this Bachmann example.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

When I look at those two Directors, it brings home several of the points I have been trying to put across.

 

In a way it is quite sad to say it as I am like you and much prefer a hand made model than a mass produced one but in this instance, the Bachmann one is just so good that it rather shows the ancient BEC kit up. The cab, the shape of the firebox and they way too small splashers just shout BEC rather than Director to me. The handrail curve looks good though!

 

Apart from the damaged vacuum pipe, the Bachmann one could almost be a photo of a real loco "photoshpped" onto the layout. The weathering has just picked up the detail in a most natural way and the way the dome and chimney sit on the boiler is as good as a model can be.

 

As I have said before, I cannot build models of steam railways as I remember them. I am too young to have any (although nearly 60 now).

 

So I can rule that out as a motive for modelling and choose a period without any personal connection.

 

Many of my favourite GCR locos had gone by BR times, so that ruled that out. As has already been mentioned, Robinson designed some lovely stuff and also improved the appearance of many Parker and Pollitt locos, so the MS&LR period was out. 

 

So that left me GCR or LNER periods. I did start modelling the LNER in the 1930s but when researching locos, after looking at photos of them in LNER black livery and GCR livery, there was just no comparison with how good they looked in earlier times.The LNER flowerpot chimneys didn't help either. I was a bit tempted by the 1923 to 1928 period when many locos were still green but the lining in GCR days and the green and red combination in earlier times won me over.

 

It was more interesting in terms of livery, including the opportunity for me to learn new skills in painting and lining and there was the chance to mix liveries by having some Midland and some Great Northern too. I will never have room to build a Retford or a Little Bytham so I thought that if I had smaller layouts, the sort that are more often seen at shows, then going to pre-grouping times would make mine a bit different to all the BR period ones that seem to be the most common by far,

 

So it was not really anything to do with an idealised vision of the past and more to do with practical considerations as to what I thought would make an interesting subject to model.

 

It was a choice I have never regretted for a moment.

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

Walter K Whigam on the other had might be covered oil and muck and is simply wet from rain or dew ?. Would it be unusual for the namplates and full motion to be still on the Loco if it was being scrapped?   

 

The earlier colour photos posted by Tony look slightly  one in particular of 60110 everything is so perfect. Not a speck of dust on the Front Buffer, Motion ,Driving wheels and Tender frames.Buildings brickwork perfect, even the wagons in a siding behind look brand new a Grey one is immaculate plus others further down the line, including the vivid colour of the grass (better colour than my lawn)  at the front . It all looks like it has been just been built/painted. To my eye it just seems "unusually perrfect". It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.

Again who knows ?? .

 

 

Anyway this is a photo from 1929 A2 City of Durham looking good as does the trackside .

 

 

There wasn't much rain and dew in January 1963, Mick.

 

Remember the big freeze? Ice and snow, yes. 60028 never moved under its own power again, and it is not covered in muck. 60003, 60014 and 60033 were all in the same condition (the first A4s, along with 60028, withdrawn).

 

 'It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.'

 

Except I haven't done that - it's just scanned straight from the transparency. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

Computer storage. My method is a little extreme but should hopefully prevent any loss.

 

My home setup for normal PC use is we have laptops that we then use to "remote desktop" into a server. So nothing is stored on the laptops if they get stolen or break. The server uses disks in RAID 10 - which means that everything is stored twice. If a disk fails, the server still runs. Inserting a replacement disk starts an automatic rebuild. If a second disk fails, depending on which one it is either the server carries on, or if it happens to be the twin of the first  then the server does go down.

 

Backups: I use software called Veeam. For small numbers of devices to back up it is free. Every night it copies any changes to a second server. From ebay I

bought a tape library. The tapes are about £10 each and the LTO5 tapes hold 1.5TB each. Each tape is rated for 260 full writes and a 30 year archive life.

 

Each day the latest backup is copied to tape. I then take the tapes into work and bring the oldest one home to be the next set.

 

Why do I do this? It's a cut-down version of what I do at work (where I have a 15 minute recovery point). Total cost for the servers and tape library and tapes was well under £1000 and allows me the confidence that we shouldn't lose anything more than one days photos etc. 

 

[Retro_man]

22 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Would it be unusual for the namplates and full motion to be still on the Loco if it was being scrapped? 

 

I saw several withdrawn A4s at the Plant all complete with their nameplates and other bits.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Retro_man
spelling

[landscapes]

22 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

There wasn't much rain and dew in January 1963, Mick.

 

Remember the big freeze? Ice and snow, yes. 60028 never moved under its own power again, and it is not covered in muck. 60003, 60014 and 60033 were all in the same condition (the first A4s, along with 60028, withdrawn).

 

 'It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.'

 

Except I haven't done that - it's just scanned straight from the transparency. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

Great photo of LNER Pacific’s in both colour and black & white you have an amazing collection.

 

your comments bring back very happy memories as I started train spotting in late 1962 and A4 60028 was the very first Pacific I ever saw and how lucky was I as she was withdrawn about a month later.

 

in my minds eye even now I can still clearly see her speeding through  Finsbury Park Station heading north, lovely memories and very happy days.

 

Many thanks for posting them all and a very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy 2020 to You and your Family 

 

Best Regards 

 

David

[stewartingram]

15 hours ago, APOLLO said:

I find it interesting that we remember the past sometimes differently than it actually was. No doubt there were superbly clean locos and trains on the ECML, and probably on the WCML also. Time erases some memory

 

I've just this evening stumbled across this superb photo site via Martin Zero on youtube (another interesting site !!) - and it's something both completely different and VERY close to home for me. 

 

https://www.timepix.uk/ 

 

Perhaps to explain, go to the page below first, scroll down a bit and read about the post war survey of Manchester & surrounding towns. Every photo is a photo recording the exact location of an Ordnance Survey revision point used subsequently when performing map revision, but its the general views of life etc, all taken around 1950 which is of interest. Lots of railway content in these albums also. Most photos were used and destroyed - these survived.

 

The SD number is the OS map no, with six fig grid reference below. I guess the top number is a record number.

 

https://www.timepix.uk/PAGES/Photo-map-navigation-pages/n-x5Mxnr/Greater-Manchester-Revision-Point-photographs

 

The particular album below is of 876 photos taken in the area of my birth, south Wigan & Ince. The photo below shows the house I was born in (approx 2 years before I was born !!), the bay windowed house just in view on the left.

 

https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Wigan/Wigan-central-and-Ince-in-Makerfield/i-kN8pfJ2

 

 

The elusive Westwood Park signal box & sidings, halfway along the L&Y Pemberton loop line, which I could see from my parents bedroom window above. just a small stretch of the line half a mile away, through the gaps in the houses opposite. I've been looking for a photo of this box for years. Banking locos (4F 0-6-0's) were added at the rear of westbound Liverpool bound coal trains here - I spent many hours watching those.

 

View west, I lived just behind "the coolies" to the left - Westwood power station, built just before I was born.

 

 

View east from the canal bank - Leeds & Liverpool Leigh Branch. Springs Branch is just out of view centre right.

 

 

View east from the box, towards Hindley.

 

 

There are Lots of photos of little streets, buildings, snotty nosed curious kids with clogs and various assorted railway scenes, a lot of which I remember as a youth - all gone now - I never ever thought I would see again. A big, big thanks to those at Manchester Libraries who have put these on the web. It's like going home !!

 

Lots and lots of close up detail for the 50's modeler also. And no - I never had a pair of clogs !!

 

Brit15

 

That could be analogue/pre-digital version of Google Streetview!

 

Stewart

[grahame]

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

There wasn't much rain and dew in January 1963, Mick.

 

Remember the big freeze? Ice and snow, yes.

 

Yep, although I was only young we were living at Herne Bay at the time and I remember the sea freezing. I think it was the only place in the UK where the offshore sea (not inshore or estuaries) froze. Wikipedia says:  

 

In January 1963, the sea froze for a mile from shore at Herne Bay, Kent.[10][11] The sea froze inshore in many places, removing many British inland waterbirds' usual last resort of finding food in estuaries and shallow sea. The sea froze 4 miles out to sea from Dunkirk.[4] The upper reaches of the River Thames froze over,[9][12] although it did not freeze in Central London, partly due to the hot effluent from two thermal power stations, Battersea and Bankside. The removal of the multi-arched London Bridge, which had obstructed the river's free flow, and the addition of the river embankments kept the river from freezing in London as it had in earlier times.

 

 

G

 

[Anglian]

I use a digital back-up similar to that which Bucoop details but in my case using TimeMachine on the Mac. I don't quite have the same degree of protection built in against hard-drive failure but I have three versions of everything and one of those versions is on my person all the time I'm out. I did have a hard drive fail, which has now be replaced with a faster solid state version. My back-up runs every hour so I didn't loose much work. My applications are via the Adobe Cloud so the rebuild was relatively quick.

 

To pick up on a point made by t-b-g – my first really meaningful exposure to steam was at the Bluebell railway and it was the pre-group liveries of locos, stock and one station that most appealed. (The diesel powered BR Blue of my youth had no appeal at all to me.) For many years I wanted to model the Midland through the peaks as I had walked some of the old track bed aged eight. However, in the end it those elegant and colourful Bluebell locomotives that really caught my imagination.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Anglian

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

There wasn't much rain and dew in January 1963, Mick.

 

Remember the big freeze? Ice and snow, yes. 60028 never moved under its own power again, and it is not covered in muck. 60003, 60014 and 60033 were all in the same condition (the first A4s, along with 60028, withdrawn).

 

 'It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.'

 

Except I haven't done that - it's just scanned straight from the transparency. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony

 

I remember a bit cold I was a mere baby then .

 

I woud'nt think for a second that you had manipulated the photo . However unless you took the photo , who know its history . The overall colours are very vivid  or its the actula film used !. The bottom photo in the same set looks like its painted in metallic paint !!

[Bucoops]

53 minutes ago, Anglian said:

I use a digital back-up similar to that which Bucoop details but in my case using TimeMachine on the Mac. I don't quite have the same degree of protection built in against hard-drive failure but I have three versions of everything and one of those versions is on my person all the time I'm out. I did have a hard drive fail, which has now be replaced with a faster solid state version. My back-up runs every hour so I didn't loose much work. My applications are via the Adobe Cloud so the rebuild was relatively quick.

 

 

 

Mine really is OTT for home use.

[4630]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 'It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.'

 

Except I haven't done that - it's just scanned straight from the transparency. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

1 hour ago, micklner said:

 

I woud'nt think for a second that you had manipulated the photo . However unless you took the photo , who know its history . The overall colours are very vivid  or its the actula film used !. The bottom photo in the same set looks like its painted in metallic paint !!

 

Whoever took it, it's a very fine photo.

 

It looks to me, especially from the saturated colour of the grass, that it's down to the brand and type of film used.

 

I did wonder if, whoever took it, also had a polarising filter on the lens?  It looks like an overcast day, if it was a clear blue sky it might be easier to tell one way or the other, as the polarising effect would probably show more, depending on the angle of the lens relative to the sun and to some extent the focal length of the lens used.   

 

 

 

[MJI]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Just to say - -Whow !! - The grandmother mother of all starts from Newcastle !!

 

 

Here is a modern(ish) version. Same location. A video that though interesting cannot do justice to the black and white still image Tony posted above.

 

 

As to longevity of photography etc, yes we have lost a lot over the years, and will continue to do so. The internet seems to be (at the moment) an answer. New stuff (like the Manchester libraries site above) appear as if from nowhere regularly, which is good.. The fantastic NLS map site also. Will it all stand the test of time ? Well, only time will tell that's for sure.

 

I hope the boffins are looking into this, some sort of super national internet archive ? (Don't the CIA already have this over the pond ?) - doubt they save train pictures though - but they more than likely already have the technology.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

The rear power car should be in the national collection, if it or 43159 goes to scrap it will be a national tragedy in railway history terms. Both should be NRM parked next to Mallard. To be honest those 2 power cars are as important to British railway history as Mallard.

[MJI]

22 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Our American cousins made colour / liveries & aesthetics into an art form with many trains back in the Streamliner days post WW2

 

Not many trains more beautiful than this (train mind you, not just locomotives). Why they even wrote a song about it !! Brings a tear to the eye ----

 

 

Although I reckon Johnny Cash's version was just a tad better !!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

That is a stylish train

[Northroader]

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, 4630 said:

 

 

Whoever took it, it's a very fine photo.

 

It looks to me, especially from the saturated colour of the grass, that it's down to the brand and type of film used.

 

I did wonder if, whoever took it, also had a polarising filter on the lens?  It looks like an overcast day, if it was a clear blue sky it might be easier to tell one way or the other, as the polarising effect would probably show more, depending on the angle of the lens relative to the sun and to some extent the focal length of the lens used.   

 

 

 

Good evening,

 

For copyright reasons I'm reluctant to reveal the photographer's name (though the picture has probably been published before). I can tell you that he's dead, the camera is a Leica and the film is Kodachrome. I don't know if a filter of any kind was used. What's certain is that ROBERT THE DEVIL is beautifully-clean; a not uncommon occurrence at this time (1961), despite some reluctance to accept that elsewhere. 

 

I have a very large collection of images I can call upon to illustrate points. Some of these are my copyright, but others (many others) are not. The copyright owners don't mind in the least if I use the occasional image. In fact, where publication is imminent, it's encouraged. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

Tony

 

I remember a bit cold I was a mere baby then .

 

I woud'nt think for a second that you had manipulated the photo . However unless you took the photo , who know its history . The overall colours are very vivid  or its the actula film used !. The bottom photo in the same set looks like its painted in metallic paint !!

Mick,

 

'I remember a bit cold I was a mere baby then .'

 

I wasn't, I was 16, and, like many houses of the time (ours was Victorian) we had no central heating! The loco coal stacks at 6A had a railway policeman guarding them. 

 

The Dee froze over at Chester and folk were driving their cars across it to get to The Meadows! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[Clem]

Page 1621... 61621 Hatfield House was the only Sandringham or B17 thatI saw - at Lincoln 1957. I've always found the B17s a fascinating class. Always to us young trainspotters they were a bit glamorous, a bit mysterious as they rarely ventured outside of East Anglia and by the time I was old enough to venture into East Anglia, they had long gone. In reality, I suppose they never really lived up to their potential, otherwise they would have lasted at least as long as the K3s. I understand they could be rough riders and apart from the ones with the Thompson boilers a bit weak for their size.

[chrisf]

City of New Orleans, eh?  For my money the Arlo Guthrie version has the edge on that by the late Steve Goodman, who wrote it.

 

Chris

[APOLLO]

Good old days, one coal fire to heat the whole house (but it had an oven alongside to make lovely bread !). Bl***y cold though in '63 !!

 

Another wonderful railway song - goes a bit with this picture - Lostock Hall August 68 .

 

 

 

 

Brit15

 

 

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Yep, although I was only young we were living at Herne Bay at the time and I remember the sea freezing. I think it was the only place in the UK where the offshore sea (not inshore or estuaries) froze. Wikipedia says:  

 

In January 1963, the sea froze for a mile from shore at Herne Bay, Kent.[10][11] The sea froze inshore in many places, removing many British inland waterbirds' usual last resort of finding food in estuaries and shallow sea. The sea froze 4 miles out to sea from Dunkirk.[4] The upper reaches of the River Thames froze over,[9][12] although it did not freeze in Central London, partly due to the hot effluent from two thermal power stations, Battersea and Bankside. The removal of the multi-arched London Bridge, which had obstructed the river's free flow, and the addition of the river embankments kept the river from freezing in London as it had in earlier times.

 

 

G

 

It was alleged by the local press, the 'South Wales Echo', that the sea had frozen at Penarth, just to the southwest of Cardiff, and they had the photos to prove it.  What in fact had happened was that Penarth Council had dumped blocks of frozen snow that they had cleared from the streets on to the beach, where of course the tide floated them off looking like ice floes.  

 

Roath Park Lake in Cardiff froze solid to the bottom, and the council allowed ice skating on it.  A local farmer brought a tractor on the lake and towed kids around in circles on the end of about 40 feet of rope; the kids on the outer end were doing a good speed, but I was happy enough towards the front...  Can you imagine the H & S implications of this nowadays!

 

Cardiff Corporation Transport drove a double decker bus on to the lake and drove it around practising skids, a great photo opportunity which also featured in the 'Echo'.  I was 10 years old at the time, 11 in the February, and the adults were all claiming it wasn't as bad as 1947.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Anglian said:

If there is a concern about losing digitally captured images perhaps it would be worth having prints made, having first checked the expected lifespan. Invest in some acid-free archival boxes and store them for posterity.

 

(I'm having some slides my father took in the 1950's scanned and thus converted to digital. I'll have prints made and also store them digitally.)

It's an interesting topic which rapidly goes beyond the technical possibilities and impossibilities into the philosophical discussion of what should be recorded and how, what 'message to the future' we are giving.  It is feasible to consider that, so long as it is transferred losslessly from one digital format to whatever digital format replaces it, information in the form video, audio, still image, or written could be preserved indefinitely, to the end of time.  One wonders what the point of most of the dross on Facebook would be in this context...

[grahame]

17 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It was alleged by the local press, the 'South Wales Echo', that the sea had frozen at Penarth, just to the southwest of Cardiff, and they had the photos to prove it.  What in fact had happened was that Penarth Council had dumped blocks of frozen snow that they had cleared from the streets on to the beach, where of course the tide floated them off looking like ice floes.  

 

 

Fake news and misreporting is nothing new. ;-)

 

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, MJI said:

 

 

The rear power car should be in the national collection, if it or 43159 goes to scrap it will be a national tragedy in railway history terms. Both should be NRM parked next to Mallard. To be honest those 2 power cars are as important to British railway history as Mallard.

I absolutely agree, and would suggest that they are in fact representative of something even more important than Mallard, which only ever worked on one route really and never became a national standard.  Ideally a full HST set should be preserved, ideally in full working condition.  This is the train that not only saved British Rail, but to a very large extent railways in Britain, beating the traffic on the motorways and, when they were introduced, the fastest train in the world that did not charge a supplementary fare or need to be pre booked, and the fastest diesel train in the world in regular timetable service on 'traditional' railways.  Much maligned British Rail had already progressed to the only trains in the world not requiring supplementary fares with air conditioning, electric heating, and double glazed tinted windows with the later mk2 stock, and these features continued with the HST.  A remarkable feat for which BR should receive a lot more praise than it is usually given.  We were rightly very proud of it.

Edited December 15, 2019 by The Johnster

[robertcwp]

43002 is already in the Railway Museum.