Wright writes.....

[D.Platt]

I was surprised to see the last built EE Type4 (class40 ) was out-shopped without the yellow warning panel !

[PupCam]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Great stuff again, Charlie,

 

IC was a train to Grantham from Kings Cross in 1961, and 1A46 was a late-evening service to Newcastle in the same year. 

 

I never saw steam at Wood Green, only getting down to the southern end of the ECML in the mid/late-'60s. Other than the motive power, it hadn't changed a bit..........................

 

 

 

What excellent photographs Tony!   Got any of New Barnet / Oakleigh Park (my stretch of the ECML)?    Deltics etc would be more than acceptable .....

 

Alan

[Clive Mortimore]

12 hours ago, 60526 said:

Clive/Tony, thanks for the response, I can understand the 1 and 31, but having spotted on the southern ECML for a long time the C threw me. If it was Peterborough then this would have been B going into the 70's. I'll give you a couple more - 1A46

 

 

D1507 coming through the down loop platform at Wood Green 

 

 

1G60 with Falcon on the down main at New Southgate, I'd guess that it is the Sheffield Pullman. Now that's an interest coach on the up side.

 

 

4S04, D399 on the down slow through Wood Green

 

 

1L59, unknown 37 on the down fast at Wood Green

 

 

Terrible photos but every picture tells a story. The camera was a Kodax Brownie 127, not a box brownie as I originally thought.

 

And finally something without a head code, but the horse box behind is interesting, mind you Ally Pally did have a race course.

 

Hi Charlie

 

Lovely set of photos.

D1507, just displaying a 4 only indicates it was a on a fitted freight. It was not an unknown practice for only the train class to be displayed, if the motive power was a steam loco only the lamps would indicate to the signal man what class of train, same with a diesel with folding disc. 

D399, 4S04, without a working time table all I can say is it is a class 4 train heading for the Scottish Region.

The type 3, 1L59, is on an express to Grimbsy or Cleethorpes.

 

I see that the yellow panels that D1507 and D399 should have, appear not to be there. This is a problem with some film from the early 60s. On the DEMU forum there was a discussion about a class 47 that looked like it was without a yellow panel. All were delivered with a yellow panel which threw us until someone pointed out that some films of the early 60s this problem with yellow not being displayed. D399 was delivered with a yellow panel, English Electric photo of it being the last class 40 handed over to BR show it left the Vulcan Works with one. I suspect the class 37 has fallen victim to this as well, the Cleethorpes expresses were in the hands of Darnell's class 37s and as far as I know the few 37s without yellow panels were all GER locos.

 

Falcon is on the Sheffield Pullman

Edited January 10, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[nerron]

5 hours ago, 60526 said:

Now that's an interest coach on the up side.

 

Perhaps an ex-NER clerestory.Some did migrate to the GE section.

[ianathompson]

11 hours ago, dcordingley said:

I love seeing models of overhead EMUs because the modeller has modelled them.

 

Does continental three phase count?

 

6-54 by Ian Thompson, on Flickr

[chris p bacon]

17 hours ago, dcordingley said:

Hi Andy

 

I'm pleased with the Shapeways body shells; with some detailing (separate roof vents, brass handrails) they scrub up pretty well. My only reservation is that the surface of the moulding is slightly coarse - I understand that this is a common feature of 3D printing, although no doubt the "layering" process will improve as the technology is refined. It is difficult to sand down the sides because of the panelling, but for layout vehicles (as opposed to showcase models) I think they're quite acceptable.    

 

The issue you describe is due to the chosen material, if these body shells were purchased in 'White versatile plastic' they will be grainy as it is a 'basic' finish.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/FP9DC3DJR/o-43-lnwr-siemens-motor-coach-1?optionId=64709630&li=marketplace

 

The better material is 'Smooth Fine Detail Plastic'. Here are a couple of examples.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CAQRFRYSG/gnr-lb-scr-petrol-railcar?optionId=103450484&li=marketplace

 

The building of some of these (Mike Trice) 3D printed coach kits has a thread here, the finish of them is very good and needed little preperation before painting.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/XQ6LZ7JJ9/gnr-dia-303-full-brake-kit?optionId=66347830&li=marketplace

 

[grahame]

5 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

The issue you describe is due to the chosen material, if these body shells were purchased in 'White versatile plastic' they will be grainy as it is a 'basic' finish.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/FP9DC3DJR/o-43-lnwr-siemens-motor-coach-1?optionId=64709630&li=marketplace

 

The better material is 'Smooth Fine Detail Plastic'. Here are a couple of examples.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CAQRFRYSG/gnr-lb-scr-petrol-railcar?optionId=103450484&li=marketplace

 

The building of some of these (Mike Trice) 3D printed coach kits has a thread here, the finish of them is very good and needed little preperation before painting.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/XQ6LZ7JJ9/gnr-dia-303-full-brake-kit?optionId=66347830&li=marketplace

 

 

The white versatile plastic is certainly grainy and rough like concrete or stippled artex. And it's very hard making it difficult to smooth. However, I find that even with the smoothest most expensive material option, although it's not grainy, the stratification layers can still be present as a series of ridges. Apparently a lot is to do with the orientation of the model in the printer bed as to whether and how the ridges manifest themselves making the effect a bit of a lottery. Sometimes they are very good with little preparation required, other times the ridges are very obvious and pronounced. Also my understanding is that Shapeways still use layer deposition print technology whereas the more current stereolithography (SLA) print technology produces better results. But then I know little about 3D printing . . . . . apart from trying to model with the resultant prints. 

 

 

 

 

[chris p bacon]

12 minutes ago, grahame said:

Apparently a lot is to do with the orientation of the model in the printer bed as to whether and how the ridges manifest themselves

 

You are quite correct Grahame, I know Mike Trice takes great care to orientate his items for the best results, and the bodies and parts I have from him show little to no stratification.  I do model in 4mm where it isn't such as issue .

[t-b-g]

If a RTR manufacturer introduced models with the thickness and finish of most 3D prints, they would be torn to shreds.

 

I recently purchased some carriages from Shapeways as somebody that I build things for wanted them. When the carriages arrived I spent hours trying to get a nice smooth finish on them and even when I had done so, the panelling was ill defined and very fuzzy and I couldn't see any way of cleaning it up and making it right.

 

So he commissioned Worsley Works to do some etches, which are so superior that I won't by buying anything 3D printed again, until I can actually see a printed model, not a 3D CAD drawing before I buy.

 

When we wanted an Oerlikon EMU for the new bit of Narrow Road, we went for the London Road etch. It will be slower and fiddlier to make but it will have smooth surfaces and flush glazing. 

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, PupCam said:

What excellent photographs Tony!   Got any of New Barnet / Oakleigh Park (my stretch of the ECML)?    Deltics etc would be more than acceptable .....

 

Alan

Thanks Alan,

 

'What excellent photographs Tony!' 

 

Not my pictures, of course - I was only five/six years old when they were taken! 

 

'Got any of New Barnet / Oakleigh Park (my stretch of the ECML)?    Deltics etc would be more than acceptable .....'

 

I have indeed - loads, though I can't post them on here. They are, however, in my two bookazines on Deltics, published by Irwell Press. They're also in my 'Green/Blue Transition' bookazine from the same publisher. Phone 01525 861888 if you want copies.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

One interesting use for 3D printing is to generate a master model from which a mould is made and then copies are cast in resin. The Radley Models Bulleid-Raworth SR/BR 'booster' electric loco (N/2mm) was produced like that with cab ends and sides as separate parts. The resin parts were nice and smooth (with no stratification ridges and just the usual casting flash to clean off) and I presume the master 3D print model was fettled and prepared before producing the moulds.

 

 

Unfortunately it's another model I haven't quite got around to finishing:

 

 

[chris p bacon]

42 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I won't by buying anything 3D printed again

 

I wouldn't be put off by the poor quality prints you describe. 3D certainly has its uses and when it is set up and printed correctly it works well as a modelling medium.

 

[gr.king]

I've seen some very satisfactory 3D printed rolling stock items created by careful, knowledgeable individuals. mostly or wholly on machines that polymerize resin "point by point" rather than those that extrude filaments, some genuinely good enough for use by discerning modellers without further surface preparation. I've also seen some ghastly examples (even on this thread) that have been painted without any real attempt to improve surfaces that should be smooth or almost mirror-flat yet which have either a matchstick-model or downright spray-concrete finish! How some modellers fail to see the awfulness of the latter I really do not know, although it might be handy if anybody wanted to portray the one and only LNER experimental concrete-bodied brake van.....

[Chris Higgs]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

If a RTR manufacturer introduced models with the thickness and finish of most 3D prints, they would be torn to shreds.

 

I recently purchased some carriages from Shapeways as somebody that I build things for wanted them. When the carriages arrived I spent hours trying to get a nice smooth finish on them and even when I had done so, the panelling was ill defined and very fuzzy and I couldn't see any way of cleaning it up and making it right.

 

So he commissioned Worsley Works to do some etches, which are so superior that I won't by buying anything 3D printed again, until I can actually see a printed model, not a 3D CAD drawing before I buy.

 

When we wanted an Oerlikon EMU for the new bit of Narrow Road, we went for the London Road etch. It will be slower and fiddlier to make but it will have smooth surfaces and flush glazing. 

 

Print orientation is key with Shapeways using their ultra-fine detail plastic (or whatever they call is now, I think it is Smoothest). Basically anything which has a downward facing part will be supported by a wax printed at the same time as the plastic. This produces a rougher finish on all surfaces it is supporting. This will include panelled coach sides or beading on tenders for example, as the panelling overhangs the main side and needs supporting. So they have to be printed with the side facing upwards. Which means they really need to be printed as separate sides and ends and put together later. I have not yet tried any of their latest available materials which may well be better.

 

There is also recommendations to print models not flat on but inclined at 5-10 degrees which may reduce the stripeing, again not something I have tried so far.

 

If you are printing your own stuff at Shapeways they provide tools to set the orientation and to show you where there will be wax supporting material. Provided these surfaces will be hidden ones (or are ones easily sanded to remove the roughness)  everything should be satisfactory. Sadly if you are buying someone else's product you have no control over how they have designed it or what orientation (if any) they specified to print it. By definition if you buy something that is a complete body its going to have roughness on some surface somewhere.

 

Etching is in my opinion better for coach sides as even if you get a smooth enough printed side it is bound to be much thicker than an etched one and therefore difficult to glaze in a realistic manner. Unless of course you also know how to produce laser-cut windows. However, pannelling on LNER coaches is half-round which you will never etch as it really is.

 

For coach roofs however it is a different story. I print 2mm scale 3D Printed coach roofs complete with all the vents and roof ribs on them.  Someone did comment on they were not entirely smooth, but after I showed them a photo of the real thing (a Bulleid on the Bluebell with canvas roof covering) the view was perhaps the model ones were not rough enough!

 

Chris

Edited January 10, 2020 by Chris Higgs

[Chris Higgs]

On 09/01/2020 at 10:44, t-b-g said:

 

Many thanks Chris for he news of Dunwich/Ufford". I am in regular contact with the surviving original builders of the layout and every once in a while the discussion goes round to "I wonder what happened to it".

 

I will be seeing them soon and will pass on the good news that i is still around and is being brought back to working order.

 

It isn't easy taking on something that was designed and built by others and I, for one, understand and appreciate the work involved.

 

Tony Gee (currently looking after Buckingham). 

 

Armed with a bit of renewed enthusiasm and a test loco I ventured up to Ufford and switched it on. Initially the loco (a Heljan Hymek with P4 wheels but otherwise unmodified) did not move at all, but retreating to the workshop test track and starting the loco on a known reliable roadbed the conclusion was the track needed a good clean. Easy enough, but tedious on a 32ft by 10ft layout squeezed into a loft barely larger than that. After that was done, the loco trundled up and down happily and smoothly on both Up and Down main lines along the entire scenic sections, the only derailments being on some excessively misaligned baseboard joints. The loco's flickering lights tell me there is more to do and the smoothness of running  may arise from large flywheels and heavy weight rather than superbly cleaned track. And the fact it ran over a piece of emery paper left from the track cleaning and did not derail that it may be very tolerant of track imperfections.

 

My conclusions are

 

1. Heljan Hymeks are darn good locos. Let's hope the Class 15 and 16 are the same as I doubt the output of Beyer Peacock's contribution  to the 1950s Modernisation plan were often seen east of Paddington.

2. Any statements that "Ufford ran badly" really need to be phrased as "the locomotives provided for Ufford ran badly"

3. Ufford can be resurrected - if it had been that the track was not good enough that would probably have meant the effort to get it running would not have been worth it.

 

Onwards and (hopefully) upwards

 

Chris

 

[PupCam]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I have indeed - loads, though I can't post them on here. They are, however, in my two bookazines on Deltics, published by Irwell Press. They're also in my 'Green/Blue Transition' bookazine from the same publisher. Phone 01525 861888 if you want copies.

 

Looks like a visit to the book stands at Stevenage then over the weekend.   Watchout wallet ...

[Barry Ten]

25 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

 The loco's flickering lights tell me there is more to do and the smoothness of running  may arise from large flywheels and heavy weight rather than superbly cleaned track.

 

 

 

 

Heljan lights do tend to flicker more than other makes in my experience so I wouldn't worry about that unduly - it's not necessarily indicative of especially dirty track.

[t-b-g]

I haven't been put off 3D prints in the slightest.

 

Having seen what people like Alan Buttler at Modelu are producing, they are as good as, if not better than, conventionally produced parts.

 

What I won't do any more is purchase anything that I haven't seen in printed form.

 

The items I purchased looked very nice indeed in the 3D CAD image on Shapeways but the prints bore no relation to the image that did, to be fair, say that it was not an image of the printed item. If they had been for me, I wouldn't have even thought about buying 3D printed complete carriages as I enjoy making things and products that take away the elements of construction that I really enjoy are not what I want or need. The particular carriages were for somebody else and something that saved time and work getting them completed seemed like a really good shortcut. That turned out to be wrong.

 

I won't be designing or producing any 3D stuff myself so I have to rely on the design work done by others. I have no interest in learning the necessary skills.

 

Real life is so full of technology, screens and keyboards and I want my hobby to be more about me sitting at a bench with knives, saws, files and suchlike. So I like to keep it a bit "old school" and although I am happy to buy in 3D components or etched or cast kits, the joy for me is in the assembly and painting. if I could have all my models produced in a handful of parts for me by a machine, I wouldn't want it.

 

 

 

 

[PupCam]

4 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I wouldn't be put off by the poor quality prints you describe. 3D certainly has its uses and when it is set up and printed correctly it works well as a modelling medium.

 

 

Indeed and the relatively poor quality of 3D printed items is more to do with the quality of the 3D printers used than a fundamentally flawed process.   If you want perfect quality then you have to use top end, professional printers which cost a very significant amount of cash and that is reflected in the cost charged by the printer. 

 

A friend has 3D modelled numerous components for his beautiful 1/3 scale(!) Fokker DVII and had them professionally printed at very great cost specifically because 3D printers to get the quality/finish he wanted were way above his means.

 

I can't find any of my photographs of it at the moment but it is beautiful thing he has built.   He 3D modelled all of the components he needed including a pair of Spandau machine guns, magnetos and the complex radiator he just didn't do the last fabrication step himself.  The radiator includes thousands of hexagonal holes 2mm A/F.   I defy anyone to make it anyother way!

 

Anyway, if you are interested to see photographs of this manificent (albeit not railway related) model visit Nigel's webpage

 

http://www.flightlinegraphics.co.uk/projects/gtm/fokker.d.VII/fuz.htm

 

Alan

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by PupCam
Expanded info on radiator

[t-b-g]

33 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Armed with a bit of renewed enthusiasm and a test loco I ventured up to Ufford and switched it on. Initially the loco (a Heljan Hymek with P4 wheels but otherwise unmodified) did not move at all, but retreating to the workshop test track and starting the loco on a known reliable roadbed the conclusion was the track needed a good clean. Easy enough, but tedious on a 32ft by 10ft layout squeezed into a loft barely larger than that. After that was done, the loco trundled up and down happily and smoothly on both Up and Down main lines along the entire scenic sections, the only derailments being on some excessively misaligned baseboard joints. The loco's flickering lights tell me there is more to do and the smoothness of running  may arise from large flywheels and heavy weight rather than superbly cleaned track. And the fact it ran over a piece of emery paper left from the track cleaning and did not derail that it may be very tolerant of track imperfections.

 

My conclusions are

 

1. Heljan Hymeks are darn good locos. Let's hope the Class 15 and 16 are the same as I doubt the output of Beyer Peacock's contribution  to the 1950s Modernisation plan were often seen east of Paddington.

2. Any statements that "Ufford ran badly" really need to be phrased as "the locomotives provided for Ufford ran badly"

3. Ufford can be resurrected - if it had been that the track was not good enough that would probably have meant the effort to get it running would not have been worth it.

 

Onwards and (hopefully) upwards

 

Chris

 

 

That sounds promising.

 

I would have been very surprised if the trackwork, by Norman Solomon, was a major cause of any poor running, although relaying and altering track on an existing footprint to a different gauge might have made it more difficult than usual.

 

I have always found that those who get the best running in P4 or in any other scale/gauge are the ones who do the locos and the track together. Having the layout there, set up and ready for use, gives a test bed that allows loco mechanisms to be tested as they are assembled. So checking things like sideplay, springing/compensation is appropriate and works on the curves and points of that particular layout allow any problems be dealt with as construction progresses.

 

When I am building a loco, I like to make sure that it runs through the tightest curve and the most awkward track formations at each stage of construction. Locos built completely away from the layout are always likely to have more problems than those built in tandem with it. 

[Red Devil]

On 3d.... Said it before lots of times, it's not a magic bullet pretty much all prints need a bit of work but you can get there in the end...

This is a Leeds Middleton bogie in 7mm scale (so a big/costly print) built by my friend Tony Tieuli in Boston USA, he finished it in the post war light blue livery.

This came about because I wanted a 4mm version, likelihood of anyone else producing a kit probably slim to zero...7mm version I'd say zero... This is where  3d actually gives those who want to build stuff an advantage, you can get off your arse and do stuff that no one else will in limited numbers and odd scales.

It's just another tool in the box......

[Barry O]

Leeds Trams had a lot of Miggie Bogie Trams.. all from Cast Kits and a LeedsMRS motored chassis. If doing them again they would probably be either etched and 3D printed or 3D printed..

 

Beauitiful model though.

 

Baz

[grahame]

6 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I wouldn't be put off by the poor quality prints you describe. 3D certainly has its uses and when it is set up and printed correctly it works well as a modelling medium.

 

 

Yes, and sometimes a 3D print can be a great start to producing a model when nothing else is available. These two N/2mm trucks have 3D printed cabs and bashed/scratch-built trailers (although the relatively close-up photography is a bit cruel to them):

 

 

While the truck (D800) and car (XR31) below are both straight 3D prints from Shapeways - somewhat cleaned and tidied up and painted.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by grahame
Recorrecting incorrect autocorrecter

[Andy Reichert]

1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

Yes, and sometimes a 3D print can be a great start to producing a model when nothing else is available. These two N/2mm trucks have 3D printed cabs and bashed/scratch-built trailers (although the relatively close-up photography is a bit cruel to them):

 

 

While the truck (D800) and car (XR31) below are both straight 3D prints from Shapeways - somewhat cleaned and tidied up and painted.

 

 

 

Is the glazing 3D printed to match?

 

Andy

[grahame]

3 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

Is the glazing 3D printed to match?

 

 

Unfortunately not. For the windscreens I've cut and filed clear plastic sheet to size and glued in place with the merest smidge of super-glue. They're pretty small, around the size of a small finger nail, so the smaller side windows/quarter lights are either left 'open' or filled with micro-glaze/Kristal Klear.

 

RailNsale vehicles (from Shapeways) do have templates available on their website but there is the faff of downloading and accurately printing them out, then carefully cutting along a printed line by hand. I find it easier and quicker to do by eye.