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Wright writes.....


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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With regards to my 'experience', Tim, I can only comment on what I feel are 'essentials' with reference to the 'successful' exhibition layouts I've been involved with.

 

1. They must be very robust in their construction - ie; when boxed-up for transportation, sections must be strong enough for a grown man (or men) to stand on!

 

2. Every board must have a mate to which it can be boxed together, so that the 'tops' face each other, are separated by substantial end boards and can be strongly bolted together. This protects any scenery and minimises the risk of transportation damage. Ideally, a scenic board will match with a fiddle yard board to minimise the depth of the pair. I've seen some layouts where no two boards are the same size, so successful transportation (without damage) is compromised. When adjacent boards are fixed together during setting up, the same (10mm) bolts must be used as those which secure the transportation end boards. These should pass through 11mm holes in the (metal) endplates, giving some adjustment. Speaking of adjustment, always use a spirit level when setting up and have plenty of pieces of packing. Layouts which employ disparate sizes of means of fixing themselves together are doomed at shows!

 

3. All track ends MUST be very securely-fixed. On Stoke Summit and Charwelton, the rail ends were soldered to substantial metal sprags, Araldited into the baseboards. Any track ends MUST be protected for transportation. 

 

4. Electrics must be robust and reliable. For the inter-connecting of boards, there must be several spare leads. 

 

5. Before any exhibition (even after attending dozens) a layout must be set up beforehand to be thoroughly-tested. 

 

6. Any new items of locos/rolling stock MUST be tested beforehand, and NOT run for the very first time at a show. 

 

7. In conjunction with 6, if any items of locos/rolling stock fails/derails/jerks/stutters/etc, during a show it must IMMEDIATELY be taken off and the fault investigated. Though just popping something back on is all right if it's caused by operator error, merely re-railing a dud is entirely unacceptable. If the fault can be cured at a show, all well and good, providing any future testing is NOT conducted when the show is still open. If testing during non-open hours proves successful, then an item can be placed back on the layout, but NOT until the public has gone. There is no exception to item 7. No matter who the builder is, nor his or her status in the hobby, if what they've built fails, it's OFF

 

8. No team should be allowed to operate a layout until EVERY member has had a full practice session beforehand. I've seen some layouts where complex controls are handed over to a guest operator (who has never operated it before), in the middle of a crowded show, and the result is chaos! There are exceptions which could be allowed - for instance, if it's the last half hour of a show, youngsters might have a try, but only under supervision. And, tangentially, guest stock might be allowed to run, but never during the show's busiest times. 

 

9. When setting up at a show (say, a Friday evening), if possible, a layout should be thoroughly tested to make sure no faults have occurred in transit. It should also be thoroughly tested on the Saturday morning, to identify if any faults have occurred overnight, due to changes in conditions/temperature/etc. So, no lying in bed! Track cleaning is also essential. As is hoovering. 

 

10 NEVER, NEVER, NEVER assume fishplates will conduct electricity! EVERY section of rail MUST have its own feed. 

 

11 All operators should be concentrating at all times, and not be indulging in idle chit-chat with each other. This doesn't preclude having fun, but I've seen too many layouts where NOTHING is happening and the operators are blissfully unaware and just merrily chatting among themselves. To answer any questions from the public, it's a good idea to have a member of the team outside the layout, who's not operating, to explain things. We are in the (paid for) entertainment business. 

 

12 if a fault does occur (and it will), don't wave arms and shout at each other. Be calm, apologise for the problem and fix it as quickly as possible. Occasionally, a major fault will occur (a point failure, for instance), and fixing it will take time. If this does happen, explain the problem to the public. Ironically, someone wielding a soldering iron can prove of interest! 

 

13. If any faults do occur at a show (and their effect can be minimised, if not completely fixed), then they MUST be noted and attended to as near as soon as possible after the show, and DEFINITELY before the next one. I was a guest operator (fully-trained!) on a layout where a V2 constantly failed and a point caused derailments. When I asked if that had happened at the last show, the answer was 'Yes'. And that's all! I declined the next invitation to operate it. 

 

14. It goes (almost without saying) that all track and all stock must be compatible, and, under NO circumstances should dead-frog points be employed. Neither should any stock with plastic wheels be used. 

 

15. As with the layout, all locos/stock should be examined before a show and cleaned/adjusted/oiled as appropriate.

 

16. Others are less-imperative. For instance, on the layouts in question, WMRC members built the locos and stock for them, not being RTR-dependent. 

 

No doubt there are other imperatives which I've missed, and I invite others to 'fill in the blanks' as it were. 

 

My apologies for 'shouting', but I see far too much in the way of poor running at shows these days.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony,

 

I think you have just described London Road and how we usually managed to run it. Much of what we did was based upon what John Redrup of London Road Models had found out when he and the other two original builders of the terminus version of the layout started displaying it in the late 1980s.

 

Some exceptions include;

 

1. I didn't let anybody stand on it, either when set up or in "transport" mode with the baseboards bolted together face to face.

 

2. The baseboards were aligned with pattern makers dowels so didn't need the facility for adjustment.

 

8. Because my friends who operated the layout came from far and wide , they couldn't always get the the pre-exhibition set up events. These were held in a local village hall, usually over Friday to Sunday (at a hire cost of £100). In the first photo, John Redrup is getting out his stock to run, while Paul Cram gets re-acquainted with one of the fiddle yards. We hadn't set up the lighting gantry or the pelmets at point. Getting the right operators can be a problem. I have had to disengage a couple of the years, while some others need careful management.

639152920_Testsession1.jpg.d57d5765c2894544ceb6dbff79ca9fd7.jpg

 

On a couple of occasions we did have novice guest operators, as the photo at the NEC in 2016 shows.

959383584_Newoptraining2.jpg.cf36a7b2067f4ff6ba7da936162b0625.jpg

 

9. Agree entirely. I always aimed to have London Road set up and tested - even if all the stock hadn't been put out - by eight o'clock on the evening before the show at the latest. Having started about 12 hours before that to pick up the hire van means it had already been a long day but I always wanted to be satisfied that there wouldn't be any issues when the show opened. We usually started operating about 30 minutes before the show started so any last minute issues became apparent and the operators were in the swing of things.

 

I would add - have a checklist for everything you need to take - and go through it as the very last thing you do before you set off! Fortunately we never left anything behind, although I did forget to pack a hairbrush in my overnight bag on one occasion. As an idea of how much "stuff" was involved, this not very good photo shows what it looked like when packed in a SWB Transit. I later changed over the type of stock boxes I used from the one shown at the back of the van when the amount of stock outgrew the two I had of that type.

 

 

365453753_SWBtransitloaded.jpg.b20552eb2299d0026d9021dfeb4d9292.jpg

 

The problems we had over the years tended to revolve around aging dropper to rail connections, which never manifested themselves before play opened, but at some time over the weekend. Transporting the layout in the back of a Transit obviously exacerbated this problem and in later years I used rolled up car rugs to provide shock absorbing "sausages" under the baseboards. Derailments were pretty infrequent and usually stock related, so the policy of "take it off straight away" is a must. I usually spent no time operating, but was on hand to fix problems, clean stock, etc. and answer any questions about the layout. Clean track, loco wheels,  properly adjusted pick ups and AJ couplings were all a must to get the best running. I found that steel tyres with small brass pickup pads on phosphor bronze strip pickups worked best.

 

The subject of exhibition invitations is an interesting one. Most came from the scale gauge Society events or show managers I had got to know as modellers through the years. Very few unsolicited ones came my way, including some from small clubs with one day shows where it wasn't really economic for them and so it didn't happen. Even after London Road appeared in MRJ and RM in late 2018, there was a deathly silence. 

 

Jol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jol Wilkinson
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This is a video showing what not to do when you move your uncoupled loco away from its passenger train. Should you ever see this replicated on a layout then at least you can say there is almost certainly a prototype for everything.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With regards to my 'experience', Tim, I can only comment on what I feel are 'essentials' with reference to the 'successful' exhibition layouts I've been involved with.

 

No doubt there are other imperatives which I've missed, and I invite others to 'fill in the blanks' as it were. 

 

I see far too much in the way of poor running at shows these days.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

HI Tony,

I agree with you entirely although some in your list are not always possible in reality.  I am thinking of your suggestion of the need to set the layout up and test it prior to going to the next exhibition.  At Shipley (MRS) the same floor space is needed for three layouts.  Two of our exhibition layouts  (LSGC and Hungerford) and our new exhibition layout Clayton (still under construction).  As a result we only erect an exhibition layout between exhibitions if there has been a problem at the previous exhibition that we need to investigate before remedial action can be taken.  

 

Another cause of compromised running at exhibitions not yet mentioned are poorly designed control panels.  These 'encourage' the operator to make errors whereby a train takes the wrong route or stops on a dead section, etc.  The problem gets worse at the end of the day when the operators are tired and therefore more prone to making mistakes.  This can be just as frustrating for the operator as for the viewing public.  In contrast a well designed control panel not only keeps the trains running smoothly but also helps to keep the operators fresh and relaxed.

 

Regards,

 

Frank.

 

 

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There was a fair bit of poor running in evidence at Stevenage, more than I recall at any other show, or at least there was when I was watching trains. One large layout was plagued with problems. It was such an interesting model I had fully expected to spend an hour or even two in front of it. Even though I returned several times through Sunday it seemed as if never a minute went buy without something going wrong. I don't know if this is normal for this layout but it was a great shame and I expect the operators were disappointed as well.

Perhaps ironically, given that smaller scales are sometimes considered to be a bit less reliable, two layouts which did work faultlessly during the time I was watching them were both N gauge – Brinklow and another, the name of which escapes me, but which featured very nice looking FiNetrack with hand built points. The locomotives had sound on board but they were turned down very low, which was actually quite effective and not at all obtrusive. The layout ran very well.

On one 4mm layout I witnessed a member of the team have an all too public meltdown at continued electrical problems and on yet another a locomotive set off without it's tender drawbar connected so the engine was reduced to tugging its tender and train behind it on an all too long leash of electrical  pick-up wires. What was perhaps more amazing was that none of the operators appeared to notice.

As always it was a pleasure to meet with Tony and Mo and also to meet Geoff Haynes for the first time.

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5 hours ago, Kevin Roche said:

The Anglo Scottish Cement Trains on The ECML commenced in August 1960 with the introduction of The Purfleet to Cambuslang / Leith Service. Initially these were loaded at just 15 Presflos and were hauled by 9F’s and V2’s. This train grew progressively in length until August 1961 when a new Anglo Scottish Service commenced between Cliffe and Uddingston loaded to 28 Cemflos. 9F’s were initially the mainstay until the introduction in December 1961 of  2 Class 33 diesels on the working, the second unit being provided because of the high rate of failure on these locomotives at the time.

However I have been unable to identify any photos or detailed observations of the use of A2/3 Pacifics on The Cement Trains and wonder if the use of The New England A2/3 was just a one off trial. It would be interesting to discover which locomotive was used on the initial trial.

Looks to be 28 Cemflos or thereabouts in this train:

48706332371_e43efb4420_c.jpg92039_nrStevenage by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

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49 minutes ago, Anglian said:

Brinklow and another, the name of which escapes me, but which featured very nice looking FiNetrack with hand built points. The locomotives had sound on board but they were turned down very low, which was actually quite effective and not at all obtrusive. The layout ran very well.

 

That sounds like 'Little Salkeld' by Paul Moss. It was opposite Hobby Holidays stand in the same hall as Tony.

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In Tony's list of exhibition operating, I would agree with all but point 8.

 

Other than that, I like to think that is how I would do things unless major problems prevented me. There has been the odd show where transport or other problems meant setting up on the morning of a show, which I always hated doing. I needed to know that all was well before I left the layout on the Friday night and would never truly relax and start enjoying myself until we had proved that it still worked on the Saturday morning, perhaps running through a sequence fully. 

 

One of the great joys in exhibiting, especially my recent experiences with Leighton Buzzard, have involved seeing somebody who is clearly showing an interest in how the layout works and giving them the opportunity to have a go. Under close supervision of course and if any sign of not wanting to run it properly is spotted, they are off straight away.

 

Apart from anything else, other viewers seemed to enjoy the explanations of what was happening and why as the new operator worked under full instruction. The pleasure and joy that it gave others was many times over worth the risk of an inexperienced operator making a mistake.

 

So if I ever exhibit a layout again, I won't be banishing any guest operators. If it encourages a newcomer to the hobby by making their visit to a show a bit more memorable, it is worthwhile.

 

If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy?   

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12 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Looks to be 28 Cemflos or thereabouts in this train:

48706332371_e43efb4420_c.jpg92039_nrStevenage by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

In Townsend's  East Coast Pacifics at Work , the A2/3 working is mentioned , the way the running  is worded it may have been a one off trial run ., no other details theron.

Edited by micklner
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29 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

In Tony's list of exhibition operating, I would agree with all but point 8.

 

Other than that, I like to think that is how I would do things unless major problems prevented me. There has been the odd show where transport or other problems meant setting up on the morning of a show, which I always hated doing. I needed to know that all was well before I left the layout on the Friday night and would never truly relax and start enjoying myself until we had proved that it still worked on the Saturday morning, perhaps running through a sequence fully. 

 

One of the great joys in exhibiting, especially my recent experiences with Leighton Buzzard, have involved seeing somebody who is clearly showing an interest in how the layout works and giving them the opportunity to have a go. Under close supervision of course and if any sign of not wanting to run it properly is spotted, they are off straight away.

 

Apart from anything else, other viewers seemed to enjoy the explanations of what was happening and why as the new operator worked under full instruction. The pleasure and joy that it gave others was many times over worth the risk of an inexperienced operator making a mistake.

 

So if I ever exhibit a layout again, I won't be banishing any guest operators. If it encourages a newcomer to the hobby by making their visit to a show a bit more memorable, it is worthwhile.

 

If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy?   

'If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy? '  

 

Just a couple of questions please, Tony.....

 

How big is the terminus/shunting layout? How many different locos/trains does it have?

 

Over 30' long? Over 50 trains? 

 

Hmm. Despite roundy-roundies being perceived as being easy to operate, they only work successfully if the operation is slick, and EVERY operator (a minimum of four/five driving the ones I've mentioned) knows exactly what they're doing - setting multiple roads, operating signals, 'obeying' signals and anything else necessary to 'entertain' a viewing crowd - and it's a much bigger (and more critical?) crowd in front of a much bigger layout usually.  

 

No, I stand exactly with what I said with regard to point 8. A layout doesn't get invited to nearly 80 shows in 14/15 years (Stoke Summit) if it's operated by drivers who are learning! How can one operate permissive block successfully with 'just' analogue, having never done it on a layout before? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point
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I thought Tony's list of exhibition essentials was pretty much spot on. I would add a couple more. Firstly, get the trains right, ie right loco on right stock in right formation. Secondly, if you must use 3-link couplings, see below.

 

I don't exhibit much but am occasionally to be found helping with operation on the P4 layout 'Harton Gill'. It usually works pretty well although uneven floors can be a problem, even with height-adjustable legs and packing. It's largely a shunting layout so there is lots of coupling and uncoupling using 3-link couplings. These can easily drive you mad but the way Graham Broad does them on Harton makes them more bearable than they otherwise would be as the bottom link is steel, so you use a small magnet to couple and uncouple. This is vastly quicker than the little hooks I have seen used on other layouts, which in my view do not stand up to exhibition use as they are too fiddly and by the time coupling has been achieved, the public will have moved on. Although small, Harton has the potential to have three trains moving at once, so there is usually something to keep the public interested. It has two different forms of electrification too.

 

40196390252_29b5676257_c.jpg20180210_163853_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

40196389862_13119e0e74_c.jpg20180211_095102_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I didn't build any of it. It's way beyond my standard. I just help move and operate it.

 

Edit: following numerous requests, there is even a shopping trolley in the stream, but I don't have a photo to hand.

Edited by robertcwp
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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Looks to be 28 Cemflos or thereabouts in this train:

48706332371_e43efb4420_c.jpg92039_nrStevenage by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a photo of A2/3 60518 Tehran on what I think is a cement train at Knebworth. The wagons are not like those in your photo, they are what I think is termed a Presflow.

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I think I may have found a good primer.

 

Tamiya fine surface primer, the car ones are too lumpy, I had a HobbyCraft voucher so primer and No11 knife blades.

 

Sprayed 4 aircons in it and it appears to cover plastic, brass and whatever the frames are (stainless steel?) pretty well.

 

Will have to wait until spring for blue and grey

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

'If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy? '  

 

Just a couple of questions please, Tony.....

 

How big is the terminus/shunting layout? How many different locos/trains does it have?

 

Over 30' long? Over 50 trains? 

 

Hmm. Despite roundy-roundies being perceived as being easy to operate, they only work successfully if the operation is slick, and EVERY operator (a minimum of four/five driving the ones I've mentioned) knows exactly what they're doing - setting multiple roads, operating signals, 'obeying' signals and anything else necessary to 'entertain' a viewing crowd - and it's a much bigger (and more critical?) crowd in front of a much bigger layout usually.  

 

No, I stand exactly with what I said with regard to point 8. A layout doesn't get invited to nearly 80 shows in 14/15 years (Stoke Summit) if it's operated by drivers who are learning! How can one operate permissive block successfully with 'just' analogue, having never done it on a layout before? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

You don't need to ask how big Leighton Buzzard is, do you Tony?

 

All I am saying is that if a novice can manage a layout that has things like slow running, gently easing up to vehicles without bashing them about, changing direction, coupling and uncoupling, remarshalling, adding and removing vehicles, working block bells and instruments as well as points and signals, then they should be able to manage on a layout where each train just does a circuit on a continuous run. The latter should be easier if the vast majority of trains just go round. You learn how to set a route in the fiddle yard, a couple of signals and you are away!

 

So although the physical size of the layout may be smaller and there may be fewer and shorter trains, there is actually more to physically do operating Leighton Buzzard than there is to Stoke Summit or Little Bytham. There are more actions for an operator to carry out for each train that runs.

 

I have operated Gresley Beat, Dunwich, Retford and various other layouts where trains went mostly round in a circuit. They are a doddle and much easier compared to one where all the moves are into and out of a terminus with all the associated station movements. The length of the trains and the number are irrelevant. 

 

As for running two trains on one track, Peter Denny cracked that before Stoke Summit was thought of. We don't usually do it when we have visitors as you need skills akin to playing a church organ but when a train leaves Buckingham, you depart it on the Grandborough controller and switch the platform line to the Buckingham controller (to release the loco that brought the train in up to the platform starter) as soon as the departing train loco is clear of the platform end. It requires putting signals back and pulling other levers at the same time as working the controller and doing these things when trains are moving, so we tend to keep it for when we have a proper running session with fully trained up operators.

 

I am sorry that you feel I was wrong to give people the chance to operate Leighton Buzzard at shows. It made those who had a go happy and seeing their pleasure made me happy too. Some of them turned out to be very good operators too. Seeing grown modellers shed tears of joy at being able to drive those famous old models was worth every moment.

 

There may even be one or two RMWebbers who had a go. Hopefully they were happy enough that I don't follow all your rules.      

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a photo of A2/3 60518 Tehran on what I think is a cement train at Knebworth. The wagons are not like those in your photo, they are what I think is termed a Presflow.

Presflo cement wagons are outside framed closed hoppers with top loading hatches and pipe unloading under air pressure, the origin of the name.  

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3 hours ago, MJI said:

I think I may have found a good primer.

 

Tamiya fine surface primer, the car ones are too lumpy, I had a HobbyCraft voucher so primer and No11 knife blades.

 

Sprayed 4 aircons in it and it appears to cover plastic, brass and whatever the frames are (stainless steel?) pretty well.

 

Will have to wait until spring for blue and grey

 

 

If you are searching for a fine primer, I can also recommend trying the Gunze brand "Mr.Surfacer" range.  It comes in grades of 500, 1000 and 1200 that emulate wet and dry paper, and is sold in both grey, and white I believe.

 

I'm not a fan of aerosol cans for hobby work, but I make an exception for this product - it really does create a great base to paint on top of. 

 

There's even a Mr.Resin if you're dealing with that base material.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

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6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

As for running two trains on one track, Peter Denny cracked that before Stoke Summit was thought of. We don't usually do it when we have visitors as you need skills akin to playing a church organ but when a train leaves Buckingham, you depart it on the Grandborough controller and switch the platform line to the Buckingham controller (to release the loco that brought the train in up to the platform starter) as soon as the departing train loco is clear of the platform end. It requires putting signals back and pulling other levers at the same time as working the controller and doing these things when trains are moving, so we tend to keep it for when we have a proper running session with fully trained up operators.

Ahhh .... the joys of Protocab and battery operation. It allows me to do all of this with 1/10th of the skill and I am driving the actual train rather than the track!

 

I would love to have a go on Buckingham, and get to know how such complex manoeuvres are achieved ... but equally there is something viscerally satisfying about actually driving the locomotive with no impact on any other locomotive (in principle).

Edited by Lecorbusier
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1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

Ahhh .... the joys of Protocab and battery operation. It allows me to do all of this with 1/10th of the skill and I am driving the actual train rather than the track!

 

I would love to have a go on Buckingham, and get to know how such complex manoeuvres are achieved ... but equally there is something viscerally satisfying about actually driving the locomotive with no impact on any other locomotive (in principle).

Whisper it quietly but just like DCC - Lights blue touch paper and stands back!

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11 hours ago, micklner said:

In Tatlow's East Coast Pacifics at Work , the A2/3 working is mentioned , it may however the way it is worded a one off trial run ., no other details.

There is a good discussion of this issue on this thread.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107721-cemflos-cliffe-uddingston-flow-silver-queens/&do=findComment&comment=3626773

 

I’ve done a fair bit of puzzling to work out what is right to run on my layout and decided that the A2/3 was either a one-off or a rarity. As has been stated, the ECML cement traffic really started in 1960 with a Purfleet to Cambuslang and Leith service with Presflo wagons. This changed to Cliffe-Uddinsgton in August 1962 and simultaneously changed to Cemflo wagons. Townsend  (p154) is talking about the Cliffe-Uddingston train (I.e. Cemflos) and states that an A2/3 was sent out one day and was reported as the only loco to master the job. It’s easy to read the implication that it became a regular, but it doesn’t say so, and most of the photos I’ve seen are 9Fs.

 

My conclusion (but I don’t claim 100% historical rigour in this) is:

pre 1960: no regular block train of Presflo or Cemflo wagons

1960-61: Regular block train of Preflos starting at 15 wagons and growing normally hauled by 9Fs

1961 onwards: Regular block train of c.28 Cemflos hauled a pair of 33s to North London and then a 9F onwards later changing to a pair of 33s as far as York and later still a single 33. At some point it was diverted via the GN/GE joint line. A2/3s substituted on this train at least once and maybe more often.

 

I hope this is useful.

 

Andy

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16 hours ago, micklner said:

Tony

             Not a problem for Hornby if they had chosen the other Locos to make in the first place, too late now anyway. Hopefully they will be a success , I see little reason why they would'nt , at the moment.

 

cheers

 

Mick

 

 

Mick,

 

I think the point is that with minimal changes, Hornby can make 19 locos with this tooling as strip away the smoke deflectors and tender and there’s not much difference between an A2/3 and a reboilered A2/2. To do the early A2/2 tooling would limit them to 6 engines in LNER days and only two in the most popular Transition era. 

 

Andy

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3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Mick,

 

I think the point is that with minimal changes, Hornby can make 19 locos with this tooling as strip away the smoke deflectors and tender and there’s not much difference between an A2/3 and a reboilered A2/2. To do the early A2/2 tooling would limit them to 6 engines in LNER days and only two in the most popular Transition era. 

 

Andy

19 engines really ? Are you saying , the A2/2 and A2/3 are being made with the same Boiler by Hornby ? I havent checked any details at the moment .

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