Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

Now that I've seen the cylinder covers on the Hornby A4 I can't unsee them, They look like the ears on a Basset hound.

[Michael Edge]

I can't remember what I did to the Carlisle ones but there's certainly more of a curve.

Hornby loco converted to EM with new wheels, additional frames and all new motion. 

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, t-b-g said:

One thing that does rather spoil those RTR A4s is the slab sided cylinder cover.

 

On the real locos, the bottom of the cylinder, from roughly the level of the piston rod, is a lovely curve, just the same as the bottom of the cylinders on more normal other locos.

 

I appreciate that the models have been designed so that the cylinder cover is part of the body and slots down over a dummy cylinder which is attached to the frames, but there are other ways of doing it.

 

The Hornby one looks too deep anyway, coming down almost to the centre of the bogie wheels.

 

The Bachmann A2 pictured above is much better in this respect.

I agree Tony,

 

Though the SEF-chassised one does have a sort of curve at the base. Each part of the cylinders is attached to the frames, not the body; unlike the Hornby one, where the cylinder 'covers' are part of the body. That seems to be the RTR way. 

 

I think the Hornby A4 body is generally very good, and those subtle curves have been very well-captured.

 

However, in my view, the best 4mm A4 is the Pro-Scale one........

 

 

 

 

 

 

They do take some building, and are not for the non bloody-minded, but (especially with an Ian Rathbone paint finish, as this is), the effort is worth it.

 

Friend, Eric Kidd, must have thought the same (though he paints his own locos).........

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I can't remember what I did to the Carlisle ones but there's certainly more of a curve.

Hornby loco converted to EM with new wheels, additional frames and all new motion. 

I don't know whether I've mentioned this before, Mike, but who painted that fine model? 

 

The reason I ask is, that, among all the other A4s, 60011 was the only one never to receive electric warning flashes. It's tender did, but not the loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[DougN]

I have heard of a professional builder building a Martin Finney chassis and placing it under a Hornby body as they said it was the equivalent with a few modifications to that of building a Martin Finney body.  Personally I have not seen the result however it was great phrase from the builder. This was third hand when I heard it so I would like to not mention names in case there was any Chinese whispers. 

 

I am looking forward to building the 2 kits I have for the A4's one day! 

[Michael Edge]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I don't know whether I've mentioned this before, Mike, but who painted that fine model? 

 

The reason I ask is, that, among all the other A4s, 60011 was the only one never to receive electric warning flashes. It's tender did, but not the loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

You've pointed that out before but I don't think the loco was painted at all, I think it's the Hornby finish. Its possibly varnished  and lightly weathered but it was done eight years ago and I don't remember.

[thegreenhowards]

23 hours ago, Kevin Roche said:

Further to Andy and Tony’s comments I reckon a loaded Presflo came in at 36 tons which made it a heavy wagon. This is probably what led to the introduction of The Cemflo wagon which was constructed from a lighter material. Although the photo is important in that it identifies the use of 60513 Dante (34E) on a Cement Train, I don’t think it is a photo of the test train as the formation is too short. I believe the length of the train increased progressively from 15 Presflos to well over 20 wagons by August 1961 when The Cemflo service commenced. For a period from August 1961 until November 1961, both trains ran along The ECML but on different days of the week. From that date The Cemflo service appears to have taken over although I believe that after that date there were still Presflo trains operating on The ECML in connection with the transport of flyash from The South Yorkshire Power Stations to Fletton, south of Peterborough. So it would be interesting to discover the identity of The A2/3 used on the test train, but also as to whether this train consisted of Presflos or Cemflos?

There is no evidence that I know of that 9Fs struggled with the train when it was formed of Presflos. As you say 20 wagons of 36 tons is not overly demanding for a 9F. Andrew’s photo sounds like it is a short Presflo train with an A2/3, but we don’t know whether this was a test, an on the day substitution or a regular occurrence. The comment in Townsend’s book referred to the Cemflo era, when the train changed to Cliffe to Uddingston and loaded to c.28 wagons. The Cemflos were a similar weight loaded to the Presflos but in their case, 8.5 tons of body and 27 tons of load. A 28 wagon train would weigh c.1000 tons which might tax a 9F on Stoke Bank especially if the timings were tight - perhaps the performance experts could comment? I’ve seen no other photo of an A2/3 on either Presflos or Cemflos.

 

So the evidence as I see it is that an A2/3 worked the both Presflo and Cemflo train at least once each and possibly on an occasional basis, but was not a regular on either...certainly not on the Presflos.

 

With regard to brake vans, I think the brake van at each end started with the Cemflos and was required because it reversed somewhere in North London. I think the Presflo train sometimes had a second brake van in the middle because it split on route. There is a good picture in ‘Focus on Freight: Eastern Region since 1960’ (p34) of 9F 92188 with 15 Presflos including two brake vans, one after the 10th wagon and one at the rear. Admittedly this is captioned as a test. The same book has a good picture (p39) of 92040 on 28 Cemflos with a brake van at each end and (p42), V2, 60845 With a longer rake of Presflos with the brake van(s) out of sight.

 

Andy

[micklner]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Eric,

 

I didn't have any say on which picture would be used on the cover of the RM (why would I need to?), but I (obviously) submitted one (which they liked) featuring an RTR loco. 

 

I think it's fair to say it's a bit more than just an 'ordinary' RTR loco.......

 

 

It started out as Hornby's original 'NE' black A4, SIR CHARLES NEWTON. I detailed it, changed the bogie wheels, close coupled the loco-to-tender and asked Ian Rathbone to paint it. I think, body-wise, its as good as any A4 I've made (probably better) but it's in the chassis area that the Hornby A4 is weak. The valve gear is insubstantial and too 'two-dimensional', and the slidebars and crossheads lean upwards towards the rear (the opposite of what they should be). The slidebar support brackets have long-gone - they're moulded as part of the body, and break off with too much ease. However, all the above said, with Ian's painting it does look rather nice. 

 

 

It's pulling power is also rather limited, so the eight-car Talisman is about its maximum. 

 

 

The real thing could take a fair bit more!

 

 

Given that the bodywork on 60008 is so good, what I might do is replace the Hornby chassis, and make one from SE Finecast - as I have here; underneath a modified Bachmann A4 body. This one also tows an SEF tender. Ian Rathbone also painted this.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed the Hornby A4 (and its sisters A1 A3 ) valve gear is a bit weedy , however looking at Faringdon, the awful fit of the Cylinder Covers is far more noticable to me at least.  It looks like the Finecast Body to me/  as their W1 was just as bad a fit in that area . As soon as Graeme made the A4 to W1 upgrade  mine was sold on, as it has such poor detail ,as on the juggernaut weighing Whitemetal Tender. As I model LNER the A4 valve gear is hardly seen behind the valances anyway.

It will be interesting to see what the A2/2/3 gear looks like on its arrival ,as that will will require complete new valve gear to be made.

[Kevin Roche]

The High Dyke to Aldwarke Class C Iron Ore Train  was another interesting Freight working on The ECML. There was a regular service between High Dyke and Aldwarke for many years, utilising unfitted Iron Ore Tipplers, hauled by O2’s and occasional V2’s. Following a reorganisation in The Eastern Region Divisional Management Structure, a fully fitted C Service was introduced utilising vacuum fitted Iron Ore Tipplers in the distinctive bauxite livery. This Train only ran from March 1962 until March 1963, utilising A3’s from Grantham MPD and A1’s from elsewhere, loaded to about  27 wagons. However it proved difficult to keep the rake of vacuum fitted Tipplers together iin daily service. Apparently it was quite an experience in the early evening  when the train headed North through Grantham at 50mph as the driver got to work with the train.

[Mike 84C]

Thompson Pacifics must be the most discussed LNE loco, would he be smiling or spinning in his grave?  I understand the engineering rational for the design and layout but the front end does look strange. That smokebox could have held a huge amount  of char!  I wonder if Hornby picked up  on the love/hate interest in Thompson's  Pacifics  and thought these will sell?  I do hope so.

    9f's; a good boiler which needed a deeper firebox, in my experience, because burning welsh coal or ovoids you need depth of fire and on a 9f  the back corners always full. I felt as if you were firing up hill to keep a good fire at the backend.  The deflector plate must have been the least used bit of kit on a WR 9f, never used, made a good footrest. This treatment did the brickarch and tubeplate no favours. And for some reason made working in front of that firedoor even hotter! I know this because I have used a deflector plate but only when using hard coal. But those engines could devour some coal when worked hard/ running fast like on a fitted train.

   At Banbury we worked the Handsworth to Hoo Juct; Presflows. It was the worst job at  the depot. Rlf Oxley men at Banbury sta, right away OOC yd via the new line. Leave train at OOC yd, light engine to Greenford turn on the jct; light engine back to OOC down yd and await the loaded Presflows from Hoo Jct; just to fill your time in you cleaned the fire filled the tank and shovelled as much coal forward from the back of the tender to the front and had your snap. The two!!Southern men rolled up with the train on their Sulzer diesel, me or my mate made another can of tea and we back on the loaded train, blow up the vacuum do a brake test, the blower is on coal is going in the firebox and we get the road. Good stir with the pricker of the fire shut the doors both dampers up and see how she go's!! Usually nonstop back to Banbury,it was a night shift and pull more coal forward for the crew who relieved you at Banbury. I have to say I never did a full week or had a 9f on that job only class 5's but the routine was the same. Often too tired to ride my bike the six miles home!

  A class 8 load for Hatton bank was 22 = 76 wagon units. 

  One thing about loaded Presflows was they never seemed to roll freely, shut off and the train just seemed to slow down! And the vac brake on these wagons was fitted with direct admission valves where the train pipe acts as a messenger. Once they opened at about 15" of vacuum you were lucky if the train did'nt grind to a halt. One more 9f detail, they had a most appalling insensitive regulator which would stick open, never jam shut and just a little tug would often be enough.

 Just reread this post gosh it ambles on!  But it wernt all beer and skittles.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

Agreed the Hornby A4 (and its sisters A1 A3 ) valve gear is a bit weedy , however looking at Faringdon, the awful fit of the Cylinder Covers is far more noticable to me at least.  It looks like the Finecast Body to me/  as their W1 was just as bad a fit in that area . As soon as Graeme made the A4 to W1 upgrade  mine was sold on, as it has such poor detail ,as on the juggernaut weighing Whitemetal Tender. As I model LNER the A4 valve gear is hardly seen behind the valances anyway.

It will be interesting to see what the A2/2/3 gear looks like on its arrival ,as that will will require complete new valve gear to be made.

The cylinder fit was as good as I could make it, Mick (I could make it perfect in Photoshop!). 

 

It is a Bachmann body on 60034 (packed with lead), which had the old Trix one as an ancestor!

 

The Graeme King conversions from an A4 to the W1 are excellent, but mine is all SE Finecast. It'll haul anything, which no Hornby-derived one will.

 

These might well have been seen before, but they are pertinent.......

 

 

David West's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

Tom Rance's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

 

My SE Finecast W1, painted by Ian Rathbone. Yes, a bit 'chunky' by comparison, but better-looking motion and great power.

 

 

It used to guest on Biggleswade.

 

 

Speaking of 'chunky', this is an SEF original W1 I sold on on behalf of a bereaved family (builder/painter unknown). What 'price' something like this in a year's time?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

Agreed the Hornby A4 (and its sisters A1 A3 ) valve gear is a bit weedy , however looking at Faringdon, the awful fit of the Cylinder Covers is far more noticable to me at least.  It looks like the Finecast Body to me/  as their W1 was just as bad a fit in that area . As soon as Graeme made the A4 to W1 upgrade  mine was sold on, as it has such poor detail ,as on the juggernaut weighing Whitemetal Tender. As I model LNER the A4 valve gear is hardly seen behind the valances anyway.

It will be interesting to see what the A2/2/3 gear looks like on its arrival ,as that will will require complete new valve gear to be made.

The cylinder fit was as good as I could make it, Mick (I could make it perfect in Photoshop!). 

 

It is a Bachmann body on 60034 (packed with lead), which had the old Trix one as an ancestor!

 

The Graeme King conversions from an A4 to the W1 are excellent, but mine is all SE Finecast. It'll haul anything, which no Hornby-derived one will.

 

These might well have been seen before, but they are pertinent.......

 

 

David West's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

Tom Rance's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

 

My SE Finecast W1, painted by Ian Rathbone. Yes, a bit 'chunky' by comparison, but better-looking motion and great power.

 

 

It used to guest on Biggleswade.

 

 

Speaking of 'chunky', this is an SEF original W1 I sold on on behalf of a bereaved family (builder/painter unknown). What 'price' something like this in a year's time?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. I have no idea why this post has appeared twice!

Edited January 17, 2020 by Tony Wright

[2750Papyrus]

Have you been asked for help by Hornby with the Wi models?

[copleyhill007]

Tony may not remember - but here is his model of the W1 in 1979!

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Have you been asked for help by Hornby with the Wi models?

No, though I knew about it......

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, copleyhill007 said:

Tony may not remember - but here is his model of the W1 in 1979!

Gosh Dave,

 

Over 40 years ago! In fact, I built it in the mid-'70s, maybe still in my 20s (just). 

 

If I recall, it's a Wills A4 with  scratch-built firebox/cab, running on a scratch-built chassis with Jamieson valve gear. I painted it. 

 

Haven't things moved on? I'm not sure where it is now.

 

I suppose it's an example of how personal modelling can (must?) improve with experience. I look at that W1 and it's a bit naff, isn't it? No brakes, no beading round the cabside windows, and a bit of a fudged tender. It must have satisfied me over 40 years ago (if only just), but I think it's best to call it a 'product of its time'.

 

Thanks for posting the picture. Did you take it? I can't remember if I did. If I did, then my model photography has also improved over the last four and a bit decades! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The cylinder fit was as good as I could make it, Mick (I could make it perfect in Photoshop!). 

 

It is a Bachmann body on 60034 (packed with lead), which had the old Trix one as an ancestor!

 

The Graeme King conversions from an A4 to the W1 are excellent, but mine is all SE Finecast. It'll haul anything, which no Hornby-derived one will.

 

These might well have been seen before, but they are pertinent.......

 

 

David West's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

Tom Rance's Hornby/King W1.

 

 

 

My SE Finecast W1, painted by Ian Rathbone. Yes, a bit 'chunky' by comparison, but better-looking motion and great power.

 

 

It used to guest on Biggleswade.

 

 

Speaking of 'chunky', this is an SEF original W1 I sold on on behalf of a bereaved family (builder/painter unknown). What 'price' something like this in a year's time?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. I have no idea why this post has appeared twice!

My Hornby/King  W1'S, I cant find a photo of my old Finecast version at the moment .

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, micklner said:

My Hornby/King  W1'S, I cant find a photo of my old Finecast version at the moment .

 

 

 

Nice work, Mick,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Though it's all but invisible on the pre-War version, might it not be worth altering the angle of the return crank on the post-War one? On this side. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Nice work, Mick,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Though it's all but invisible on the pre-War version, might it not be worth altering the angle of the return crank on the post-War one? On this side. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony I will get the Hammer out !!

 

 

[ROY@34F]

8 hours ago, Kevin Roche said:

The High Dyke to Aldwarke Class C Iron Ore Train  was another interesting Freight working on The ECML. There was a regular service between High Dyke and Aldwarke for many years, utilising unfitted Iron Ore Tipplers, hauled by O2’s and occasional V2’s. Following a reorganisation in The Eastern Region Divisional Management Structure, a fully fitted C Service was introduced utilising vacuum fitted Iron Ore Tipplers in the distinctive bauxite livery. This Train only ran from March 1962 until March 1963, utilising A3’s from Grantham MPD and A1’s from elsewhere, loaded to about  27 wagons. However it proved difficult to keep the rake of vacuum fitted Tipplers together iin daily service. Apparently it was quite an experience in the early evening  when the train headed North through Grantham at 50mph as the driver got to work with the train.

Yes Kevin , I have fired on both those iron ore workings you mention . The loose coupled train with 02s as far as Doncaster in my time , where we would leave it in the down Decoy yard , and invariably come home light engine .

The fully fitted No1 speed train was Always one our A3s in on the few occasions I went on it . It was a No2 link job so not often for young chaps like me . But I used to swap fireman Jake Garland for his main line jobs sometimes  . Jake was the local poacher and If I was rostered up the Stainby branch dragging iron ore down to Highdyke , he would swap me so he could maybe bag a few pheasants !      Anyway I remember on the Aldwarke job going off the main line at Doncaster and squealing  round a sharp bend seemingly uphill a bit . Quite a drag going slow with 6' 8" A3 wheels . A challenge for the driver to make sure she "keeps her feet" . Also going "under the wires in the Sheffield area , which seemed a bit scary at the time   ( must remember to watch it if you wanted to use a fire iron !) , as we did a circular tour and rejoined the main line with the empties at Retford North . 

Happy days .

 

Regards , Roy.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, ROY@34F said:

Yes Kevin , I have fired on both those iron ore workings you mention . The loose coupled train with 02s as far as Doncaster in my time , where we would leave it in the down Decoy yard , and invariably come home light engine .

The fully fitted No1 speed train was Always one our A3s in on the few occasions I went on it . It was a No2 link job so not often for young chaps like me . But I used to swap fireman Jake Garland for his main line jobs sometimes  . Jake was the local poacher and If I was rostered up the Stainby branch dragging iron ore down to Highdyke , he would swap me so he could maybe bag a few pheasants !      Anyway I remember on the Aldwarke job going off the main line at Doncaster and squealing  round a sharp bend seemingly uphill a bit . Quite a drag going slow with 6' 8" A3 wheels . A challenge for the driver to make sure she "keeps her feet" . Also going "under the wires in the Sheffield area , which seemed a bit scary at the time   ( must remember to watch it if you wanted to use a fire iron !) , as we did a circular tour and rejoined the main line with the empties at Retford North . 

Happy days .

 

Regards , Roy.

Did you ever fire an A1 on the working, Roy?

 

There's a magnificent picture in Colin Walker's Trails of Steam, Volume 6, Trails Through Grantham of Class A1 60137 REDGAUNLET belting through Grantham on a High Dyke-Aldwarke fully-fitted (and very heavy) ironstone train. Strangely, the loco is Tyneside-based, or even at Tweedmouth! An odd diagram for a loco based far away? 

 

I've seen pictures like this where the caption writer has suggested 'What a come-down for a top-link Pacific'. Hardly; this must have been a very tough job indeed!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[APOLLO]

There's a bit of video of 60155 Borderer on an iron ore train in a  video Archive Series: West Riding Steam Part 1 DVD - by Cinerail. Could be the same train photographed below. 

 

More photos here  https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/with/3836417567/

 

 

Brit15

[45609]

Hi Tony

 

Regarding A4 cylinders on the Hornby body you may or may not recall that I bought this along to a running session at your place a few years ago now.

 

 

Yes there is a line visible on the cylinder side but I felt it was an acceptable compromise to get a good looking turn under.  Below the line the cylinder side is part of the chassis.  A fuller description of the model and constituent parts is at the end of this link (page 97 of your thread).

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page/97/&tab=comments#comment-1588616

 

 

Along with some of your excellent photos of my and David West's work

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page/97/&tab=comments#comment-1588196

 

Cheers...Morgan

Edited January 17, 2020 by 45609
added image in different way

[ROY@34F]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Did you ever fire an A1 on the working, Roy?

 

There's a magnificent picture in Colin Walker's Trails of Steam, Volume 6, Trails Through Grantham of Class A1 60137 REDGAUNLET belting through Grantham on a High Dyke-Aldwarke fully-fitted (and very heavy) ironstone train. Strangely, the loco is Tyneside-based, or even at Tweedmouth! An odd diagram for a loco based far away? 

 

I've seen pictures like this where the caption writer has suggested 'What a come-down for a top-link Pacific'. Hardly; this must have been a very tough job indeed!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

No I didn't Tony . As say , it was a job in No2 link and not generally for the likes of my seniority . But I did go on it a few times , always an A3 . Indeed , I can't recall seeing an Ai on it , though as you say there is one in Colin Walker's book . But they would be well boss of it I think . As you know with slightly higher boiler pressure , and slightly bigger cylinder diameter I believe : is that correct ? They were certainly a powerful , free steaming engine .

 

Regards,

 

Roy.

[t-b-g]

36 minutes ago, 45609 said:

Hi Tony

 

Regarding A4 cylinders on the Hornby body you may or may not recall that I bought this along to a running session at your place a few years ago now.

 

 

Yes there is a line visible on the cylinder side but I felt it was an acceptable compromise to get a good looking turn under.  Below the line the cylinder side is part of the chassis.  A fuller description of the model and constituent parts is at the end of this link (page 97 of your thread).

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page/97/&tab=comments#comment-1588616

 

 

Along with some of your excellent photos of my and Davis West's work

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page/97/&tab=comments#comment-1588196

 

Cheers...Morgan

 

The cylinders on that look so much better Morgan. So does the valve gear with the multi layer expansion link. I presume they were made from your own design etches.

 

Lovely stuff.

 

Tony (Gee)