Wright writes.....

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

A slight aside to this, if I may.

 

There are people who will willingly make excellent layouts, really top class stuff, who will fail their own standards when it comes to making things like locomotives or rolling stock. To complement the layout standard, the modeller 'might' go a bit further afield to have what that person might like. 

 

A modern version of a person having a nice house, and a Ferrari on the driveway. You might have created  one, but probably not the other!

 

Happy modelling/collecting/admiring/operating

 

Ian.

Tom,

 

they probably wouldn't have built their house or made the majority of things they decorated it with.

 

16 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

 

An interesting comment on Radio 4's The Life Scientific  this morning from Nobel Prize winner Sir Peter Ratcliffe  when he expressed the view that with so much "information" available nowadays, we spend less on education. 

 

[tomparryharry]

35 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

 

Very few, I would say. Technical schools need technical teachers, which, in deference to said teachers, are like Rocking Horse Manure. 

[Chamby]

I was privileged to know the late Joe Rowe, who built his own locomotives from scratch, including making, moulding and casting the wheels.  He was a master at his craft, and a toolmaker by trade who developed his remarkable skills working at de Havilland.  His highly developed work skills were readily transferred to his modelling hobby.

 

When you see a factory in the news these days, it appears to be mostly full of robots, tirelessly performing precision tasks in the background.  I believe that it is the loss of practical skills in the workplace that has had a direct impact on how most people participate in this hobby.  Yes, this is reflected in what is taught in our schools too, but in our services-led economy, we are now mostly a nation of consumers, rather than people who make things.

 

So whilst we might lament the shift away from making our own stuff, we must also accept that our hobby has transformed as a result.  If it hadn’t, then it would probably be a very tiny minority interest by now.

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Chamby said:

I was privileged to know the late Joe Rowe, who built his own locomotives from scratch, including making, moulding and casting the wheels.  He was a master at his craft, and a toolmaker by trade who developed his remarkable skills working at de Havilland.  His highly developed work skills were readily transferred to his modelling hobby.

 

When you see a factory in the news these days, it appears to be mostly full of robots, tirelessly performing precision tasks in the background.  I believe that it is the loss of practical skills in the workplace that has had a direct impact on how most people participate in this hobby.  Yes, this is reflected in what is taught in our schools too, but in our services-led economy, we are now mostly a nation of consumers, rather than people who make things.

 

So whilst we might lament the shift away from making our own stuff, we must also accept that our hobby has transformed as a result.  If it hadn’t, then it would probably be a very tiny minority interest by now.

I knew Joe Rowe, and I had the privilege of photographing some of his masterpieces.

 

I think it's safe to say that there are probably more folk interested in the hobby than at any other time (Stafford's numbers were up), especially among adults, but I'd think there are fewer in number actually making things than in the past.

 

Not on here, of course.........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

I think it's safe to say that there are probably more folk interested in the hobby than at any other time (Stafford's numbers were up), especially among adults, but I'd think there are fewer in number actually making things than in the past.

 

 

With the advent of Computers and digital drawing .... coupled to rendering and modelling packages ....  most pieces of machinery are now computer controlled and the skill part lies with the design  ... so CNC lathes/Milling machines/Laser cutters - and that is before you get to such things as 3d printing. As such why would you teach the old skills now in schools? 

 

What is interesting to me is the desire to revive old skills which seems a key part and attraction of the hobby world .... and we see this right across the board not just with engineering.

 

I suspect were we to have subsidised courses teaching such skills (making them affordable to attend as a hobbyist), then people would be surprised at the level of interest.

 

What's more, with the advent of such platforms as Youtube, the scope to teach oneself and develop skills has increased exponentially, and my own experience is that people are incredibly generous with there help and advice.

 

As an example, Imagine being able to access demonstrations and guidance like this 30 years ago .... almost no chance... Being able to actually watch someone do a task is worth 10 articles on the subject.

 

 

Interesting times.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

 

It was certainly going out of fashion when I went to secondary school in the early 1980s.

 

We did a bit of the basics but nothing serious. There was quite a few pupils who wanted to do it though, mostly the woodwork side as quite a few of them ended up on training schemes making furniture.

 

Replaced by something called CDT (Craft, Design and Technology) which was meant to merge both woodwork and metalwork with Technical Drawing. Even included textiles.

 

There was also a newfangled thing called Plasticwork….

 

 

Jason

[PupCam]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

 

I was fortunate that, in the early 70's when I was in secondary education we had both fully equipped woodworking and metalwork shops.  The metalwork shop had numerous lathes, mills, drills and a forge.   As light relief from A Levels I chose to do metalwork and started to construct a 2.5" gauge "Austere Ada" locomotive. 

 

Here's what it might have looked like:

https://www.stationroadsteam.com/2-12-inch-gauge-wd-2-8-0-austere-ada-stock-code-7284/

 

Ah, the optimism of youth in what could be achieved in 4hrs/week during school terms.    Unfortunately my skill level did not match the level of optimism (ignorance?) and the project floundered at the main frame and front pony truck stage (and even they weren't very good!) but at least I had a go.   I've still got the drawings for it and a 2.5" gauge V2 and having recently, at last, had the opportunity to buy a Myford lathe perhaps I should have another crack at it?   

 

Probably lacking sufficient time left on the planet now though .....

 

I've also got a 1/3 scale Sopwith Triplane to finish, a 30% Chilton monoplane to repair and some old bikes to keep on the road.  So much to do, so little time!

 

Alan

[RLBH]

38 minutes ago, PupCam said:

I was fortunate that, in the early 70's when I was in secondary education we had both fully equipped woodworking and metalwork shops.  The metalwork shop had numerous lathes, mills, drills and a forge.   As light relief from A Levels I chose to do metalwork and started to construct a 2.5" gauge "Austere Ada" locomotive. 

I wonder if my school was something of a relic - in the early 2000s we had two apiece of wood workshops, metal workshops, and (hand!) draughting rooms, and an electronics workshop as well. I only did two years of what we called 'Craft and Design', but at least learnt my way around a lathe and pillar drill in that time. The milling machines and forge were reserved for more advanced students; I wanted to do woodwork in my final year for light relief but it wouldn't fit my timetable.

 

From what my wife says, the school is a bit of a timewarp, so all the machines are probably still there. Whether the staff know how to use them - much less have permission to do so - is another matter altogether!

Edited February 4, 2020 by RLBH

[Andy Reichert]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I knew Joe Rowe, and I had the privilege of photographing some of his masterpieces.

 

I think it's safe to say that there are probably more folk interested in the hobby than at any other time (Stafford's numbers were up), especially among adults, but I'd think there are fewer in number actually making things than in the past.

 

Not on here, of course.........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I blame small screens and "aps" like Minecraft.  We now have entire new generations who think that creativity is putting "perfect" pieces of simulated hardware together and watching them function as interacting moving parts, regardless of the laws of physics, tolerances and strength of materials.  And for them, the results are just fine, because you see they are on the screen. And there is no incentive or system, or instant gratification time for them to bother to build them in real life.

 

At the other end if the modelling scale, we have very few old-time skilled craftsman who can over a fairly long time scratch build or assemble an imperfect etched kit, and "fettle" whatever isn't quite right to produce a fabulous, fully working, "one-off".

 

The problem with both directions is that thriving economies need designers and operators who understand the realities of engineering, and can also set up and handle the modern machinery that can produce the fully working "one off's" over and over, with each being perfect copies and zero fettling  or "adjust on test".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hollar]

27 minutes ago, RLBH said:

I wonder if my school was something of a relic - in the early 2000s we had two apiece of wood workshops, metal workshops, and (hand!) draughting rooms, and an electronics workshop as well. I only did two years of what we called 'Craft and Design', but at least learnt my way around a lathe and pillar drill in that time. The milling machines and forge were reserved for more advanced students; I wanted to do woodwork in my final year for light relief but it wouldn't fit my timetable.

 

From what my wife says, the school is a bit of a timewarp, so all the machines are probably still there. Whether the staff know how to use them - much less have permission to do so - is another matter altogether!

Unusually my school (in the 60s) was classed as multilateral.  Essentially it was a grammar and a secondary modern sharing a site, but in practice it had separate buildings, separate staff (and staff rooms) and the two streams of children only really came together for sports and the weekly school mass.  Everyone in the grammar streams knew where the metalwork shop was because it was directly underneath the 5th year GCE grammar classrooms (which gives you a flavour of how well the school was organised). 

 

As a grammar boy I never went into the metalwork room except once to give the teacher a message; and I didn't know where the woodwork room was until 6th form when I stumbled on it while doing the lights for the school opera, and looking for the lighting store. 

 

Write this down I suddenly feel me age.

[FarrMan]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It was certainly going out of fashion when I went to secondary school in the early 1980s.

 

We did a bit of the basics but nothing serious. There was quite a few pupils who wanted to do it though, mostly the woodwork side as quite a few of them ended up on training schemes making furniture.

 

Replaced by something called CDT (Craft, Design and Technology) which was meant to merge both woodwork and metalwork with Technical Drawing. Even included textiles.

 

There was also a newfangled thing called Plasticwork….

 

 

Jason

This is one of the differences between England and Scotland. In England it was an all inclusive Craft, Design and Technology, which appeared to cover about everything that vaguely came under that heading, whereas in Scotland, it was Technological Education, which covered practical skills in woodwork and metalwork (including lathes), with various forms of plastic work, electronic systems, structures and Tech drawing, including CAD. In Secondary 3, they started their Standard Grades, where you could do Craft and Design, which was more practical skills, Graphic Communications which included Tech drawing, but also covered some towards the Art side, or Technological Studies, which was more the technical aspects of pneumatics, Electronics, structures, etc. I don't know how much it has changed in the last 22 years since I gave up techy teaching. We also used the forge, and I remember vividly one school where I was supply teaching for 5 weeks, and in that time 6 pupils managed to burn their hands at the forge. I never had any trouble with it anywhere else. I could understand it if their bit of steel was hot but still grey and they picked it up in their bare hands, but not when it was cherry red!

 

Lloyd

[JamieR4489]

6 hours ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

I'm currently at secondary school and we still have 2 lathes, a milling machine, several pillar drills and hegna saws and a band saw (although we're not allowed to use that as the school are worried we could slice our fingers off). We've even got a foundry/forge, welding equipment and blow torches. This is on top of all the basic tools: chisels, saws, etc.

A sign of the times, however, is that we've also got 2 3D printers and 2 laser cutters.

The next nearest secondary school has very little practical equipment and I'm told that the students do a year of theory and then a year of practical stuff, so perhaps we're just lucky.

 

Jamie

[2750Papyrus]

On ‎03‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 18:27, Tony Wright said:

Speaking of Isinglass and 3D-Printing, I have the Pigeon Van to review for BRM......

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I'm looking forward to your review. 

 

I looked at the isinglass kits at the Stevenage show and they seem to provide a means of producing quite a wide range of LNER and constituent prototypes unlikely to be made available by other means.  I was particularly taken by the 6 wheel bogie catering vehicle built for the 1906 Sheffield stock, and I see that the 1932 buffet car conversion is available - scope for a model of a Cambridge "beer train".  Any possibility you could finish the review sample in teak rather than in BR livery?

[RLBH]

2 hours ago, FarrMan said:

This is one of the differences between England and Scotland. In England it was an all inclusive Craft, Design and Technology, which appeared to cover about everything that vaguely came under that heading, whereas in Scotland, it was Technological Education, which covered practical skills in woodwork and metalwork (including lathes), with various forms of plastic work, electronic systems, structures and Tech drawing, including CAD. In Secondary 3, they started their Standard Grades, where you could do Craft and Design, which was more practical skills, Graphic Communications which included Tech drawing, but also covered some towards the Art side, or Technological Studies, which was more the technical aspects of pneumatics, Electronics, structures, etc. I don't know how much it has changed in the last 22 years since I gave up techy teaching. We also used the forge, and I remember vividly one school where I was supply teaching for 5 weeks, and in that time 6 pupils managed to burn their hands at the forge. I never had any trouble with it anywhere else. I could understand it if their bit of steel was hot but still grey and they picked it up in their bare hands, but not when it was cherry red!

 

Lloyd

That's certainly how it worked when I did my Highers in Graphic Communication and Technological Studies - when I did it, that was mostly electronics with a bit of pneumatics and a module on structural analysis. The former has been very useful in my career as an engineer, the latter less so - mostly because of the kind of engineering I do.

 

Was discussing this with my wife (who works in education) earlier, she agrees that it's probably an Anglo-Scottish difference.

[polybear]

5 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

As an example, Imagine being able to access demonstrations and guidance like this 30 years ago .... almost no chance... Being able to actually watch someone do a task is worth 10 articles on the subject.

 

 

Interesting times.

 

Are there any videos showing how to afford those two Brass sheets?

[Manxcat]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

This is wonderful work, Archie,

 

Thanks so much for showing us all. 

 

Just one (or three) thing(s) puzzles (puzzle) me. Why, when you can model to this high-standard, did you need me to build an A7 and a K3 for you, and buy a ready-built A2/1 off me?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Two reasons. Firstly so that I can say "Tony Wright built that for me so I knew it would be unique and would run sweetly straight out of its (non-RTR) box".

 

Secondly, because I have spent so much time over the last three years wiring and making points, signals, buildings and scenery for the club layout that there has been little time left to try loco construction. I did make time to paint the A7 though which I was pleased turned out quite nicely.

 

When you see Phoenix Lane at the show your influence will be clear in as much as every steam loco will have lamps and, where practical, no front tension lock coupling. Now you have me pondering what to do when a loco with fixed lamps needs to run round, the lamps then being at the wrong end. Modeller's Licence for that one move perhaps. I am privileged that my fellow club members have agreed to run the layout with just my rolling stock on the Friday and Saturday. All my steam and diesel locos are weathered. So are all the goods wagons and some of my coaches. 

 

I expect a crowd two or three deep at times which, for me at least, is one of the joys of exhibiting. 

 

Archie

 

[PupCam]

54 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Are there any videos showing how to afford those two Brass sheets?

 

Don't know about that, but I like the look of that filing machine!

 

Alan

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I'm looking forward to your review. 

 

I looked at the isinglass kits at the Stevenage show and they seem to provide a means of producing quite a wide range of LNER and constituent prototypes unlikely to be made available by other means.  I was particularly taken by the 6 wheel bogie catering vehicle built for the 1906 Sheffield stock, and I see that the 1932 buffet car conversion is available - scope for a model of a Cambridge "beer train".  Any possibility you could finish the review sample in teak rather than in BR livery?

 'Any possibility you could finish the review sample in teak rather than in BR livery?'

 

I'm not sure..........

 

I already have two in crimson/maroon, built by Rob Davey and the late Dave Shakespeare respectively from Chivers kits.

 

I built the one below some two+ years ago from a D&S kit for Ian Wilson. Geoff Haynes painted it.

 

 

When it first appeared on here there was some discussion about whether the 'W'irons should be inside or outside the springs. It varied.

 

The Isinglass kit looks to be accurate. All I've done so far is to separate the components from their sprues........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Are there any videos showing how to afford those two Brass sheets?

Try a patreon page with 5,600 monthly subscribers 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Are there any videos showing how to afford those two Brass sheets?

He probably regards his raw material costs as next to nothing, against the investment he made in the machinery he has. 

[PupCam]

7 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

With the advent of Computers and digital drawing .... coupled to rendering and modelling packages ....  most pieces of machinery are now computer controlled and the skill part lies with the design  ... so CNC lathes/Milling machines/Laser cutters - and that is before you get to such things as 3d printing. As such why would you teach the old skills now in schools? 

 

What is interesting to me is the desire to revive old skills which seems a key part and attraction of the hobby world .... and we see this right across the board not just with engineering.

 

I suspect were we to have subsidised courses teaching such skills (making them affordable to attend as a hobbyist), then people would be surprised at the level of interest.

 

What's more, with the advent of such platforms as Youtube, the scope to teach oneself and develop skills has increased exponentially, and my own experience is that people are incredibly generous with there help and advice.

 

As an example, Imagine being able to access demonstrations and guidance like this 30 years ago .... almost no chance... Being able to actually watch someone do a task is worth 10 articles on the subject.

 

 

Interesting times.

 

Well thanks for that, another hour gone watching 6 or 7 episodes and another YouTube subscription added to the list!

 

Although it's not railway modelling they show someone (clearly skilled) making a thing of beauty and passing on tips and techniques that have application beyond, in this case, clock making.  I'm sure I'll find a use for the "glue chuck", a simple home made device for turning thin sheet parts and if only I'd had one of those filing machines when making the sheet steel fittings for my Sopwith!

 

Most of all I think they underpin Tony's key message (which I've picked up on this thread!) that is the joy and satisfaction of making things for yourself, whatever those things happen to be.

 

Here's the first railway modelling I've done in perhaps 20 years.  The simple pleasure of assembling a 7mm 16T Mineral wagon.   From small acorns .....

 

Alan

Edited February 4, 2020 by PupCam
Added wagon photograph

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder how many Secondary Schools actually teach Metalwork and Woodwork now?  Using Lathes, Saws, Chisels, Brazing equipment etc.? 

I'll hazard a guess that this sort of thing isn't taught nowadays not because of H&S (which is often implemented by people who don't actually understand the subject), but because there isn't seen to be a need for those skills any more.  Such a high proportion is expected to follow an academic and not a vocational career, having a "trade" still sadly invites snobbery in Britain.

To be fair, some very basic woodwork skills can probably help with DIY in adulthood, but my school metalwork wasn't much use for anything, even though I went on the become a Mechanical Engineer.

[APOLLO]

Ahh woodwork - Wigan Grammar School early 60's. the wonderful Mr Cooper - Woodwork teacher --

 

"Hall - last year, before you came into this class a bottle of Dettol would last a whole term - now 4 weeks in and the bottle is empty" -- (OUCH !!)

 

Never my favourite or best subject - but I tried "". My layout woodwork is heavily built (3" x 2"), doesn't look nice but I can stand on it !! No fancy joints though.

 

As for "Jasper" our metalwork teacher - even worse - though we made useless 87 degree angle brackets and useful fishing rod rests !!!!

 

Happy, painful days !!

 

Brit15

[Andy Hayter]

Sounds a lot like my woodworking efforts Apollo

[Lecorbusier]

30 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

He probably regards his raw material costs as next to nothing, against the investment he made in the machinery he has. 

I think the answer is both yes and no ... and I think it is a little more than a hobby for him now, though it started as one.

 

Much of the machinery has been collected second hand over time, same with the hand tools. The materials as I understand it are sourced via local machine shops and other professional sources who buy in bulk ... so not at hobby shop or small supplier prices.

 

Looking at his other videos he wastes very little with all off cuts put to use ... he has one video where he smelts down old taps to cast a housing for a Byzantine portable sundial that he is making ... but you have to subscribe on patreon for 1 dollar to watch that one!