RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Very true - but difficult to build a vehicle exactly to designed weight. Regards, John Isherwood. I'm not so sure about BR standard bake vans with those big ballast slabs on the ends but most brake vans were ballasted with iron or steel weights, so any deviation from the nominal weight is down to the accuracy of the ballasting, which I suppose would depend upon the size of the ballast weights used. I have been told that for many years Great Western brakes were ballasted with the cast iron GWR and number plates removed from wagons when the livery change to large painted initials came in in 1904. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 15 hours ago, Erichill16 said: Regards Robert I'm not an authority here (hopefully a railwayman will be along to give a definitive answer), but it seems to me that plates loaded like that would be dangerous because a rough shunt would see the ropes sliced through and the top plate over the end of the wagon. I believe they were laid loose but only below the height of the sides and ends. I'm not sure about the packing between plates - for me that would encourage them to slide. On the invaluable Railway Archive site there's an accident report from around 1942 where loose plates in such a wagon were knocked about in a shunt so they projected onto an adjacent running line, where they then sliced into the carriages of a passing troop train causing several fatalities. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2020 Talking of routings, here in the box we have a copy of a wagon ticket for 'fruit by goods train'. It is dated 23-7-1952 and is for 210 packages of plums and 4 of apples. Its from Littleport to London Road Nottingham E Region GN section. The routing is the strange bit: Via March, Grimsby and Sleaford.... The March and Grimsby look overwritten over a rubbing out, so perhaps it went astray on route? Otherwise its a really roundabout route for fruit... Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: I'm not so sure about BR standard bake vans with those big ballast slabs on the ends but most brake vans were ballasted with iron or steel weights, so any deviation from the nominal weight is down to the accuracy of the ballasting, which I suppose would depend upon the size of the ballast weights used. I have been told that for many years Great Western brakes were ballasted with the cast iron GWR and number plates removed from wagons when the livery change to large painted initials came in in 1904. I presume, therefore, that there must have been a hatch in the van floor into which scrap could be dropped whilst the van stood on the weighbridge. A bit like an old fashioned confectioner weighing out sweets - keep (reluctantly) dropping the sweets in to the scales pan until it just twiched! Regards, John Isherwood. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Plates and bars, an extract. Instructions and diagrams etc. 1956 Original document Copyright BRB Residuary, courtesy of N Rushby PDF J D Faulkner. Edited February 16, 2020 by Headstock add date 4 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2020 Full document here, along with others in the same series - the lost art of wagonload traffic handling - courtesy of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2020 19 hours ago, Tony Wright said: How could a loaf of bread get rid of anything from a skateboard? Or vice-versa. 2 hours ago, BMacdermott said: Firstly, my wife's parents ran a fish & chip shop in Bowes Park, north London, during the late 40s and very early 50s. My mother-in-law remembers that they could order fish from Grimbsy one day and collect it next day from Bowes Park station. Can anyone suggest how this delivery would have been achieved? Probably in boxes loaded on to passenger trains's brake vans as express parcels. I had a Sunday pm dmu turn to Hereford when I was a guard at Canton in the 70s which frequently carried fresh caught Wye salmon packed in canvas bags in ice, routed to London for one or other of the big hotels, transferred on to an up Padd at Newport. The size of some of these fishes was impressive, and they were worth a few bob! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 hours ago, uax6 said: Talking of routings, here in the box we have a copy of a wagon ticket for 'fruit by goods train'. It is dated 23-7-1952 and is for 210 packages of plums and 4 of apples. Its from Littleport to London Road Nottingham E Region GN section. The routing is the strange bit: Via March, Grimsby and Sleaford.... The March and Grimsby look overwritten over a rubbing out, so perhaps it went astray on route? Otherwise its a really roundabout route for fruit... Andy G Maybe a delay rather than a misrouting. Traffic of this sort was dispatched by different routings at different times of day according to the fastest method of getting it to the destination. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 hours ago, jwealleans said: I'm not an authority here (hopefully a railwayman will be along to give a definitive answer), but it seems to me that plates loaded like that would be dangerous because a rough shunt would see the ropes sliced through and the top plate over the end of the wagon. I believe they were laid loose but only below the height of the sides and ends. I'm not sure about the packing between plates - for me that would encourage them to slide. On the invaluable Railway Archive site there's an accident report from around 1942 where loose plates in such a wagon were knocked about in a shunt so they projected onto an adjacent running line, where they then sliced into the carriages of a passing troop train causing several fatalities. Thanks to you and Andrew for the information. I read somewhere that steel plate was packed with wood where it was not possible to lift it out using an electo-magnet. When packing was used it obviously reduced the height of the load. Does anybody know loading regs regarding lorries. What could be loaded on the lorry below. Regards Robert 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Headstock said: Robert, the best thing about this thread is seeing what other people are modelling. I always find it most interesting and inspirational. There are always obstacles to overcome, I am not one of those people that thinks the hobby should be fun, fun, fun all the time. Sometimes you have to put the work in, deal with the tedious bits and overcome those vexing problems (sometimes with a little help) to reap the benefits, the good bits become richer as a result. I think that this thread is of great value in that process and your contributions can only enhance that. Afternoon Andrew, you are so right in what you say. I often get bogged down as I work mostly on my own. I like a challenge but I still aim to have fun and I don’t really mind the tedious jobs if I can be distracted by the radio or some music. The Hunslet is my most prized model as it was the most challenging (but not difficult) to build. That’s why I was so happy when Tony breathed on it. It was over Christmas that I first started reading this thread and it has given me inspiration to crack on. so thanks to you all. regards robert 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted February 16, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Headstock said: Robert, the best thing about this thread is seeing what other people are modelling. I always find it most interesting and inspirational. There are always obstacles to overcome, I am not one of those people that thinks the hobby should be fun, fun, fun all the time. Sometimes you have to put the work in, deal with the tedious bits and overcome those vexing problems (sometimes with a little help) to reap the benefits, the good bits become richer as a result. I think that this thread is of great value in that process and your contributions can only enhance that. There are always obstacles to overcome, I am not one of those people that thinks the hobby should be fun, fun, fun all the time. Sometimes you have to put the work in, deal with the tedious bits and overcome those vexing problems (sometimes with a little help) to reap the benefits, the good bits become richer as a result.' At last, a voice full of sound common sense regarding how one approaches making things. Of course, a hobby should be fun (otherwise, why indulge in it?), but it can't always be so (one of my hobbies was playing cricket, and I can tell you it was no fun at all when the likes of Gwillum Williams of Caersws CC put the balls I bowled to him into the Severn on several occasions!) and one has to knuckle down and work hard. I'm reticent with regard to finishing off the point rodding on LB, because it's a tedious and time-consuming job. It must, however, be completed. More and more I hear at shows when I act as a demonstrator 'I couldn't possibly do that'. When I ask 'Have you tried?' the answer is usually 'No!' Even the making of a simple Parkside kit seems beyond many, yet they still wish to participate in the hobby. That is their right, of course, but they're missing out on the most-rewarding thing in this hobby; the most 'fun' - the personal making of things. Thank goodness for the likes of Ian Nuttall's robust letter in the current RM! Speaking of making things, at every show I attend these days I'll make a Parkside wagon kit. I bought this one yesterday morning at the Biggleswade Show, and by close of play it was complete....... I painted it this morning. It's an ex-GWR 'Prize Cattle Wagon ('Beetle', I believe). How common such a thing might have been at LB, I have no idea, but it makes-up well. There is a slight 'halo' around the transfers, but weathering awaits. Though I admit 'wagons are not my thing', if I can inspire any 'ditherers' at shows to actually make something for themselves, then I'll consider it a success. Then they'll have fun! Regards, Tony. 30 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 8 hours ago, BMacdermott said: Hello Tony and everyone I wonder if anyone can help with these questions... Firstly, my wife's parents ran a fish & chip shop in Bowes Park, north London, during the late 40s and very early 50s. My mother-in-law remembers that they could order fish from Grimbsy one day and collect it next day from Bowes Park station. Can anyone suggest how this delivery would have been achieved? Secondly, can anyone tell me what duties No.60700 would have been involved with in its last year or so of working? Many thanks Brian Good evening Brian, 60700's usual job towards the end of its life (in fact for several years) was a Doncaster-Kings Cross return principal stations express - Up in the morning and returning late afternoon. Its train was usually too long for Retford's platforms, and passengers in the rear cars expecting to alight would have to walk forward. It was on this return duty in 1955 when its bogie frame broke at low speed shortly after leaving Peterborough, resulting in it almost demolishing Westwood 'box as it derailed and slid forward! Regards, Tony. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Brian. I cant really remember the 40s but in the early 50s there was I think a passenger train (via Boston Spalding and Peterborough) that left Grimsby about 14:00 and it always had about 3 box vans with fish attached to the rear. As I remember the 1st fitted fish train to London (via Boston Spalding and Peterborough) left about 15:00 putting it in London probably about midnight giving ample time for delivery to local fishmongers, especially if they were willing to pay a premium which I believe some did. After 15:00 normally there would be at least two more fish trains although I am not sure if the complete train went all the way through to London. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Speaking of making things, at every show I attend these days I'll make a Parkside wagon kit. I bought this one yesterday morning at the Biggleswade Show, and by close of play it was complete....... I painted it this morning. It's an ex-GWR 'Prize Cattle Wagon ('Beetle', I believe). How common such a thing might have been at LB, I have no idea, but it makes-up well. There is a slight 'halo' around the transfers, but weathering awaits. Tony, With all due respect ..... expecially as you're demonstrating, applying the (waterslide) transfers should be done so as to avoid the "halo" around them - so many people have an aversion to waterslide transfers because they don't know the correct way to do it and hate the "halo". First - acquire some quick-drying acrylic GLOSS varnish - I use the old fashioned Johnson's Klear floor lacquer, but I'm assured that the latest iteration of the product is just as effective; see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pledge-Klear-Multi-Surface-Wax/dp/B008HFVO32 Apply the lacquer to the areas that are to have transfers applied - it dries in minutes. Apply the transfers in the normal way, and let them dry. Apply another coat of the lacquer over the transfers to seal them. If at any point the lacquer goes milky, panic not ! ....it will dry clear. Weather away to your heart's content - I start with a waft of Testors Dullcote. There really is no avoiding the gloss finish BEFORE applying transfers if you want to avoid the "halo" - and weathering doesn't completely hide it once it's there. You wouldn't short-cut the valvegear on one of your big LNER Pacifics - putting on transfers deserves the same attention. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited February 16, 2020 by cctransuk 2 2 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 59 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: There are always obstacles to overcome, I am not one of those people that thinks the hobby should be fun, fun, fun all the time. Sometimes you have to put the work in, deal with the tedious bits and overcome those vexing problems (sometimes with a little help) to reap the benefits, the good bits become richer as a result.' At last, a voice full of sound common sense regarding how one approaches making things. Of course, a hobby should be fun (otherwise, why indulge in it?), but it can't always be so (one of my hobbies was playing cricket, and I can tell you it was no fun at all when the likes of Gwillum Williams of Caersws CC put the balls I bowled to him into the Severn on several occasions!) and one has to knuckle down and work hard. I'm reticent with regard to finishing off the point rodding on LB, because it's a tedious and time-consuming job. It must, however, be completed. More and more I hear at shows when I act as a demonstrator 'I couldn't possibly do that'. When I ask 'Have you tried?' the answer is usually 'No!' Even the making of a simple Parkside kit seems beyond many, yet they still wish to participate in the hobby. That is their right, of course, but they're missing out on the most-rewarding thing in this hobby; the most 'fun' - the personal making of things. Thank goodness for the likes of Ian Nuttall's robust letter in the current RM! Speaking of making things, at every show I attend these days I'll make a Parkside wagon kit. I bought this one yesterday morning at the Biggleswade Show, and by close of play it was complete....... I painted it this morning. It's an ex-GWR 'Prize Cattle Wagon ('Beetle', I believe). How common such a thing might have been at LB, I have no idea, but it makes-up well. There is a slight 'halo' around the transfers, but weathering awaits. Though I admit 'wagons are not my thing', if I can inspire any 'ditherers' at shows to actually make something for themselves, then I'll consider it a success. Then they'll have fun! Regards, Tony. Having seen this at about 10.15 yesterday, I must say I am impressed at the speed with which you complete your assembly and painting, which I always find the worst part! Your photos of the completed wagon show it "parked" outside the LB goods shed, I built my own version of the Prototype Models' kit some 20 years ago, along with their GN station building, engine shed and signal box. I roofed both the goods and engine sheds with overlaid strips of the Prototype Models' slate paper, stuck down with PVA glue. Whilst they have lasted well, the roofs have taken on a distinct green shade! I know that some PVA can turn ballast green but haven't heard of this effect before. I am in the process of reconditioning all the buildings, including building the timbered extension to the Stamford engine shed not included in the kit, This refurbishment has included fitting gutters and drain (soil?) pipes. I believe the non-canopied side of the goods shed had two simple drain pipes but haven't found any pictures of the arrangement on the canopy side. Please may I ask if you know the arrangement of drain pipes on this side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: There are always obstacles to overcome, I am not one of those people that thinks the hobby should be fun, fun, fun all the time. Sometimes you have to put the work in, deal with the tedious bits and overcome those vexing problems (sometimes with a little help) to reap the benefits, the good bits become richer as a result.' At last, a voice full of sound common sense regarding how one approaches making things. Of course, a hobby should be fun (otherwise, why indulge in it?), but it can't always be so (one of my hobbies was playing cricket, and I can tell you it was no fun at all when the likes of Gwillum Williams of Caersws CC put the balls I bowled to him into the Severn on several occasions!) and one has to knuckle down and work hard. I'm reticent with regard to finishing off the point rodding on LB, because it's a tedious and time-consuming job. It must, however, be completed. More and more I hear at shows when I act as a demonstrator 'I couldn't possibly do that'. When I ask 'Have you tried?' the answer is usually 'No!' Even the making of a simple Parkside kit seems beyond many, yet they still wish to participate in the hobby. That is their right, of course, but they're missing out on the most-rewarding thing in this hobby; the most 'fun' - the personal making of things. Thank goodness for the likes of Ian Nuttall's robust letter in the current RM! Speaking of making things, at every show I attend these days I'll make a Parkside wagon kit. I bought this one yesterday morning at the Biggleswade Show, and by close of play it was complete....... I painted it this morning. It's an ex-GWR 'Prize Cattle Wagon ('Beetle', I believe). How common such a thing might have been at LB, I have no idea, but it makes-up well. There is a slight 'halo' around the transfers, but weathering awaits. Though I admit 'wagons are not my thing', if I can inspire any 'ditherers' at shows to actually make something for themselves, then I'll consider it a success. Then they'll have fun! Regards, Tony. Dear All, i find the most vexing, stressful and tedious aspects of the hobby are usually associated with exhibition time. Whether as an exhibitor trying to meet a deadline or as a member of the organising comittee rejigging the Hall layout at the last minute. Regards Robert (ex treasurer and deputy exhibition manager) 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 For anyone who is'nt already aware. Add Microsol to the surface of the decal , it will the settle into the grooves and flatten onto the main surface of the model. Once dry then seal with the prefered varnish. 5 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Erichill16 said: Thanks to you and Andrew for the information. I read somewhere that steel plate was packed with wood where it was not possible to lift it out using an electo-magnet. When packing was used it obviously reduced the height of the load. Does anybody know loading regs regarding lorries. What could be loaded on the lorry below. Regards Robert Hello, My father was a driver in the fifties and sixties of such vehicles. Apparently every driver knew to secure sheet steel at either end as well as the sides with chains.Tales of drivers that had not where quite gruesome with regards to the driver's demise . Decapitations and bodies cut in half were the fare of many tales. trustytrev. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 minute ago, trustytrev said: Hello, My father was a driver in the fifties and sixties of such vehicles. Apparently every driver knew to secure sheet steel at either end as well as the sides with chains.Tales of drivers that had not where quite gruesome with regards to the driver's demise . Decapitations and bodies cut in half were the fare of many tales. trustytrev. Thanks for the info. I was wondering if this type of trailer was used for something else other that sheet material. I’ll get on with the load if I can find some chain fine enough. I’ve seen hooks down the side of lorries and trailers but wonder how the loads would be chained lengthways. Remeber an incident as you described happening near where I lived when I was a child. Mum wouldn’t let me out of house until the incident had been ‘cleaned up’. regards Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Hello, Much like tanks on low loaders. From side hooks across the front and down the other side both ways to stop forward movement. If that makes any sense? Same done at the rear. trustytrev. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Tony Wright said: There is a slight 'halo' around the transfers, but weathering awaits. The 'halo' effect (otherwise usually known as 'silvering') is where decals dry and trap air underneath. This happens if they are applied to matt/flat paint which doesn't have a completely flat and smooth surface but contains microscopic pits which scatter the light to prevent it looking shiny. Therefore, as mentioned, it is best to apply decals to a gloss finish as that is a lot smoother than matt. The use of a decal setting agent can help make the decal sit down and adhere to contortions in the surface but is best used in conjunction with a gloss surface. Apparently if you apply the decal solution in conjunction with applying the decal to a matt paint finish, the microscopic pits will cause resistance to the decal as the solution softens and settles it, which may result in the transfer not flattening out completely and leaving wrinkles and creases. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Erichill16 said: Thanks for the info. I was wondering if this type of trailer was used for something else other that sheet material. I’ll get on with the load if I can find some chain fine enough. I’ve seen hooks down the side of lorries and trailers but wonder how the loads would be chained lengthways. Remember an incident as you described happening near where I lived when I was a child. Mum wouldn’t let me out of house until the incident had been ‘cleaned up’. regards Robert Beaten to it. In the seventies (I can't recall further back) my dad used a large ratchet device he used to call a 'Warwick' to pull chains taut on flat loads like that. Ambis Engineering do some very fine chain (40 lpi, I think) which would do what you're looking for. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, cctransuk said: Tony, With all due respect ..... expecially as you're demonstrating, applying the (waterslide) transfers should be done so as to avoid the "halo" around them - so many people have an aversion to waterslide transfers because they don't know the correct way to do it and hate the "halo". First - acquire some quick-drying acrylic GLOSS varnish - I use the old fashioned Johnson's Klear floor lacquer, but I'm assured that the latest iteration of the product is just as effective; see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pledge-Klear-Multi-Surface-Wax/dp/B008HFVO32 Apply the lacquer to the areas that are to have transfers applied - it dries in minutes. Apply the transfers in the normal way, and let them dry. Apply another coat of the lacquer over the transfers to seal them. If at any point the lacquer goes milky, panic not ! ....it will dry clear. Weather away to your heart's content - I start with a waft of Testors Dullcote. There really is no avoiding the gloss finish BEFORE applying transfers if you want to avoid the "halo" - and weathering doesn't completely hide it once it's there. You wouldn't short-cut the valvegear on one of your big LNER Pacifics - putting on transfers deserves the same attention. Regards, John Isherwood. All sound advice, John, However, I don't demonstrate putting waterslide transfers on. I demonstrate building things. In my defence (if a defence were needed), my pulses of fill-in flash have highlighted the 'halo' rather more than the naked eye detects. And, I do short-cut on building the valve gear on my big LNER Pacifics. It doesn't actually 'work' because I always anchor the radius rod and valve rods. In reality, these should move backwards and forwards. Mine don't. Regards, Tony. Edited February 17, 2020 by Tony Wright to clarify a point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said: Having seen this at about 10.15 yesterday, I must say I am impressed at the speed with which you complete your assembly and painting, which I always find the worst part! Your photos of the completed wagon show it "parked" outside the LB goods shed, I built my own version of the Prototype Models' kit some 20 years ago, along with their GN station building, engine shed and signal box. I roofed both the goods and engine sheds with overlaid strips of the Prototype Models' slate paper, stuck down with PVA glue. Whilst they have lasted well, the roofs have taken on a distinct green shade! I know that some PVA can turn ballast green but haven't heard of this effect before. I am in the process of reconditioning all the buildings, including building the timbered extension to the Stamford engine shed not included in the kit, This refurbishment has included fitting gutters and drain (soil?) pipes. I believe the non-canopied side of the goods shed had two simple drain pipes but haven't found any pictures of the arrangement on the canopy side. Please may I ask if you know the arrangement of drain pipes on this side? I'll take some pictures this morning. When Ian Wilson was creating the original kit, he visited Little Bytham nearly 50 years ago, taking pictures. I'll see if I can find them. I took shots of the goods shed up until its demolition in 2008, but by then it was in a very poor state of repair, with many downspouts missing. Regards, Tony. Edited February 17, 2020 by Tony Wright typo error Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 9 hours ago, micklner said: For anyone who is'nt already aware. Add Microsol to the surface of the decal , it will the settle into the grooves and flatten onto the main surface of the model. Once dry then seal with the prefered varnish. Thanks Mick, I do that. I have to say, other than their ease and speed of use, I'm not a great user of waterslide transfers, preferring 'Pressfix' or 'Methfix' types, because of the 'halo' inherent with the carrying film. But then, perhaps I'm not applying them properly..... Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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