Wright writes.....

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Al,

 

'if you build them yourself you can avoid these problems.'

 

Which, having said it, I believe it's true. That said, not all can build their own locos and many who try to (from what I observe) fail, especially with regard to getting them running sweetly. 

 

I had a go at trying to fix two kit-built locos over the weekend. Mechanically, they were awful. Who believes that bits of multi-twisted/bent/poked here and there phosphor bronze wire will suffice as pick-ups? I failed! A complete chassis rebuild would be necessary to get the running I insist upon. 

 

So, the majority is left with 'take it or leave it' RTR. Some locos work fine (especially RTR diesel-/electric-outline in my experience), but too many new ones don't represent a mechanical step-forward in my view, with too many failures (and these things are not cheap!). 

 

As for trying to get their bodies off, don't get me going on that! Trying (carefully) to remove the body off a Hornby Royal Scot at the weekend resulted in a smoke deflector breaking off, a front footstep breaking off, both cylinder drain cocks becoming detached, the reversing lever coming adrift, a sandbox filler disappearing (forever!), not to mention ominous cracking noises, and still I failed! 

 

Are these highly-detailed models the 'equivalent' now of modern gadgets? If they fail, junk them and buy another? 

 

Interestingly (unless I've missed something) the recent poll doesn't seem to have a category for loco/rolling stock kits. RTR rules!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I think this is an element of modern production design; the theory is that the motors are reliable (to be fair they are) and, apart from cleaning wheels and pickups, no maintenance is ever needed; increasingly, there are ‘no user serviceable parts inside’.  Stages of assembly can be eliminated and costs reduced, which means profits are increased.  The model is intended to be replaced after a set service life, and stocks of spares are not held; motors are sealed and scrap/replaced once the carbon brushes wear out. 
 

Where this design ‘philosophy’ combines with plastic or nylon gears, problems are more or less inevitable. 
 

Another modern feature is the difficulty of getting inside coaches to detail and put passengers in.  Getting inside any recent Hornby coach without damaging it is a real challenge!  The problem is the one-piece bodyshell moulding with the roof integral;why can’t the roofs come off like they used to!

[69843]

All this talk of split gears is rather interesting and has me thinking. In the Australian RTR diesel scene, there was a number of diesel models that suffered from the dreaded split gear syndrome that were released around the mid-2000s. This could occur at any point in the models life, even after years of perfect running, and whilst constrained to mainly two brands (the brands shared a factory with the same companies that had problems in the US), it has been a thorn in the side of NSW modellers for about 15 years. 

 

Recently after some back and forth with a mate, he started investigating 3D printed gears to replace the faulty gears within these models. After a few different attempts, he came up with a solid solution. Months of testing and now 6 months of sales and over 5000 gears later with no reported failures as yet leads me to wonder if this could be a potential solution to the problem of Hornby gear failures. I’ll have to investigate that one, and grab a spare of both gears to see what can be done. But it could be a way to keep supply going on an increasingly hard to source replacement part that seems to have constant issues as well as improving its qualities and reliability. Otherwise a full replacement set of gears in brass is another solution, though would be more costly. 

[cctransuk]

52 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The problem is the one-piece bodyshell moulding with the roof integral;why can’t the roofs come off like they used to!

 

I can't agree - I've yet to see a model with a removable roof that convinces me that the roof and body are part of the same entity.

 

A thin blade (or two) and a little courage has never failed me yet when it comes to removing bodies from chassis.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Woodcock29]

Good morning everyone (well it is morning here!)

 

I have had experience fixing Hornby locos with spinning gears, as I might have said before.  There are two issues one of which can't be fixed that being the mazak rot issue with some chassis blocks or parts. A friend of mine has several Hornby Royal Scots and he presented me with three to have a look at. Each had mazak rot in the cover over the gear tower which had resulted in the metal fixing point for the screw that holds the cover in place, which is part of the chassis, snapping off, resulting in no easy way to fix the cover in place to maintain the gear setting. Another friend sold me his Royal Scot with the same problem for $A20 - which gave me a chassis of spare parts including motor quite cheaply!

 

The other of course is the split gear saga. I have fixed a range of Hornby locos for local BRMA members including, Britannia, Stanier 2-6-4T, Duchess, WC/BB and more recently a Std 4 4-6-0, Probably 8-9 locos in total. only one was mine a Britannia. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to this in that any of the three plastic gears can spilt. The final drive gear on the axle obviously being the most difficult to fix. However, even that can be fixed. The axles actually have splines on their ends so the wheels are not too difficult to get back into the correct position for quartering. One story I heard was that the split gears were due to recycled plastic being used to make the gears but I have no idea if there is any fact behind this statement?

 

I've used quite a few of the gears from the spare gear sets I had so time to buy some more or perhaps as 69843 above says we have some 3D printed gears made? I wonder if they would fare any better?

 

69843 - living in Adelaide I'm well aware of the split gear issue with the Trainorama 44/930 class diesels. I have two 930s and took the opportunity a couple of years back to purchase a full set of spare wheels/axles when a friend here in Adelaide ordered about 100 or more axles from Trainorama for himself and his mates, in case either of mine starts to have that problem - they don't get run very often and so far seem ok. I think I've seen spare axles with 3D printed gears at our Adelaide exhibition last year - maybe the guy from SDS had them?

 

69843 would have been the next A5 if the LNER had built anymore.

 

Andrew

[Jack P]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can't agree - I've yet to see a model with a removable roof that convinces me that the roof and body are part of the same entity.

 

 

In the same vein, I was wondering if the collective mind of this thread can offer some tips on kit-built coaches and removable roofs. 

 

I have a roxey kit (part built) that i'm looking to resurrect and 3 further kits to tackle, and I haven't the foggiest idea how to approach the roof. these coaches will have interiors, and i'd like to be able to disassemble them for painting and interior assembly. 

 

What successful methods have people had for making coaches - with particular mind to the roofs - able to be easily dismantled?   

[69843]

3 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

I've used quite a few of the gears from the spare gear sets I had so time to buy some more or perhaps as 69843 above says we have some 3D printed gears made? I wonder if they would fare any better?

 

69843 - living in Adelaide I'm well aware of the split gear issue with the Trainorama 44/930 class diesels. I have two 930s and took the opportunity a couple of years back to purchase a full set of spare wheels/axles when a friend here in Adelaide ordered about 100 or more axles from Trainorama for himself and his mates, in case either of mine starts to have that problem - they don't get run very often and so far seem ok. I think I've seen spare axles with 3D printed gears at our Adelaide exhibition last year - maybe the guy from SDS had them?

 

69843 would have been the next A5 if the LNER had built anymore.

 

Andrew

Ah-I'm glad someone else on the thread knows the issue I refer to with these models. I can't comment on the other solutions to come out (bar the white gears on eBay-no good), but the gears recently done were done by InFront Models, and are not on the axle but require mounting to. They were released in August and I'm pretty sure they haven't been released with SDS-that might be the NR spares, which I think are adaptable to any Austrains model-though I believe they sold out darn quick of them!

Given that it's the whole geartrain that can have issues as you've mentioned, I'll have a look through the whole set then-I've got a loco drive LNER Blue Mallard I pulled apart many years ago to do something with and simply never got around to putting back together-I could easily turn this into a test hack model with a new set of gears fitted at different stages, as well as sending out a few samples to see how they perform for others. This is currently an idea more than anything, but one that I think I'd be best to investigate. If it can provide a reliable, accessible replacement for the failing parts, then it would be silly not to go ahead with the idea.

And you are correct on the numbering name-I quite like the balanced look of the LNER A5s, particularly the /2 variant, so when the time came to pick a name for RMweb, the idea came about to use the number that should have been used for the last built, but because of 5447 being withdrawn it was never used. The number would be free for a new-build though, should anyone ever wish to.

[Jesse Sim]

Not completed yet, but it runs beautifully. 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

 

In the same vein, I was wondering if the collective mind of this thread can offer some tips on kit-built coaches and removable roofs. 

 

I have a roxey kit (part built) that i'm looking to resurrect and 3 further kits to tackle, and I haven't the foggiest idea how to approach the roof. these coaches will have interiors, and i'd like to be able to disassemble them for painting and interior assembly. 

 

What successful methods have people had for making coaches - with particular mind to the roofs - able to be easily dismantled?   

I tend to build the roof, ends and sides as a unit then fit the underframe and interior from below. It's easier with side corridor coaches than opens or non-corridors as the curve of the sides tends to leave a gap between them and the interiors. I can live with that though.

Edited February 26, 2020 by St Enodoc

[nerron]

Good work Jesse. D&S ex-GNR full brake I presume ?

[jwealleans]

That has a distinctly Howlden look to me.  Good luck fitting the roof.

 

I came to the conclusion years ago that the only person who can make removable roofs which don't show was Larry Goddard.  I also believe in being able to dismantle carriages in a non-destructive manner, so all my coaches are a five-sided box (sides, ends, roof) and split at the solebar.  It can be fiddly getting interiors in and out but it's far from impossible.   There are a number of pictures on my workbench thread showing how I do this if anyone's looking for guidance and many other people do the same thing. 

 

With regards to split gears, it might be worth contacting Peter's Spares to see whether they have plans to manufacture a replacement if Hornby aren't supplying or their offering is not adequate?   He's happy to step in where there's a gap (the T9 motor mount, for example) and source something himself.

[polybear]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Another modern feature is the difficulty of getting inside coaches to detail and put passengers in.  Getting inside any recent Hornby coach without damaging it is a real challenge!  The problem is the one-piece bodyshell moulding with the roof integral;why can’t the roofs come off like they used to!

 

A great step forward would be for the RTR Manufacturers to actually include detailed instructions on how to remove the bodyshells of Locos & Rolling Stock with the models.  And hopefully start designing said items so that such a process may be carried out without damage...

[Jesse Sim]

DS ECJS luggage brake, I’ve buggered up severely, but I think I’ve fixed the issue....hopefully. 

[BlackRat]

16 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

Here's the latest pair of frames I've put together:

 

 

They call the things in the middle formers rather than frame spacers, but other than that - and copious use of wood glue rather than solder - it's not unlike assembling a massive pair of Comet sides, in that the sides have to be square and parallel and twist-free. And, it'll have an electric motor!

 

Dont forget to fit all the rivets....... I've fitted them to a mates 1/6th Sopwith Pup...... hundreds.....made by drilling a shallow hole and glueing in a cut down pin head.

Drove me nuts but looks fantastic.

I told my mate he needed to be careful with the weight but it has some thing like a 1 hp motor. 

Flew beautifully and he even fitted it with a GoPro.

Hes moved on now to turbine fixed wing and rotary, which tends to make railway modelling a little boring.......

[Dr Al]

Split gears!

 

This is not a new phenomenon, and indeed, those of us who work in N gauge have contended with it for the last 30 years, mainly on Farish diesels, but also some steam (opening up quartering problems when trying to repair) and some Fleischmann continental N.

 

The reasoning is fundamentally over-stressed interference fit. This can be coupled with weaknesses in the gear moulding (e.g. on some recent Bachmann Farish gears, splits have been noted to occur where bubbles are in the moulding - apparently indication something wrong in the injection moulding process). Some plastics weaken with time too, but failure by splitting should not be inevitable (I've got gears 35 years old that are still absolutely fine).

The cure is simple - open out the central hole slightly with a broach, to ream it to a point where the stress of the interference fit is less, but the gear is still securely held. This may need doing gradually to get the exact best fit, but should massively reduce the chances of a re-occurrence. 

 

I've been doing this kind of repair since around 2004 in N gauge, and of the (literally) thousands of gears that I've done, I only know of a few early ones (where I did not ream the holes) that have split again subsequently.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
Alan

[Woodcock29]

1 hour ago, Dr Al said:

Split gears!

 

This is not a new phenomenon, and indeed, those of us who work in N gauge have contended with it for the last 30 years, mainly on Farish diesels, but also some steam (opening up quartering problems when trying to repair) and some Fleischmann continental N.

 

The reasoning is fundamentally over-stressed interference fit. This can be coupled with weaknesses in the gear moulding (e.g. on some recent Bachmann Farish gears, splits have been noted to occur where bubbles are in the moulding - apparently indication something wrong in the injection moulding process). Some plastics weaken with time too, but failure by splitting should not be inevitable (I've got gears 35 years old that are still absolutely fine).

The cure is simple - open out the central hole slightly with a broach, to ream it to a point where the stress of the interference fit is less, but the gear is still securely held. This may need doing gradually to get the exact best fit, but should massively reduce the chances of a re-occurrence. 

 

I've been doing this kind of repair since around 2004 in N gauge, and of the (literally) thousands of gears that I've done, I only know of a few early ones (where I did not ream the holes) that have split again subsequently.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
Alan

I guess the question is why should we have to do this to a brand new loco to prevent what may happen at some time in the future?  I could certainly do it. But to do that to the Hornby locos I have would take some time and in doing so one may actually cause the split to happen - due to forces exerted in removing the gear from either the idler shaft or the axle. I expect most modellers these days couldn't do this anyway.

 

I've not had this happen to any of the 18 A1s, A3s and A4s that I have (hoping I'm not tempting fate saying that!).

 

Andrew

[Andy Hayter]

The split gear problem has been around since at least the early 80s with Jouef H0 models (long before any link with Hornby).  I agree that the failures occur because the nylon (?) gear wheel is overstressed on the axle.  

 

IMHO such things should no longer happen with 50 years' experience of the problem.  If the nett result is that plastic gear wheels are not reliably up to the job, then change to metal.  Message to all manufacturers not just Hornby.  If on the other hand you the manufacturer take the risk of an occasional failure, then have the good grace to stock spares for the likely lifetime of a model - quite possibly 20 years or more.

[Headstock]

7 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Not completed yet, but it runs beautifully. 

 

Good afternoon Jesse,

 

you may wish to look again at the horizontal panels on your ECJS BG. It may be just my eyes, but you seem to have attached them to the insides. I'm glad your model is running well, it should last you several lifetimes without failure.

[Jesse Sim]

3 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Jesse,

 

you may wish to look again at the horizontal panels on your ECJS BG. It may be just my eyes, but you seem to have attached them to the insides. I'm glad your model is running well, it should last you several lifetimes without failure.

Ah sh*t

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, polybear said:

 

A great step forward would be for the RTR Manufacturers to actually include detailed instructions on how to remove the bodyshells of Locos & Rolling Stock with the models.  And hopefully start designing said items so that such a process may be carried out without damage...

Hear hear!

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

 

In the same vein, I was wondering if the collective mind of this thread can offer some tips on kit-built coaches and removable roofs. 

 

I have a roxey kit (part built) that i'm looking to resurrect and 3 further kits to tackle, and I haven't the foggiest idea how to approach the roof. these coaches will have interiors, and i'd like to be able to disassemble them for painting and interior assembly. 

 

What successful methods have people had for making coaches - with particular mind to the roofs - able to be easily dismantled?   

Good afternoon Jack,

 

All carriages, whatever their origins, should be made so that they can be subsequently separated, for access to the inside. 

 

When I build my carriages, almost without exception I make the roof and sides as one unit, attaching it (the body, essentially) to the floor pan/underframe by small screws (not self-tappers). The 'joint' is always easier to disguise in this manner than a joint at the roof cornice/cantrail. 

 

It's inevitable in the future that something will come adrift inside - seats/tables/compartments/people because often they're made of plastic - and glue fails! 

 

A couple of years ago, I attempted to repair some Larry Goddard-built/painted carriages, which had suffered damage. They were completely sealed units, and the Evo-Stik used to fix the interior parts/glazing had given up. Not only that, some of the glazing had 'imploded'. Could I fix them satisfactorily? No! 

 

Anyway, some examples of how I arrange my carriage builds.......

 

 

 

My Hornby Gresley conversions separate at the floor pan. The Hornby roof is essential to maintain the integrity. 

 

 

Though there's no interior in this Isinglass LNER milk van, it's still wise to separate at the floor pan.

 

 

Because the roof can then be finally soldered in place. 

 

 

 

A D&S GE RF, arranged in the same way.

 

It enables the plastic roof to be glued permanently in place.

 

 

With no unsightly gap at the cornice/cantrail. 

 

Four screws at each end hold the body and floor pan together on this Rupert Brown Kitchen Car. 

 

 

It's the middle part of this ex-FS 1938 dining triplet. 

 

Some of these have been seen before, but I still think they're relevant.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

15 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Ah sh*t

 

Not to worry, tis a mere scratch. Your increasingly ability at making things is becoming quite impressive, certainly one of a few people on the forum worth checking out,

[Tony Wright]

15 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can't agree - I've yet to see a model with a removable roof that convinces me that the roof and body are part of the same entity.

 

A thin blade (or two) and a little courage has never failed me yet when it comes to removing bodies from chassis.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks John,

 

Would that a thin blade (or two) were all that was needed to separate RTR steam-outline loco bodies from their chassis. 

 

You're a braver man than I am. Recently at shows, folk have asked my advice in getting into some RTR coaches, including some Maunsells. Any ideas, because I couldn't get them apart?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

6 hours ago, BlackRat said:

 

Dont forget to fit all the rivets....... I've fitted them to a mates 1/6th Sopwith Pup...... hundreds.....made by drilling a shallow hole and glueing in a cut down pin head.

Drove me nuts but looks fantastic.

 

 

 

 

Being as it's a Mustang. I'm mostly spared any rivet detail as the real things were treated with putty and then sanded over to reduce drag, making them very clean-looking planes at least at the start of their careers. That's my excuse, anyway...

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks John,

 

Would that a thin blade (or two) were all that was needed to separate RTR steam-outline loco bodies from their chassis. 

 

You're a braver man than I am. Recently at shows, folk have asked my advice in getting into some RTR coaches, including some Maunsells. Any ideas, because I couldn't get them apart?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

Mrs M says you could borrow her hammer to get them open.

 

[Chamby]

9 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hello Tony

 

Mrs M says you could borrow her hammer to get them open.

 

 

FGW pink...  Mrs M has good taste!