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Wright writes.....


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Hi Steven,

 

I'm not sure that any of us look down on RTR models, I have over 100 RTR locomotives but still build loco kits in brass and whitemetal and scratch build in brass.

I can only speak for myself and say that its just the great pleasure and satisfaction derived from building a little loco that makes me want to share it with others to encourage them to have a go. In no way do I see this as a superior activity compared to all the other aspects of our hobby. I, for example, have never completed a layout (although some good friends are helping me to have a go again!) and I admire all those who have done so but, as you suggest, I don't feel any less a modeller as a result!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

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I regard myself as a modeller, though not of Tony's calibre.  Nearly all of my stuff is RTR but none of it is as it was when I first took it out of the box, but where an item I want is not available from the RTR world, or cannot be converted from such a model, I am happy to build a kit.  I have a list of 'pending' kits for exactly this reason.  And if there are no kits available from which something I want can be built or adapted, I'll have a crack at a scratchbuilding, though I won't be able to equal, never mind exceed, RTR standards.

 

I don't have a layout big enough for scale length expresses that have to be hauled at scale speeds of around the 100mph mark, or 60 wagon fish trains at 70mph, so the lack of power of RTR is not an issue for me.  I have several items that do not cut the modern mustard, that I have improved to the extent that I am able, such as a Triang Hornby 2721, and several Silurian era K's coach kits; these are tolerated as being all that is available but would be replaced in a heartbeat if a better alternative were avalilabe, kit or RTR.

 

There is a huge amount of pleasure to be had out of successfully building a kit, as there is out of improving an RTR product, but it must be said that this is a secondary reason for modelling railways in my case; the primary objective is to operate trains according to the 1955 BR Rule Book and it's General Appendix in as realistic a setting as I can manage, to a timetable in real time at realistic speeds (I do condense time when nothing is running, but once a train is on the scenic part of the layout, there are 60 seconds to a minute, and time is allowed for releasing brakes, coupling pipes, walking between locations, brake continuity tests and so on.  It all makes my imagined little world more plausible).  I do not look down on anyone's standard of modelling, so long as they have clearly done their best, but I do tend to get a bit sniffy about out of the box layouts that have clearly been planned on a computer...

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

Is buying RTR realy that different to building a kit that someone else has designed and then paying someone else to paint it? (regardless of if the payment is cash or in exhange for building a kit for your painter?)

 

Without wanting to sound rude, there are many posts on this thread that appear to look-down upon those who buy RTR models. Surely getting someone else to build or paint a kit is only one step removed? A person might be an expert in producing scenary but is happy with RTR models. Does this make them any less of a "modeller"?

 

Steven B.

      Its called each to their own, and long may it stay that way.

 

       The sad thing about Model Railway kits are they are a rapidly disappearing resource as the makers retire or go bust and no sign of it improving in the near future, the same for model shops which are even rarer. Kits have stagnated for years ,and how many new Loco kits have appeared recently?. No idea, but I would be amazed if there were even ten kits in the last year, I can only think of a handful. Some of the kits still being sold having been around for over 20 years or more and are poor value in the extreme, when compared with current r.tr. I am not surprised when no one wants them, why would they? 

      Look at other hobbies e.g Aeroplanes/Miltary , the relevant magazines are full of detail parts , add on parts,  decals etc , every month. Model railways most months very little change on whats available. The advent of 3d printing appears at the moment to be the way ahead, its not perfect yet, but give it a chance before ignoring it.

      Hornby are not helping r.t.r by releasing new items , with zero spares available for most. A few years ago when East Kent Models where in business, I rebuilt lots of ebay wrecks for a very small outlay, now no chance the parts are not available any longer in most cases.

    As to r.t.r reliablity who actually knows how many  fail ?, a few on here report faults , but that is a very small percentage of anything sold. I personally have very few problems with any of mine , but it dont expect them to pull huge trains and treat them with respect in how they are handled etc. No one knows the history of any such models usage and/ or abuse at the hands of its owner prior to failure, the same applies not only  r.t.r as it does kits which have been bodged in the first place. No one takes a working model to be repaired !!!

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

Is buying RTR realy that different to building a kit that someone else has designed and then paying someone else to paint it? (regardless of if the payment is cash or in exhange for building a kit for your painter?)

 

Without wanting to sound rude, there are many posts on this thread that appear to look-down upon those who buy RTR models. Surely getting someone else to build or paint a kit is only one step removed? A person might be an expert in producing scenary but is happy with RTR models. Does this make them any less of a "modeller"?

 

Steven B.

'Surely getting someone else to build or paint a kit is only one step removed?'

 

It might be only one step, but building a loco kit (especially a big, complex one) is a very large one, and a huge stride compared to using just RTR.

 

I'm not sure folk are actually being rude about RTR on this thread. I like to think it's very much a builder's one, so contributions (in the main) are from folk who actually make things, including scenery. 

 

Speaking for myself, I do get rather bored with seeing just RTR products on layouts, especially at shows. Very good they might be, but, in the main, they're the product of purchasing, not making, though there is merit (as has been mentioned before) in personally detailing/altering/improving/weathering  an out-of-the-box loco or item of rolling stock. Particularly if one does it for oneself. 

 

1173141991_Eaglesham01.jpg.dbdba8685910596fcceff845653e2a82.jpg

 

Making a point (or at least I hope so), this is a scene on Eaglesham, taken at last weekend's Preston Show. Other than the loco being a Caley 4-6-0, and it clearly not being big enough for a 'Cardean', I'm ignorant as to exactly which class it is. I'm also not especially interested in Pre-Grouping Scottish railways (or, at least, they're not my prime area of study), but what an unusual (and refreshingly-different) loco it is, compared with much of what else was on show, particular the non-steam RTR (which all looked, and sounded, very much the same to me, given its Hornby/Bachmann/Heljan/Dapol/Farish/etc parentage).  This Caley 4-6-0 must have been kit- or scratch-built, and it's so much more interesting (at least to me) because of it. 

 

As for pre-1923 'elf 'n safety', it clearly didn't exist!

 

And, just to prove that I can paint my own locos as well as making them..........

 

1641456013_SEFinecastK361825.jpg.30d5ace324383ad11001194863112c2e.jpg

 

All my own work here in this SE Finecast K3. 

 

1624004210_A360039SANDWICH.jpg.fd5579e3304d0dce793d2bae0f41c926.jpg

 

And in this old Wills A3.

 

870350914_A3s60048and60111.jpg.71782a5c21a718073c817bb3735c59c4.jpg

 

Comparisons are odious, I know, but I painted the A3 on the right and Geoff Haynes painted the one on the left. On a layout (at a distance?) are they too far apart in their painting standards? 

 

1552375405_60048onUpAngloScottishCarCarrier.jpg.28c0c93c48a82e5bea09f1e5a9a6815a.jpg

 

Another view of DONCASTER, in her Stoke Summit days. 

 

60508.jpg.bb5e493e151d9b622ede013f26e86eb3.jpg

 

I painted this Jamieson A2/1 (as well as building it) 46 years ago now, long before I knew any professional painters as friends. As a layout loco, does it suffice?

 

My approach to painting the models I make is more 'pragmatic' now. For one, I don't think I'm as deft with wielding the sable as I used to be (I've never used an airbrush), and I have to rely on transfer lining (never having mastered the mysteries of the bow-pen). Not only for the two reasons just mentioned, but I find it easier to barter these days, doing something (building locos) I feel I'm more competent at. 

 

Whether anything I've stated above implies that others are somehow 'lesser modellers' is up to interpretation, though it's not my intention. As long as 'modellers' are self-reliant, do things for themselves, are not entirely RTR-dependent and get enjoyment from what they do, then they're all modellers as far as I'm concerned. That what they make might be 'inferior' to an equivalent RTR example is totally irrelevant to me. To be able to say 'I made/modified that myself' is by far the most-important thing - and it always should be.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point
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I was talking to Gareth who works for Accurascale at the Glasgow show, and we were reminiscing about how in the past we modified our Lima and Hornby diesels into the classes and sub-classes we wanted but today you can go and buy almost any variation in any livery. He said that the RTR industry is feeding the RTR buyers with what they want.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Making a point (or at least I hope so), this is a scene on Eaglesham, taken at last weekend's Preston Show. Other than the loco being a Caley 4-6-0, and it clearly not being big enough for a 'Cardean', I'm ignorant as to exactly which class it is.

 

 

It's a 918 Class express goods engine, one of five built in 1906, a big-boilered version of the better-known 55 Class "Oban Bogies". Perhaps not McIntosh's best effort, they were withdrawn in 1930, Horwich Crabs being much more suited to the duties they had undertaken. 

 

But please pardon my ignorance of matters post-grouping or post-nationalisation: what are the curious blank-sided vehicles with strange baffle plates hanging off the underframes, behind 60048?

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40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's a 918 Class express goods engine, one of five built in 1906, a big-boilered version of the better-known 55 Class "Oban Bogies". Perhaps not McIntosh's best effort, they were withdrawn in 1930, Horwich Crabs being much more suited to the duties they had undertaken. 

 

But please pardon my ignorance of matters post-grouping or post-nationalisation: what are the curious blank-sided vehicles with strange baffle plates hanging off the underframes, behind 60048?

 

I think that's Tony's model of the Anglo-Scottish car carrier.

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3 hours ago, Clem said:

I've been wondering about this virus and whether it's likely to affect the upcoming shows - York, ExpoEM,  Scalefour etc. Has anyone heard anything?  

The Governments stance is wait and see how things develop. There may come a point in the future when and if the number of people diagnosed with the disease in an as yet undefined locality where large gatherings may be banned. I'm sure the popular sporting events will be the first to be scrutinised, perhaps followed by  large musical events. I personally would have thought that large model railway shows would be fairly low down on the list of things to be cancelled.

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5 hours ago, micklner said:

      Its called each to their own, and long may it stay that way.

 

       The sad thing about Model Railway kits are they are a rapidly disappearing resource as the makers retire or go bust and no sign of it improving in the near future, the same for model shops which are even rarer. Kits have stagnated for years ,and how many new Loco kits have appeared recently?. No idea, but I would be amazed if there were even ten kits in the last year, I can only think of a handful. Some of the kits still being sold having been around for over 20 years or more and are poor value in the extreme, when compared with current r.tr. I am not surprised when no one wants them, why would they? 

      Look at other hobbies e.g Aeroplanes/Miltary , the relevant magazines are full of detail parts , add on parts,  decals etc , every month. Model railways most months very little change on whats available. The advent of 3d printing appears at the moment to be the way ahead, its not perfect yet, but give it a chance before ignoring it.

      Hornby are not helping r.t.r by releasing new items , with zero spares available for most. A few years ago when East Kent Models where in business, I rebuilt lots of ebay wrecks for a very small outlay, now no chance the parts are not available any longer in most cases.

    As to r.t.r reliablity who actually knows how many  fail ?, a few on here report faults , but that is a very small percentage of anything sold. I personally have very few problems with any of mine , but it dont expect them to pull huge trains and treat them with respect in how they are handled etc. No one knows the history of any such models usage and/ or abuse at the hands of its owner prior to failure, the same applies not only  r.t.r as it does kits which have been bodged in the first place. No one takes a working model to be repaired !!!

Fewer new kits may be appearing but perhaps that is because, in part, many loco classes have already been produced, by several manufacturers in some cases. 

 

The Aircraft/Military comparison is interesting. I suggest that those two hobbies have a much stronger kit building sector, so that may partly explain the difference compared to the  very RTR  focused model railway hobby (in 4mm at least). A/M also. AFAIK, still features static models and dioramas, whereas many railway modellers are more interested in "operation" or at least moving models. A proportion of RTR model buyers also, judging by Tony's comments from his show loco clinic, seem quite unable to handle any basic repairs so the idea of "improving" an RTR model would be beyond their capabilities. There is also the question of "devaluing" a model by doing anything to it - the Mint and Boxed concept of modelling.

 

I remain convinced that the hobby is increasingly splitting into two sectors, buying RTR locos, stock, track, etc. and concentrating on the scenic modelling and operating aspect or enjoying all aspects of model making to put your own stamp on what you do/achieve. I prefer the latter as it frees me to model a period and railway that I couldn't do if I relied on what is available RTR.

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3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I think that's Tony's model of the Anglo-Scottish car carrier.

Thanks Al,

 

It is the Newton Chambers Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier, but it's not mine. It's Dave Lewis', built from his own Southern Pride kits.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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When people say that RTR will not stand up the way well built kit locos do I sometime wonder if it is a statement to justify the skill, effort and time put into making a kit.  I am not trying to knock the proponents of kit building, far from it, but based on personal experience of 40+ years, I see RTR that has traveled large distances (in real terms) and has stood up very well.    As to fragility, both kit built and RTR can be fragile and have bit broken off if they are not handled properly.   However, I suspect RTR suffers more broken bits because the 'handler' may not have the general handling skill that comes from building and they do not have the knowledge of how the RTR went together and by default how it comes apart..   I have 2 Bachmann WD's that have consistently hauled 35 loaded wagons on my approx 80' circuit for20/30 years (they were purchased almost as soon as they came out).  I have a Hornby 04 with the same sort of life span.  There are others and, with the exception of some of the well known Bachmann split chassis models, all are still running well today.  In fact if I think about it my kit built locos have a worse reliability record than my RTR.  In one case a couple of the axle bushings came loose because of my poor soldering skills, I had a D10 motor burn out  and a bushing on a purchased gearbox came loose.  However, I don't consider them to have had poor reliability, it is just part of the hobby.

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10 hours ago, micklner said:

Hornby are not helping r.t.r by releasing new items , with zero spares available for most.

No, they're not, and are unlikely to in the future, and I doubt any other manufacturer will be providing spares either.  Spares are sadly a thing of the past; modern production is in runs of set numbers, and each is a standalone project, which means that the exact number of components required to assemble the exact number of models are produced.  There are no spares, and even if there were it is not commercially viable to hold stocks of them, often at a glacial rate of turnover and requiring a big investment in time and resources to catalogue and store in a way that makes them available for customers to order.  The only source of spares is complete items for breaking into component parts, and Murphy's immutable Law holds that the part that is worn out or broken on your loco is also worn out or broken on the donor loco, or has been removed from it by a previous owner to keep his loco running and is the reason that the donor loco is on 'Bay for 'spares or repair' in the first place!

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Al,

 

It is the Newton Chambers Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier, but it's not mine. It's Dave Lewis', built from his own Southern Pride kits.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The vans were double-decked, the "baffle plates" being the well where two cars were loaded. Four cars sat on the upper deck. The lifts were taken out of use, in the 70s I think, after some fairly serious accidents.

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10 hours ago, 96701 said:

The Governments stance is wait and see how things develop. There may come a point in the future when and if the number of people diagnosed with the disease in an as yet undefined locality where large gatherings may be banned. I'm sure the popular sporting events will be the first to be scrutinised, perhaps followed by  large musical events. I personally would have thought that large model railway shows would be fairly low down on the list of things to be cancelled.

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought but it's just the demographic of a model railway exhibition has a much higher percentage of older people who are far more at risk. On the lighter side, I was imagining everyone turning up wearing their air brush respirator masks and the locals mistaking it for a Dr. Who convention.

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8 hours ago, Theakerr said:

When people say that RTR will not stand up the way well built kit locos do I sometime wonder if it is a statement to justify the skill, effort and time put into making a kit.  I am not trying to knock the proponents of kit building, far from it, but based on personal experience of 40+ years, I see RTR that has traveled large distances (in real terms) and has stood up very well.    As to fragility, both kit built and RTR can be fragile and have bit broken off if they are not handled properly.   However, I suspect RTR suffers more broken bits because the 'handler' may not have the general handling skill that comes from building and they do not have the knowledge of how the RTR went together and by default how it comes apart..   I have 2 Bachmann WD's that have consistently hauled 35 loaded wagons on my approx 80' circuit for20/30 years (they were purchased almost as soon as they came out).  I have a Hornby 04 with the same sort of life span.  There are others and, with the exception of some of the well known Bachmann split chassis models, all are still running well today.  In fact if I think about it my kit built locos have a worse reliability record than my RTR.  In one case a couple of the axle bushings came loose because of my poor soldering skills, I had a D10 motor burn out  and a bushing on a purchased gearbox came loose.  However, I don't consider them to have had poor reliability, it is just part of the hobby.

I'm glad you say 'well-built' kit locos.

 

Poorly put together metal kit-built locos are even more susceptible to coming apart than anything made in plastic. 

 

I've just been making sure that the two kit-built locos given to me work well enough to be offered for sale on behalf of CRUK (photographs later). I've had to re-motor one, resulting in the necessity of removing some metal from inside the body. In gripping it for such 'surgery', off came steps, vacuum pipe, fall-plate, drag beam, cylinder drain cocks and so on. All originally glued in place! Not now - after cleaning up, they're now SOLDERED back in place. Why do folk glue metal loco kits together? The technique is hopeless. Anyway, both now run really well.

 

Soldered-together loco kits are far more robust than anything plastic RTR. Not only that, they're more powerful than their out-of-the-box equivalents and mechanically much sounder (if built properly). As I've stated on several occasions, for my needs - 14+ kit built bogies or 50+ wagon loads - RTR is of little value.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

No, they're not, and are unlikely to in the future, and I doubt any other manufacturer will be providing spares either.  Spares are sadly a thing of the past; modern production is in runs of set numbers, and each is a standalone project, which means that the exact number of components required to assemble the exact number of models are produced.  There are no spares, and even if there were it is not commercially viable to hold stocks of them, often at a glacial rate of turnover and requiring a big investment in time and resources to catalogue and store in a way that makes them available for customers to order.  The only source of spares is complete items for breaking into component parts, and Murphy's immutable Law holds that the part that is worn out or broken on your loco is also worn out or broken on the donor loco, or has been removed from it by a previous owner to keep his loco running and is the reason that the donor loco is on 'Bay for 'spares or repair' in the first place!

Not quite so at the moment , thats why Hornby were highlighted.

Bachmann have a excellent parts department, and I think its now Gaugemaster who have just taken over Heljan spares , this even includes sprues for body parts . They appear to be only availabale for short periods, so buy when they are available. I only have Heljan O2 and most of the sprues are long gone for that one  ( I wonder why , a very fragile loco!! ) . Unless Heljan supply more from new runs in due course.

Oxford parts appear to be non existent ?

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I think prople glue metal kits together because they are afraid of soldering.

 

The fact your dealing with something hot that can and will burn you if you handle it incorrectly has to be a factor there.

 

Many times someone at the club will ask me to solder something electrical for them. When I say 'why don't I show you how' they reply with various variations of 'I can't do that'.

 

Completely agree that metal kits should be soldered together. There's a reason why plastic glue is often called 'plastic weld' as it melts the two peices together. You can't melt metal with glue.

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27 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm glad you say 'well-built' kit locos.

 

Poorly put together metal kit-built locos are even more susceptible to coming apart than anything made in plastic. 

 

I've just been making sure that the two kit-built locos given to me work well enough to be offered for sale on behalf of CRUK (photographs later). I've had to re-motor one, resulting in the necessity of removing some metal from inside the body. In gripping it for such 'surgery', off came steps, vacuum pipe, fall-plate, drag beam, cylinder drain cocks and so on. All originally glued in place! Not now - after cleaning up, they're now SOLDERED back in place. Why do folk glue metal loco kits together? The technique is hopeless. Anyway, both now run really well.

 

Soldered-together loco kits are far more robust than anything plastic RTR. Not only that, they're more powerful than their out-of-the-box equivalents and mechanically much sounder (if built properly). As I've stated on several occasions, for my needs - 14+ kit built bogies or 50+ wagon loads - RTR is of little value.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Tony

        Soldering ? regarded as a Black Art by many. Scared of burning themselves ,  flood the part with solder and then give up, etc etc . They are two obvious reasons, probably many many others if people are asked. 

       Soldered up kits are more robust, but when you look at the lumpen whitemetal poorly detailed kits still out there, I can understand why plastic is far more popular. Buyers want detail nowdays hardly any are bothered about pulling power as said before.People are basically stupid when handling items, showing little care .

       Etched brass/whitemetal only for detail parts if well designed are the best current kits , you can always add lead to them , as with many of the r.t.r Locos if needed as well.


Mick

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17 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

He said that the RTR industry is feeding the RTR buyers with what they want.

 

Unfortunately not so much in N/2mm. Without wish listing there's plenty that could be produced RTR. Consequently I've adapted kits, bashed and hacked things to produce some of the units I want. And I still have to do that to end up with what I want.

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Hmmmm ......... I'm not sure where I stand on kit v. RTR 'debate'. As a youngish teenager 55 years ago, I did tackle whitemetal kits, Ks and Wills, that were glued together and still are in one piece, as at the time I had absolutely no skills in simple soldering and the one time I did try, I melted the pieces concerned. My fault as I used the then new Weller 135w instant heat iron (that I still have and works) - but at a young age and no instructions (and no internet) it did rather put me off - and so glue was my first choice.

 

Insofar as painting was concerned, as my locos were all GWR, it was matt black from a rattle can and the green brush painted on. Lining was by 'Pressfix' transfers (where applicable - sometimes were not - I was only following the box photo, honest guv). A coat of matt varnish from a rattle can finished everything off - and I was so pleased with the end results.

 

HOWEVER, where everything came off the rails, so to speak, was the mechanism. Those body kits that sat on a RTR chassis, I had no issue, some I even changed the wheels to Romfords with insulated rims on both sides - and they worked - despite the axle centres being 'nearly but not quite' as per prototype. The problem arose where wheels other than Romfords were used and quartering was the issue, again there being no instructions and as a result three-legged-dog running ensured The other issue was poor meshing of gears despite using 40 and 60:1 ratios. This, I'm afraid, pushed me into the arms of RTR and I have so continued.

 

Would I try a kit loco now at my age? I don't know - at least on this thread I have picked up a tip regarding quartering so that may be less of an issue. Painting? I have an airbrush now, but really need to brush up (see what I did there?) my skills. I do have some very old Airfix kits and some recent Parkside ones, to build and paint - I suppose restart small and work up. But an expensive loco kit - probably not.

 

My two pen'orth worth.

 

Here's my very first whitemetal kit loco - an ex-TVR U1. Everything that was not supposed to be done, was done:

Lining that shouldn't be there, RTR mechanism so the axle spacing is incorrect, mechanism protruding into the cab and brush painted. However, I DID put lamp irons on (though two have gone walk-abouts) and I did have lamps - even all those years ago. Nonetheless, I was chuffed, and the only only one in school that did my own kit locos (takes a bow). (PS - ignore the figure - son-in-law who didn't have a clue decided to 'help' in setting up the mini scene :(.)

 

 

DSCF0038.JPG.406c21ce5f3b574b9953773800c89ac3.JPG

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

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11 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Fewer new kits may be appearing but perhaps that is because, in part, many loco classes have already been produced, by several manufacturers in some cases. 

 

The Aircraft/Military comparison is interesting. I suggest that those two hobbies have a much stronger kit building sector, so that may partly explain the difference compared to the  very RTR  focused model railway hobby (in 4mm at least). A/M also. AFAIK, still features static models and dioramas, whereas many railway modellers are more interested in "operation" or at least moving models. A proportion of RTR model buyers also, judging by Tony's comments from his show loco clinic, seem quite unable to handle any basic repairs so the idea of "improving" an RTR model would be beyond their capabilities. There is also the question of "devaluing" a model by doing anything to it - the Mint and Boxed concept of modelling.

 

I remain convinced that the hobby is increasingly splitting into two sectors, buying RTR locos, stock, track, etc. and concentrating on the scenic modelling and operating aspect or enjoying all aspects of model making to put your own stamp on what you do/achieve. I prefer the latter as it frees me to model a period and railway that I couldn't do if I relied on what is available RTR.

I was involved in a joint exhibition of model railways, aircraft modelling and military modelling. The railway modellers were in awe of the wonderful detail and weathering of the aircraft, soldiers and vehicles. When we told the other modellers their reply was, "You get yours to move."

 

Watching two trains meander around my layout with no scenery is still a delight for me.

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8 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Unfortunately not so much in N/2mm. Without wish listing there's plenty that could be produced RTR. Consequently I've adapted kits, bashed and hacked things to produce some of the units I want. And I still have to do that to end up with what I want.

Hi Grahame

 

Fortunately there are still many DMUs and EMUs from my modelling period that the RTR blokes seem to ignore in 4mm as well. Happy modelling. 

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