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12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Mike Kippax set up the trains for the photo shoot, Tony.

 

I can't believe it's over ten years ago! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

If it was the photoshoot you did after Peter died, then yes it will be. I wasn't sure if that was the only time you photographed it in its Truro base. He passed away in December 2009 and the photo session would have been in the months after that, so early 2010. We have been running Buckingham here for around 8 years now. "Tempus fugit" if my memory of schoolboy Latin is anything like intact. 

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19 hours ago, richard i said:

The first has a whiff of gcr Parker perhaps and the third looks a little ner in shape, perhaps also the fifth one back because of the trussing. I could be way off the mark though. Until I build a model of something I find it hard to pick up on all the little details to tell with huge certainty.  
fully expect others to tell you what they really are. 
richard 

Whilst looking through Wild Swans LMS in the 1930s picture book I came across a pic of a similar vehicle to third coach.  It is stated as a LYR open 3rd.  The first vehicle still has me stumped, it is those long grab handles!  Tony

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The leading carriage in that train is very likely a corridor vehicle, due to the toilet compartments at each end and the alarm gear on the end being stepped to raise it over what would presumably be a corridor connection on the end of the vehicle. Does that narrow it down?

 

The GER had similar arrangements on the carriage end but I don't think those grab handles are long enough for GER, which went right to the bottom of the carriage side.

 

 

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Interesting to see Tony's and Graham's lovely D2 builds. I've been working on one of these myself as one of my 'lockdown projects'. This one is going to be 3049, fitted with J6 chimney and dome.

 

1964391915_D2Assembly25-4-20.jpg.96abd3164720bbc7114e4c3d482568ce.jpg

 

The body design work is just about done from a cosmetic perspective. However, working out how I'm going to power an N gauge model still requires some more consideration. I've had to juggle the coupled wheelbase at the rear by 0.5mm to allow everything to fit without resorting to stretching the body which I think won't be noticeable on the final model. 

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21 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Tony suggested I posted an extract of this photo, taken near Coventry in  August 1937 as he was unable to help me in my request for details of the coaching stock.  It is a really strange working!  I am pretty sure they are not LMS (or constituent companies) stock, my 'guru' on Southern stuff says they are not his so does any of you guys know?

 

Note the lack of luggage or gaurds compartments except in the Stanier full brake.  The Patriot hauling it was operating displaying ordinary stopping passenger lamps.

 

Cheers Tony

coaches.jpg


I think I've found a match for the leading carriage in this photograph of a Glasgow & South Western corridor third. Note the queenpost trussing of the underframe, the single panel between the toilet window and the quarterlight of the adjacent compartment. The killer identifier though, is the door grab-handles extending below the waist panels.

 

I'm pretty sure the second carriage is an ex-LNWR 50 ft 7 compartment corridor third to D267, built 1910-11 [D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995) p. 95 and plate 111].

 

The third carriage definitely has a L&Y look about it - by their bogies shall ye know them. The L&Y built a "fireproof" 8-coach train, I think in response to the Aisgill accident; as far as I can glean these were mostly open carriages. They had steel panelling, which fits with what we see. The high-waisted picture windows with double toplights are characteristic of later-period L&Y design, giving them a surprisingly modern look [R.W. Rush, Lancashire & Yorkshire passenger Stock (Oakwood Press, 1984) p. 9]. 

 

From its underframe, I'm confident the fourth carriage is a standard LMS Period 1 corridor third, D1695.

 

The fifth carriage, with its "clipper" profile and lower-than-standard clerestory roof, is ex-Midland: one of the vestibuled (i.e. open) third class carriages built for excursion train use to D595, built in 1910 and 1913. It's probably from the the later batch of six, as the first batch were formed into close-coupled sets of three [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 224 anf figs. 279-280].

 

Such a mixed bag of all third class carriages (assuming the L&Y carriage is an open third) along with the string of horseboxes in the rear suggests a race-day special of some sort, or possibly a troop train.

 

EDIT: reading through previous posts, @Headstock and @Darryl Tooley were before me with LNWR, L&Y, LMS Period 1, and Midland identifications.

Edited by Compound2632
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3 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

What a lovely looking model!

 

Can I please ask how common was this particular livery/lettering combination and in which years would it have been seen?   The reason for asking is that my roster includes a D11 in a similar red-lined black, but with unshaded yellow lettering and carrying a post 1946 number, but I am very dubious of its authenticity as I have not found any photographs showing this combination.  Shaded lettering with unlined black livery seems to have been the norm for the 4-4-0’s in the later LNER years, so my D11 is scheduled for the paint shop - though it does look very attractive as is!

 

Bachmann’s model of  ‘Luckie Mucklebackit’ produced a few years ago carried a red-lined black livery, but in this case with gold shaded lettering - again presumably an earlier period combination, but one I haven’t observed elsewhere.  

 

I found you this picture of 2661 at Neasden in 1947.

 

2661 (62661) Gerard Powys Dewhurst Neasden 10 April 1947

 

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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.)

 

I can help with that one! That is the end of one of the GCR Clerestory Dining Saloons built for the London Extension. You can't see enough to tell if it is the 1st Class or 3rd Class as they were very similar at the ends. It has been modified, with the Corridor Connection removed and a replacement door, plus it is very tatty, so perhaps in departmental use now.

 

Photos are in Dow's book on the GCR in Volume 2, P269. A friend recently sent me a photo and suggested that if I ever scratchbuild a GCR train, these carriages should be included as they look fantastic!

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20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.)

 

A further comparison confirms it as the 1st Class Saloon. The panel between the door and the first window is narrower than the 3rd Class.

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Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong.  I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. 

 

Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars.  I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues.  Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. 

 

Vehicle now identified, see post dated April 25, 2020

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9 minutes ago, Engineer said:

Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong.  I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. 

 

Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars.  I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues.  Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. 

 

 

I am happy to be corrected if wrong! I may have been quick to jump to a conclusion. I know little about the Met and hadn't considered them as an option. If you have a look at the GCR Dining saloons, you will see why I was fooled.  

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59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.)

 

Good afternoon Stephen,

 

I'm not one hundred percent sure without reference material, however they do have some features, the distinctive cut out in the roof above the end vestibule for example, that remind me of Metropolitan stock. The 'cut off' curved end of the clerestory is also an interesting feature.

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12 minutes ago, Engineer said:

Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong.  I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. 

 

Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars.  I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues.  Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. 

 

 

Now you're making me really pleased I asked! They do look grounded. But it's interesting that the confusion should arise, given the close connection between the Met and the Great Central - I wonder if there's some connection in the design - some sharing of drawing office staff, or the same builder? I know the MS&L / GC struggled for carriage building space at Gorton, until Dunkinfield opened in 1910, so use of outside builders wouldn't be surprising, but I know nothing of the Met's carriage works.

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Alas, two replies disappeared, so third attempt.

 

Additional footnote to the original image, following checks with robust sources: 

The grounded saloon vehicle in the background is LT number 6233 [Hammersmith & City Third Driving Trailer formerly no. 128].  Three recognition details are the truncated 'ramp' at the end of the clerestory which is a feature of driving ends built in that era, the trace of a single upper marker light above the end gangway door [H&C Stock only], and the bracket that holds the outer end of the metal destination plates on the car end just below the driver's lookout window.  The car number comes from post-war observations recorded in 'Underground News' and Brian Hardy stock publications.   For completeness, the other grounded body observed at Neasden was LT number 9210 [Metropolitan Third Trailer no 34] which had slightly different features.  I suggest there's a tiny trace of this vehicle's end at the extreme left of the image.

 

Metropolitan and GC design contrasts, mentioned in a previous post:

I know that the Metropolitan and the Great Central had a bond that might be described positively as creative tension.  There is ample evidence for this in the archived correspondence of Fay [GC] and Selbie [Met.], over matters such as fares and station naming on the Joint Line.  The tension went back much further, though.  I'd suggest that there was no direct influence on the Met's design choices in this case.  The Met. was pretty good at noticing its collaborators' and competitors' activities, and keeping up while doing things slightly differently.  The electrification saga with the District Railway is one example that didn't quite come off, and there is another example, a hypothesis that the Met's Haltes of the 1900s took multiple cues from the GWR precursors to the extent of going to the same supplier for some small platform waiting buildings, but carefully avoiding the GWR style of roof.

 

Briefly, and cutting corners, the Metropolitan's Saloon Stock came in various batches over a number of years, evolving in design to match fashions and service needs.  Builders were Metropolitan Amalgamated, who would have experience or knowledge of contemporary UK practice for commuter saloons, and other main line vehicles.  Another influence would be the transatlantic styles of the time for electric trains, which were followed closely by the District but interpreted more liberally and gently for the Met's early stock.  I'd conclude there was negligible direct GC influence on the Saloon Stock design.

 

As an aside, there was a GC influence in vehicle design a little later, again following the principle of learning while avoiding direct imitation.  The GC introduced very high quality coaches in the 1900s.  The Metropolitan's vehicles on the same route were much less attractive by comparison [These were the 'Bogie Stock'  - the official name used by the Metropolitan and London Transport].  Among tracings, prints and papers from the Metropolitan I saw one or two GC carriage drawings, and one cross-section of a 3rd class compartment showing the quality of the interior, and I suggest this indicates Met, desire to learn and improve from others in order to maximise revenue - in business today it might be called Benchmarking!  With a surplus of Saloon Stock trailers by 1910, the Metropolitan commissioned Metropolitan Amalgamated to rebuild some of these to compartment coaches, officially 'Main Line Stock' but soon acquired a second name of Dreadnought.  The body style was piloted just before with the reconstruction of two crash-damaged Saloon Motors for use as single vehicles - the loco-hauled reconstructions followed.  One reconstructed vehicle, a third brake, survives with the Vintage Carriage Trust alongside two others of later builds.

 

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5 hours ago, Wingman Mothergoose said:

Good morning Tony, I'm a relative newcomer to RMWeb, and was completely unaware of your thread! am just having a quick look through some of the more recent posts and thought I would say hello!

I was also prompted to say hi after a conversation with our mutual friend Jesse Sim a few weeks ago on the LNER Modellers Facebook group. I don't interact much on here, something I'm going to change over the coming weeks as I have time off work to continue with my layout Richmond. 

Dear Wingman (though it would be nice to know your real name),

 

Welcome to the thread. It's popular, lively, occasionally controversial but always interesting. I hope Jesse said nothing complimentary about me! I think his first correspondence with me was 'Yo Tony'. I suppose it's worse than 'hi'. You'll infer from that that I'm old and even older-fashioned. 

 

It would be interesting to see progress on your layout.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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45 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Dear Wingman (though it would be nice to know your real name),

 

Welcome to the thread. It's popular, lively, occasionally controversial but always interesting. I hope Jesse said nothing complimentary about me! I think his first correspondence with me was 'Yo Tony'. I suppose it's worse than 'hi'. You'll infer from that that I'm old and even older-fashioned. 

 

It would be interesting to see progress on your layout.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Oh of course not, just the standard “great bloke, bit of an old git but” you know how it is Tony...

 

 

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