Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

But it is! Perhaps not on a layout (DC or DCC) where locos always face the same way but if they don't you can get spectacular sparking effects when two locos touch smokebox to smokebox (or vice versa).

 

The question really has nothing to do with DC/DCC!

I think this is a bit of red herring, John,

 

And, I do think it has something to do with DC/DCC. 

 

In my own case, since on the ECML double-heading was virtually unheard of (unlike on 'lesser' railways), then the situation of two locos touching each other doesn't come into it. I also don't have a loco shed, so the notion of two (or more) locos on the same line isn't applicable. 'I'm all right, Jack!'. 

 

I brought up DCC because of my personal experience of it giving problems where a live chassis is concerned. I've lost count of the hours I've spent 'mucking about' with some all-metal kit-built, live-chassis locos on Peterborough North, trying to get them to run; an A2/2 and a K2 in particular (neither built by me). In the case of MONS MEG, I had it over here for a time, took out the chip and ran it on LB where it performed faultlessly. Yet, back at its home, even after substituting smaller bogie wheels (ugh!!!!!), the placing of strategic strips of insulation tape and films of Araldite, performance was still less than I'd tolerate. Granted, PN's curves are tighter than LB's, and I did eventually get it to run 'adequately', but nowhere near as well as Gilbert's RTR locos (which have plastic bodies). 

 

One situation where a whole 'live' train caused problems was on Retford one day. I'd just built a live-chassis B2 in EM (for Audley End, which seems to have gone the way of all flesh), and wished to test it. We hooked it up to a GC train and off it went, only to stutter on the crossing. I investigated, fiddled with the loco, adjusted this and that and tried again. Again, it jerked on the crossing. We put another loco on the same line (the fastest test to identify a short) and that wouldn't go either. So, I took the loco off the train and removed the body and bogie, and uncoupled the tender. As a light engine 0-6-0 chassis it then ran perfectly over the crossing. I put the bogie back on; still fine. Then the body and coupled up the tender; again, perfect running. 

 

What was finally discovered was that one of the coaches (built by Geoff Kent) had a wheel on one bogie which was touching the frames - on the opposite side to the live-side of the B2; thus, a short occurred. The coach was turned round, and bingo! Perfect running henceforth.............

 

Because Retford is DC, the short caused stalling and stuttering. Had it been DCC, then much of the layout would have just shut down.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Barry O said:

If you have a live chassis which is live to one rail and a live chassis live to the other rail it doesn't matter if it is dc or dcc..sparks fly if you couple them together with uninsulated couplings. 

 

As two people may supply the locos on club layouts its best not to double head trains.

 

And don't use coach wheels live to one side ona metal coach bogie..then do it the other way around on the other end. Again this is the same with DC and DCC. 

 

Baz

'And don't use coach wheels live to one side ona metal coach bogie..then do it the other way around on the other end. Again this is the same with DC and DCC.'

 

I couldn't agree more Baz.

 

I once spent a most-interesting day substituting oodles of 'live-to-one-side' axles on Lawrence/Goddard carriages running on Carlisle. I also had to change dozens fitted to Bachmann Mk.1s. 

 

Why were they used? Lighting? Extra pick-ups? Because Carlisle (as you know) is DCC, they caused nothing but problems (they would have done on a DC system). Mike observations on them were 'illuminating'!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Barry O]

It would be fine in DCC as you spotted the fault before using it on DCC.

 

Surprising how many dc locos spark and short but "bumble" through...until you turn the lights out and watch the sparks.

 

Live chassis were the only way years ago as the cost difference between insulated and non insulated Romfords was high (and sometimes you couldn't get enough insulated ones) The D11/D13 motors didn't help but with the modern wheelsets and motors available mean you can isolate both sides of the chassis and loco bodies. Mind you, you then need to fit two sets of pick ups.....

 

Baz

[Tony Wright]

One thing which is a pleasure to do is to assist others in their loco building. 

 

A friend in Australia is building a DJH A2/2 and has emailed me some questions. Since I built the prototype for the model, wrote the instructions, built the first three production locos (one for DJH, one for a customer and one for myself), then to help is the least I can do. 

 

Out of interest, I've sent him the following pictures....................

 

 

I think this image appeared on the first page of Wright Writes, all those hundreds of pages (getting on for 2,000) ago. 

 

It illustrates the prototype A2/2 I built to show how the class could be made from DJH parts (which they supplied). The smokebox/boiler/firebox, rear footplate, smokebox door, chimney, dome, safety valves, whistle, cab front, cab roof, backhead, Cartazzi frames, bogie and various sundry items came from an A1. The cylinders and motion (modified) came from the A2, and the cabsides and tender came from an A3. I scratch-built the frames, front end, central footplate section and the tiny deflectors. It then went to DJH for assessment, before it was returned for Ian Rathbone to paint it.  

 

A couple of years later, the production kits appeared...... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is one of those first production builds, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

 

How many I've built since, I'm not sure, but this one became THANE OF FIFE (I built two THANES OF FIFE at the same time). Because the customer for this one had fairly tight radii, I opted for under-scale bogie wheels, which rather spoil the 'look'. 

 

 

WOLF OF BADENOCH seems to be the most popular choice (actually more popular, because the DJH kit only really makes up to 60505 or 60506, without modification). 

 

This one was painted by Geoff Haynes.

 

I wonder when Hornby's will arrive. Not any time soon, I'd imagine...................

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[jwealleans]

It's surprising how forgiving DC can be of live carriage wheels - I've found two instances on my Grantham stock where I had managed to get them 'crossed', but both were on vehicles which had done several shows without causing any apparent issues.

 

I try to avoid them but if I have nothing else then use them on plastic bodied vehicles.

[Tony Wright]

14 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

It's surprising how forgiving DC can be of live carriage wheels - I've found two instances on my Grantham stock where I had managed to get them 'crossed', but both were on vehicles which had done several shows without causing any apparent issues.

 

I try to avoid them but if I have nothing else then use them on plastic bodied vehicles.

Who made the wheels please, Jonathan?

 

I've only come across them on Carlisle's stock.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

They were Hornby, Tony.  I think they were for their Pullmans with the working lights.

 

When you buy them, the packets are all but identical, you have to check for an 'X' on the reference number.

 

Did Larry build the Carlisle carriages?  He was very keen on using Hornby wheels.

[St Enodoc]

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Granted, PN's curves are tighter than LB's, and I did eventually get it to run 'adequately',

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

one of the coaches (built by Geoff Kent) had a wheel on one bogie which was touching the frames... Because Retford is DC, the short caused stalling and stuttering. Had it been DCC, then much of the layout would have just shut down.

 

The argument that "DC is OK because it tolerates poor electrical design better then DCC" isn't terribly strong, Tony.

[t-b-g]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

 

The argument that "DC is OK because it tolerates poor electrical design better then DCC" isn't terribly strong, Tony.

 

I am not a fan of DCC but have to agree with that. Shorts are not really good with either system. At least with insulated wheels on both sides, you have to have two shorts, one to each side before you get a problem.  We have had a couple of problems on Narrow Road that were due to a brake touching a wheel on a metal carriage and a live bodied loco. On that layout, we have a couple of sheds where locos can park buffer to buffer. Most Buckingham locos are live one side and they can park together on shed the wrong way round. So live loco bodies can be a problem on some layouts if not Little Bytham.  I have never found making good pick ups difficult so I would rather make two sets and keep frames and body electrically dead.

[Headstock]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

But it is! Perhaps not on a layout (DC or DCC) where locos always face the same way but if they don't you can get spectacular sparking effects when two locos touch smokebox to smokebox (or vice versa).

 

The question really has nothing to do with DC/DCC!

 

The touching of smokeboxes has been outlawed by the WHO. Being a 21st century sort of guy, my chassis is in full isolation.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

 

The argument that "DC is OK because it tolerates poor electrical design better then DCC" isn't terribly strong, Tony.

Granted, John,

 

And I'm not suggesting that folk who 'just' adopt DCC only do it because it's more tolerant of poor electrical design. I hope those who've seen and run Little Bytham will testify that there is nothing wrong with its electrics, whether that be the design or the installation. 

 

It's just that I can get exactly the same loco (Gilbert's 60504) to run 'perfectly' on DC, whereas I can't when it's DCC-fitted.

 

It was the same with a small GWR pannier I built - a beautiful runner on DC, but, after I installed a decoder (a recommended one) it ran like a lame dog. Ask Tom Foster - I built it for him. 

 

What am I missing?

 

I can only relate my own experiences, and DCC is certainly not for me (nor ever will be, but we've been here before). Those who have much greater knowledge of the systems (which isn't difficult compared with me!) can get it to run perfectly I'm sure (I've seen it in action, but mainly with plastic, RTR stuff). What I do find a puzzle is where folk adopt it, but haven't a clue about it - to the extent that they can't even install decoders, giving strength to the elbows of those who can; and good luck to them for providing such a service. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

They were Hornby, Tony.  I think they were for their Pullmans with the working lights.

 

When you buy them, the packets are all but identical, you have to check for an 'X' on the reference number.

 

Did Larry build the Carlisle carriages?  He was very keen on using Hornby wheels.

Good afternoon Jonathan,

 

He did, both in conjunction with Derek Lawrence and by himself.

 

If they are (were) Hornby wheels, he must have reset them to EM.

 

Mike Edge and Barry Oliver know far more about this than I do.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Woodcock29]

Did someone mention LNER 2-8-0s! A number of these have appeared on here before.

 

My first O4 , an old Ks kit I bought secondhand in 1975, it was rebuilt in the early 80s with a later Ks chassis, ie not the key hole cutouts for axles and fitted with my first Portescap, it will just about pull more than anything else on the layout. The chimney is actually from a Black 5 but was the nearest I could get at the time. It needs fully flanged drivers and brakes when I find the time. Its also a bit of a hybrid neither an O4/1 or O4/3. Its numbered as an O4/1. Possibly I'll take the handrail so I can fit an ejector pipe and refit the vacuum pipes that fell off. The tender front also needs modification and water pickup if its to be an O4/1. The cab roof is not right for an O4/3 but possibly it requires less work to make it an O4/3 - its a product of its time and my lack of knowledge at that stage! 

My second O4 - the first Bachmann release - its had work to make it into a better O4/1 - tender has water pickup added, cylinders lifted, front pony pulled back 1-1.5mm, longer reversing rod.

My second Bachmann O4 - utilising a Bachmann O4/1 boiler on a Bachmann WR ROD footplate and WR ROD cab, ejector pipe removed, other mods to loco chassis as above. 

An O4/5 utilising a Bachamnn WR ROD with a Bill Bedford 3-D Printed boiler and cab. Water pickup added to tender, chassis mods as above.

Another Bachmann WR ROD was used to make this O4/3 with flowerpot chimney. The chimney is a cut down Bachmann J11 chimney. Chassis mods as above.

My first O2, a Nucast kit I built in 1982. Also Portescap fitted. Cab is made from tinplate to get a better curve for the LNER cab. Was upgraded in the 90s with fully flanged 14 spoke drivers, new smokebox dart and Crownline chimney. Has probably run more miles than any other loco I have!

Heljan O2/3. Has had a full makeover including new expansion links, new chimney, buffers, smokebox handles, handrails, repaint.

I agree with the comment made previously that the Hornby O1 is probably the best of the RTR LNER 2-8-0s. This has had a new chimney and smokebox front, courtesy of Graeme King. It could do with some additional less brown weathering of the chassis.

Last but not least of the current operational fleet, not that it gets much of a run as I rarely run BR period stock, my father's Bachmann WD, weathered by my friend Alan Harrison, who also visited you with us in 2017. 

But that's not the end of the story!

I have another couple of Bachmann O4/RODs to work with, plus two Nucast O2/3s, one of which will form the basis for a Gresley O1. Also I have another old built Ks O4  that I was given as well as an unmade Ks O4 to use.  Plus an unbuilt Little Engines O1 I paid less than 15GBP for at a BRMA Convention a few years ago!

 

Andrew

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Woodcock29
Change the photo to the correct one!

[Barry O]

35 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Jonathan,

 

He did, both in conjunction with Derek Lawrence and by himself.

 

If they are (were) Hornby wheels, he must have reset them to EM.

 

Mike Edge and Barry Oliver know far more about this than I do.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Jonathan

 

They are specialist EM gauge wheelsets. I don't know where they came from (?Alisatair Rolfe? or "Supa Rollers" perhaps)  They run very well but are a pain.  If you want some I have a couple of bags here .. but they are like the old Lima wheel. The live wheel is fixed on the axle so regauging is not easy. Not sure who had put these wheels in - I didn't do it and the other Larry Coaches I have sold had Jacksons in them. These all predate the latest Hornby wheels.

Baz

[micklner]

33 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Did someone mention LNER 2-8-0s! A number of these have appeared on here before.

 

My first O4 , an old Ks kit I bought secondhand in 1975, it was rebuilt in the early 80s with a later Ks chassis, ie not the key hole cutouts for axles and fitted with my first Portescap, it will just about pull more than anything else on the layout. The chimney is actually from a Black 5 but was the nearest I could get at the time. It needs fully flanged drivers and brakes when I find the time. Its also a bit of a hybrid neither an O4/1 or O4/3. Its numbered as an O4/1. Possibly I'll take the handrail so I can fit an ejector pipe and refit the vacuum pipes that fell off. The tender front also needs modification and water pickup if its to be an O4/1. The cab roof is not right for an O4/3 but possibly it requires less work to make it an O4/3 - its a product of its time and my lack of knowledge at that stage! 

My second O4 - the first Bachmann release - its had work to make it into a better O4/1 - tender has water pickup added, cylinders lifted, front pony pulled back 1-1.5mm, longer reversing rod.

My second Bachmann O4 - utilising a Bachmann O4/1 boiler on a Bachmann WR ROD footplate and WR ROD cab, ejector pipe removed, other mods to loco chassis as above. 

 

An O4/5 utilising a Bachamnn WR ROD with a Bill Bedford 3-D Printed boiler and cab. Water pickup added to tender, chassis mods as above

Another Bachmann WR ROD was used to make this O4/3 with flowerpot chimney. The chimney is a cut down Bachmann J11 chimney. Chassis mods as above.

 

My first O2, a Nucast kit I built in 1982. Also Portescap fitted. Cab is made from tinplate to get a better curve for the LNER cab. Was upgraded in the 90s with fully flanged 14 spoke drivers, new smokebox dart and Crownline chimney. Has probably run more miles than any other loco I have!

 

Heljan O2/3. Has had a full makeover including new expansion links, new chimney, buffers, smokebox handles, handrails, repaint

I agree with the comment made previously that the Hornby O1 is probably the best of the RTR LNER 2-8-0s. This had had a new chimney and smokebox front, courtesy of Graeme King. It could do with some additional lees brown weathering of the chassis

Last but not least of the current operational fleet, not that it gets much of a run as I rarely run BR period stock, my father's Bachmann WD, weathered by my friend Alan Harrison, who also visited you with us in 2017. 

 

But that's not the end of the story!

I have another couple of Bachmann O4/RODs to work with, plus two Nucast O2/3s, one of which will form the basis for a Gresley O1. Also I have another old built Ks O4  that I was given as well as an unmade Ks O4 to use.  Plus an unbuilt Little Engines O1 I paid less than 15GBP for at a BRMA Convention a few years ago!

 

Andrew

 

 

Have you your own build thread on the O4's please?

I have acquired a GWR ROD Body and I also have a spare Bachmann LNER O4 . I am trying to find out what combination of parts makes the best LNER version including the Tender ( I have G Kings resin Tender parts ). The one thread I have found used the GWR Cab and Footplate and the LNER boiler combination. Yours look like they still have the LNER Cab fitted ?

 

Any help will be  appreciatted to clear the fog !!.

[jwealleans]

Quote

They are specialist EM gauge wheelsets. I don't know where they came from (?Alisatair Rolfe? or "Supa Rollers" perhaps)  They run very well but are a pain. 

 

No, thanks, I have some.  the carriages I bought from Dave Scott at Hartlepool have what sound like the same thing.   Tony bought a couple as well so maybe he has some?   I was looking at regauging them just the other night and they went into the 'too hard' pile.

[landscapes]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

One thing which is a pleasure to do is to assist others in their loco building. 

 

A friend in Australia is building a DJH A2/2 and has emailed me some questions. Since I built the prototype for the model, wrote the instructions, built the first three production locos (one for DJH, one for a customer and one for myself), then to help is the least I can do. 

 

Out of interest, I've sent him the following pictures....................

 

 

I think this image appeared on the first page of Wright Writes, all those hundreds of pages (getting on for 2,000) ago. 

 

It illustrates the prototype A2/2 I built to show how the class could be made from DJH parts (which they supplied). The smokebox/boiler/firebox, rear footplate, smokebox door, chimney, dome, safety valves, whistle, cab front, cab roof, backhead, Cartazzi frames, bogie and various sundry items came from an A1. The cylinders and motion (modified) came from the A2, and the cabsides and tender came from an A3. I scratch-built the frames, front end, central footplate section and the tiny deflectors. It then went to DJH for assessment, before it was returned for Ian Rathbone to paint it.  

 

A couple of years later, the production kits appeared...... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is one of those first production builds, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

 

How many I've built since, I'm not sure, but this one became THANE OF FIFE (I built two THANES OF FIFE at the same time). Because the customer for this one had fairly tight radii, I opted for under-scale bogie wheels, which rather spoil the 'look'. 

 

 

WOLF OF BADENOCH seems to be the most popular choice (actually more popular, because the DJH kit only really makes up to 60505 or 60506, without modification). 

 

This one was painted by Geoff Haynes.

 

I wonder when Hornby's will arrive. Not any time soon, I'd imagine...................

 

 

Hi Tony

 

They truly are magnificent models and as a modeller who does not have the skills to build an A2/2 I am truly grateful that sometime in the future they will be available from Hornby in RTR and I think I can thank you for that as well.

 

Whether they will be anywhere near the standard of your A2/2 models is another question altogether.

 

Regards

 

David

[Woodcock29]

23 minutes ago, micklner said:

Have you your own build thread on the O4's please?

I have acquired a GWR ROD Body and I also have a spare Bachmann LNER O4 . I am trying to find out what combination of parts makes the best LNER version including the Tender ( I have G Kings resin Tender parts ). The one thread I have found used the GWR Cab and Footplate and the LNER boiler combination. Yours look like they still have the LNER Cab fitted ?

 

Any help will be  appreciatted to clear the fog !!.

Sorry - I don't have my own thread, been too lazy I think. I'm sure Tony won't mind if I give you some pointers here.

 

Basically the GWR footplate is the better one as it has a shorter wide section over the cylinders and the bolt heads on the front frames which most locos had - basically  Bachmann got the shape of the footplate wrong on the O4 version - I don't know why they don't use the ROD footplate on their subsequent O4 models? Maybe its all too difficult with dedicated tooling for each version?

 

You should use the O4 boiler. However, you need to decide whether you want an O4/1 (ie original GC loco as inherited by the LNER at Grouping) or an ex ROD version  which was bought by the LNER in the 1920s from surplus Govt stock. 

 

The O4/1s were fitted with vacuum brake and therefore had the ejector pipe inside the handrail on the righthand side of the boiler as the Bachmann O4 has and also had water pickup so you need to use the King tender water pickup box arrangement for the rear deck of the tender and you need to remove the rear coal plate on the tender, and fit a ships wheel to the front of the tender for operating the water pickup gear (Judith Edge can supply these for £2). Note however that water pickup was generally removed after 1946 - so it depends on period you are modelling. You will need to fit a vacuum pipe to the front as well as the oval buffers from the O4 footplate - they pull out with a little bit of persuasion. 

 

If you build an O4/3 you need to use the O4 boiler but use the GWR cab as the rear angle iron on the cab roof is further forward - a feature of the ex ROD locos. My two O4/3s built from Bachmann parts do use the GWR cab - but you will need to remove the two whistles and then determine whether the single whistle for the engine you are modelling was on the top of the firebox in front of the cab or still on the roof, but in the centre (earlier period). You will need to remove the vacuum ejector pipe inside the boiler handrail which will probably mean making a new handrail and fitting new handrail pillars. You will also need to use the oval buffers from the O4 footplate.

 

I trust this is of some help micklner and that it all makes sense.

 

Andrew

[mark axlecounter]

On 27/04/2020 at 17:22, MarkC said:

A question - did this L&Y Aspinall Class 27 kit become part of the Craftsman range? I've got a kit in the roundtuit collection at home, but I'm sure, wracking the braincell here, that it says 'Craftsman' on the box. Am I confused, were they taken over, or was it a different kit altogether?

 

Mark

(All at sea...)

Mark the craftsman kit was there own product. 
I might be wrong but they were in production at the same time just by different companies. 
both are totally different in design. 
I can’t get hold of my 2 mpd A classes but here are 2 and one to build craftsman A class locos. 
 

Mark T 

[mark axlecounter]

It’s Tony’s fault that I got into building Loco kits, I watched his dvds ha ha. 
I was great full to have spoken to him and Mo at shows and I will never forget the Bristol show, I got what Tony called criticism but in my eyes he has taught me how to better myself how to apply different methods and how to overcome my faults. 

Tony also gave me the courage to build a DJH Loco kit 

I speak to lots of kit builders and I have gained more help then I would ever imagined from these people so this is to say thank you to Tony and all the people who have helped me over the past 20 years. 
 

Mark T 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by mark axlecounter
Spellings

[CUTLER2579]

1 hour ago, landscapes said:

Hi Tony

 

They truly are magnificent models and as a modeller who does not have the skills to build an A2/2 I am truly grateful that sometime in the future they will be available from Hornby in RTR and I think I can thank you for that as well.

 

Whether they will be anywhere near the standard of your A2/2 models is another question altogether.

 

Regards

 

David

 

Not wishing to spread Doom & Gloom, but Hornby and many other companies have got to come out of the present situation in a position where it is financially possible for them to continue with projects such as the A2/2 & A2/3.

I fear life is never going to be as it was back in 2019.

[Barry O]

50 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

 

Not wishing to spread Doom & Gloom, but Hornby and many other companies have got to come out of the present situation in a position where it is financially possible for them to continue with projects such as the A2/2 & A2/3.

I fear life is never going to be as it was back in 2019.

If Hornby and Bachmann are as busy as some of our smaller manufacturers are here at the moment they should be fine. Big problems at the moment..... etching companies closed, PECO are shut (meaning shortages of RTR Track) and some printers are closed (reduced availability of some transfers etc).

 

Baz

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, mark axlecounter said:

Mark the craftsman kit was there own product. 
I might be wrong but they were in production at the same time just by different companies. 
both are totally different in design. 
I can’t get hold of my 2 mpd A classes but here are 2 and one to build craftsman A class locos. 
 

Mark T 

Hi Mark - and Michael, as I saw you replied too - thank you both. One day I will get it built...

 

How strange that back then 2 small companies produced kits of the same prototype.

 

Mark

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

No, thanks, I have some.  the carriages I bought from Dave Scott at Hartlepool have what sound like the same thing.   Tony bought a couple as well so maybe he has some?   I was looking at regauging them just the other night and they went into the 'too hard' pile.

I re-wheeled the carriages I bought off Dave, Jonathan; with Jackson/Romford 14mm discs. 

 

The originals (set to EM) in the bogies were too fine for the M&GNR bit of LB, anyway, even if I'd re-gauged them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[landscapes]

1 hour ago, CUTLER2579 said:

 

Not wishing to spread Doom & Gloom, but Hornby and many other companies have got to come out of the present situation in a position where it is financially possible for them to continue with projects such as the A2/2 & A2/3.

I fear life is never going to be as it was back in 2019.

Hi

 

You could possibly be right, my logic is if they do produce them then great if not I have just saved nearly £400.00.

 

But you do make a very valid point.

 

Regards

 

David