Wright writes.....

[Clearwater]

Hi Tony

 

I hope you and Mo and family are well during this virus. I’ve been reading your book on the building of Little Bytham and had a couple of questions if I may?

 

When the track was laid, were the fuse wire strips already attached to the rails and the holes for the wires already drilled or was this done after the track was glued and ballasted?

 

Kind regards

 

David

[Woodcock29]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I know how many hours of research and work went into the book and he would have been very pleased that people find it useful. He always thought it may be a bit too obscure a subject for a book and might have very limited appeal. 

Tony (G)

Malcolm's book ranks along with Yeadon's Appendix on LNER tenders, which of course covers the GC tenders so well, as indispensable parts of my library. I'm lucky my main two interests are the ex GC and GN parts of the LNER!

 

Recently I had need to sort tender types on a Q6, that was difficult and could only be done with photos.

 

Andrew

[Steven B]

On 04/05/2020 at 15:13, Dragonboy said:

One of my N gauge projects, Frogan’s Yard, is an inner city area small goods yard which I originally ran as Green Diesels however my original and first love of LMS has resurfaced as the pictures hopefully show. The problem I’m currently grappling with however is road transport to carry the off loaded goods away. 
 

I’m aware of a couple of options from PD Marsh and Langley but I was wondering if anyone could offer any further suggestions I would be grateful as the only road transport I’ve found of suitable age is a taxi.

 

 

Shirescenes do some lovely etched brass kits including a horse drawn coal merchant's cart

https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Shire_Scenes_1_160.html

 

Steven B.

[Steven B]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

In my view, such provision lets the kit down. Without machine tools, how is one expected to to accurately face-off the ends of these bits? Just checking (very crudely, I admit), the boiler is slightly over-long, which means it'll have to be shortened slightly. I'm not good enough with my hand/eye coordination to do that with files. It needs a lathe.

 

Would a pipe cutter, as found in a plumbers tool kit give a decent enough edge to work with?

 

How to produce an accurately faced-off end? A file, lots of patience and constant measuring. A former colleague of mine did his apprenticeship with the MOD. He wasn't allowed to move onto machine tools until he could square up a tube or bar accurately with just hand tools. He spent weeks trying to make a perfect 1" cube, any side or angle out of tolerance resulted in starting again...

 

Steven B

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

Hi Tony

 

I hope you and Mo and family are well during this virus. I’ve been reading your book on the building of Little Bytham and had a couple of questions if I may?

 

When the track was laid, were the fuse wire strips already attached to the rails and the holes for the wires already drilled or was this done after the track was glued and ballasted?

 

Kind regards

 

David

Good afternoon David,

 

We're all very well, thank you. I hope you, your wife and the boys are well, too.

 

The track was laid first and the wiring diagram prepared. I then drilled all the dropper holes as necessary as near as possible to each rail. The rails had been already-weathered, so I just scraped off a bit at the outside edge of the web as necessary, then soldered all the droppers in place, touching each up with a dab of brown/grey paint afterwards. Each dropper was given an appropriate code (you might see some of these written on the underside of the baseboards) and I then joined up which wires I could (all the common returns, for instance) to each other and to the appropriate bus bars. Every section of rail, however short, has its own feed - fishplates should NEVER be relied upon to conduct electricity; their purpose should be solely mechanical. When Norman Solomon arrived with the control panel (on his second visit), we then (as a pair) completed the wiring. 

 

The job was staggered over two visits of two days' duration each, with a month in between; to allow time for him to build the control panel and to give me the time to install the point motors and do as much wiring as was necessary. Normally, Norman would have done all the work, but we decided I'd do a lot of the initial installation/wiring; for two reasons, really. One, although the cost of the job was offset by the making of a DVD and the writing of articles, a top pro' cannot work on a charity basis, and two; if anything should go wrong with the wiring, then I needed to have an idea how to fix it. I've seen too many 'professionally-built' layouts/stock where the owner has no practical input (other than providing the idea and the cash) and when anything goes wrong they're stuffed. That said, I did need Tony Gee to fix a Fulgurex point motor after it completely puzzled me. Speaking of these motors, they'd not be my first choice, but apart from two 'failures' (one of which my elder son and I fixed - at over 70, soldering 'uphill' is not to be recommended!), they've worked all right, but how they'd stand up to exhibition conditions, I'm not sure. 

 

I laid all the main line non-scenic/fiddle yard trackwork and installed the point motors/micro switches. I also laid/wired-up all the M&GNR bit. The main line non-scenic/fiddle yard section was wired-up by the usual team from WMRC over a couple of days, Rob Kinsey building the control panel, for which I 'paid' by building a loco for him. Ian Wilson made the M&GNR control panel (again, as part of barter). 

 

I hope this answers your questions, and I hope you enjoy the book.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

52 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

Would a pipe cutter, as found in a plumbers tool kit give a decent enough edge to work with?

 

How to produce an accurately faced-off end? A file, lots of patience and constant measuring. A former colleague of mine did his apprenticeship with the MOD. He wasn't allowed to move onto machine tools until he could square up a tube or bar accurately with just hand tools. He spent weeks trying to make a perfect 1" cube, any side or angle out of tolerance resulted in starting again...

 

Steven B

Thanks Steven,

 

A plumber's pipe cutter? I don't know; because of not really knowing any plumbers nor ever having seen a pipe cutter in action. 

 

It would make an interesting adjunct to the instructions - 'For making sure that the boiler/smokebox ends are true, make friends with a plumber and borrow his pipe cutter'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

A plumber's pipe cutter? I don't know; because of not really knowing any plumbers nor ever having seen a pipe cutter in action. 

 

 

Basic ones are cheap and easily obtained, e.g. this. With care, it can produce a reasonably true cut but it can squeeze the material so that there's a slight taper over the last 3 mm or so, as seen at the left-hand end of the piece of tube here, being used as a former for a Plastikard boiler:

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[Tony Wright]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Basic ones are cheap and easily obtained, e.g. this. With care, it can produce a reasonably true cut but it can squeeze the material so that there's a slight taper over the last 3 mm or so, as seen at the left-hand end of the piece of tube here, being used as a former for a Plastikard boiler:

 

Many thanks,

 

However, I think I'll just make replacements from brass sheet.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Malcolm had hoped to include photographs and wanted a photo of each type portrayed in the book. As his health deteriorated, he realised that if he delayed sending it off for publication until all the photos were found, he may not finish it. In the end it was all a bit of a rush and he would have liked to have done more work on it but that wasn't possible. He decided that rather than put some photos in, it would make more sense for somebody to do a supplement with all the photos together. There was talk of that happening but I haven't heard anything for ages now, so perhaps it isn't going to happen.

 

I know how many hours of research and work went into the book and he would have been very pleased that people find it useful. He always thought it may be a bit too obscure a subject for a book and might have very limited appeal. 

 

Just to update that fellow GNRS member Steve White is looking at, and collating more photographs and information on a supplement to the Tender book.  But as Malcolm suggested,  trying to find a photograph and clearly identify it as one type of tender is proving to be very difficult but not altogether impossible. It's a case of watch this space...

[t-b-g]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Basic ones are cheap and easily obtained, e.g. this. With care, it can produce a reasonably true cut but it can squeeze the material so that there's a slight taper over the last 3 mm or so, as seen at the left-hand end of the piece of tube here, being used as a former for a Plastikard boiler:

 

 

Don't go showing Tony W photos of plastic boilers. It will make him come over all peculiar!

 

I have used brass tube for quite a few boilers and never had any problems marking them out and cutting an end square with the piercing saw. I have rolled sheet material too and If anything, I find the brass tube easier.

 

If you have a vice that has a V shaped recess that allows you to grip a tube, you can turn it round as you cut it, which is much easier than trying to cut all the way through from one side keeping it square. 

 

The latest is the one in my 4mm Valour.

 

 

 

The tube I had in stock was ever so slightly too small, so I split it along the bottom from front to back, put two extra rings of the original tube inside at the front and the back and used the two short sections as formers to spring the main boiler tube out slightly. The whole of the boiler bottom edge is invisible so the cut cannot be seen. A second bit of tube, cut along the bottom and sprung out over the boiler tube, made the smokebox drum bigger but that then has a brass wrapper which forms the actual visible part.

 

The dome and the shape of the smokebox door have been improved since the photo was taken. Both were not quite right! 

 

 

[Andy Reichert]

3 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Just to update that fellow GNRS member Steve White is looking at, and collating more photographs and information on a supplement to the Tender book.  But as Malcolm suggested,  trying to find a photograph and clearly identify it as one type of tender is proving to be very difficult but not altogether impossible. It's a case of watch this space...

 

True TLC.

 

Andy

[t-b-g]

21 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Just to update that fellow GNRS member Steve White is looking at, and collating more photographs and information on a supplement to the Tender book.  But as Malcolm suggested,  trying to find a photograph and clearly identify it as one type of tender is proving to be very difficult but not altogether impossible. It's a case of watch this space...

 

Great news. The more photos Malcolm saw, the more variations he spotted! Many tenders seem to have been modified over their many years of service and although a GA will show how they were (very likely) when new, the modifications were rarely documented or covered by known drawings. Working out which type a tender was before it was altered wasn't always easy.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 04/05/2020 at 18:13, Tony Wright said:

 

 

A Blacksmiths NLR 0-6-0 Tank, the type which ended its days on the Cromford and High Peak. 

 

I've never built one of these before (it's obviously a commission, in EM), but it seemed an interesting project. Until I opened the box!

 

 

This is what one gets for the boiler/inner smokebox. Two pieces of roughly-cut brass tube, with an amusing 'notch to clear motor as necessary' instruction. 

 

There is no scale drawing, so whether the tubes are anywhere near the right length, I have no idea. What nonsense in my view! I'll make these parts from brass sheet, rolling them accordingly. I might have considered the brass tubes had they been accurately-machined, but not like this. I no longer have access to a comprehensive metalworkshop (teaching did have its ups!), so there's no way I'm going to try and file the edges true. 

 

I know I extol others to make things, but what chance the beginner/inexperienced with something like this? Dismal failure, unless they're brilliant, then disillusionment and another kit gathering dust in a crumbling box.

 

 

 

 

When I was at work one of the first things that we did with new engineering apprentices was to teach them to use a file. While most of them were highly computer literate few of then could use basic hand tools. We put them to shame as there was a woman who had no engineering qualifications who could prepare samples of steel for tensile testing and could file samples with parallel edges within 11/2 thou by hand and eye. Experience counts for a lot. I do agree  a kit sold to the general public should contain parts that are rather better than the example that you have.

Bernard

[chris p bacon]

36 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

When I was at work one of the first things that we did with new engineering apprentices was to teach them to use a file.

Going off topic a little with this one but my Father had a similar apprenticeship.

 He was apprenticed as a Marine engineer at Allens of Bedford in 1936 and the first task they gave him involved a piece of 1" thick steel plate with a 3/4" hole bored in it, and a 1 1/2" or 2" rod, his task was to open out the 3/4" round hole to a 1" square hole, and to reduce the rod to a 63/64th's  square bar so it fitted through the hole with a fag paper as tolerance. All this had to be done with just 3 files, smooth, medium and B'stard. IIRC it took him 5 days to do and he passed. .......

The skill he had can't be genetic as I have trouble filing plasticard square!

[Clearwater]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon David,

 

We're all very well, thank you. I hope you, your wife and the boys are well, too.

 

I hope this answers your questions, and I hope you enjoy the book.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Many thanks Tony, much appreciated.  I can imagine how it was done now.  We’re fine thanks though the challenges of being cooped up, full time jobs and trying to home school elder son somehow mean there isn’t much free time at present!  Elder son, 8, is missing his friends and school.

 

It really is an excellent book with some great photos.  In some respects, I enjoy the articles and books more where one follows the layout from bare board to nearly complete.  It makes it much easier to think how you might achieve something for yourself.  The “Black CountryBlues” thread and articles are similarly informative and would benefit massively from being combined into a single volume!

 

Kind regards’

 

David

[Headstock]

What a lot of fuss about a bit of tube, when I do boilers, I bore out solid brass rod with a rusty hairclip! Today's generation of old codgers don't know when they were born.

[great central]

35 minutes ago, Headstock said:

What a lot of fuss about a bit of tube, when I do boilers, I bore out solid brass rod with a rusty hairclip! Today's generation of old codgers don't know when they were born.

 

Huh, get you with your fancy brass!

I had to make do with straightening a bent piece of old lead water pipe, then cut out the motor space with a tea spoon sharpened on the door step!

Edited May 5, 2020 by great central
Missing word

[gr.king]

7 minutes ago, great central said:

 

Huh, get you with your fancy brass!

I had to make do with straightening a bent piece of old lead water pipe, then cut out the motor space with a tea spoon sharpened on the door step!

 

So you lived in a posh house with teaspoons and a door step? Luxury!

[great central]

18 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

So you lived in a posh house with teaspoons and a door step? Luxury!

 

We had a fountain as well for a time..........

[Hollar]

6 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

 

Shirescenes do some lovely etched brass kits including a horse drawn coal merchant's cart

https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Shire_Scenes_1_160.html

 

Steven B.

Their Dart Castings stable mates do some lovely carts, too.  I built this cart (seen on my diorama) in memory of boyhood holidays in Ireland, scattering before local farmer Con Hayes who was never the same after seeing Ben Hur in the Carrigaline cinema.  Took much longer to paint than to build.

 

Tone

[polybear]

6 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

Would a pipe cutter, as found in a plumbers tool kit give a decent enough edge to work with?

 

 

Possibly, if done very slowly and gently to avoid distortion or tapering of the tube end.  However, the piece of brass tube supplied in the kit wouldn't be long enough - it would need a longer piece such that the rollers on the cutter have material to rest on on both sides of the cut line.

 

Another option would be to use a good mitre saw, such as a Nobex & fitted with a fine toothed blade for cutting metal.  I believe the Nobex was supposedly accurate to 0.06 degrees, which is a bit better than I can manage by hand....

 

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, great central said:

 

Huh, get you with your fancy brass!

I had to make do with straightening a bent piece of old lead water pipe, then cut out the motor space with a tea spoon sharpened on the door step!

Motor? Luxury! When I started out I had to use a rubber band to power me models, you know those the postman dropped on the path outside t' front door......

[Headstock]

12 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Motor? Luxury! When I started out I had to use a rubber band to power me models, you know those the postman dropped on the path outside t' front door......

 

Front door?................

[grahame]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

What a lot of fuss about a bit of tube, when I do boilers, I bore out solid brass rod with a rusty hairclip! Today's generation of old codgers don't know when they were born.

 

Rod? You were lucky. I had to make do with a bit of bent and battered bar. And that was only I'd made it by heating copper and zinc ore and . . . 

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

... 

 

Surely a loco kit should be able to be built without the use of machine tools? If not, then the fact that it can't be should be expressed in the instructions. 

 

.... 

 

I understand your point, Tony, but actually it's worse than that.  By the time the would-be modeller has accumulated not just the kit but the motor, gearbox, wheels, couplings of choice and other gubbins and actually  begins to start studying the instructions and the supplied components in detail with a view to commencing assembly ... it's too late; he (/she) is already a couple of hundred quid down the tubes and the proud owner of something they won't even begin to have the skill-set ,and the tools, to build until they have at least a dozen or more 'simpler' kits under their belt.  So at best yet another one goes on the "one of these days" pile, or else the purchaser gives up in despair and vows to stick to R-T-R in future.

 

Information like that needs to be on the outside of the box as an absolute minimum, and preferably in the manufacturer's catalogue and/or on their website and advertising.  I have argued before that the manufacturers and product reviewers really ought to subscribe to a 'difficulty rating' system against a widely accepted set of simple criteria.  It seems to work well enough in plastic aircraft modelling; why not in model railways?