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1 hour ago, PMP said:

 

More recently, the Shorts Belfast built Tucano trainers were equally variable in their build quality, the riggers having many stories of trying to get them ‘square’, particularly the early ones.

 

I can relate to that...

 

p51.jpg.20b5f684619c0eead9ba9f3bbdb408b4.jpg

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9 hours ago, FarrMan said:
10 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Rotring ink isn't as dense as paint and you end up with translucent lines.  

 

I thought so. i wonder if anyone has tried it with paint thinned down?

 

 Having extensively used these pens when drawing the diagrams for my thesis, long ago, I would not have thought that paint was a viable option, evern when thinned down.

 

They were prone to gumming up even with Rotring ink and needed constant cleaning, which involved dismantling the nibs.

This was alright on the larger diameter ones but resulted in more than one of the finer nibs becoming broken/unusable.

 

I ordered enough on "expenses" to keep some for railway purposes and found a good opaque white ink for lettering but I have not used them for ages now.

 

Hope that this is of interest.

 

Ian T

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11 hours ago, FarrMan said:

I don't appear to be able to get rid of this bit in my replies box

 

but I do wish I could bow pen, keep trying, keep failing, only use it now for Replica glazing bars.

 

I have noticed several comments over time about not being able to use a bow pen. I wonder if anyone has tried using a Rotring pen such

 

https://www.rotring.com/uk/technical-pens/196-rapidograph-pen-4006856155006.html

 

I have only used it with Rotring ink for drawings on plastic film (long before the days of CAD), and never for modelling. As it produces a fixed width line, it might be easier to use than a bow pen.

 

On the subject of mixing imperial and metric measurements, I was at university during the changeover period, 1968-1971. I remember in one lab, probably a soils lab, the equipment that we had to weigh our samples consisted of a balance where we could put standard weights on one side, and the difference between that and the sample was given by a long pointer reading over a scale. The problem was that the scale was in one system and the standard weights were in the other, so that we had to convert one of them every time.

 

Lloyd

In the past I've combined both techniques. For example, lining BR coaches I'd make a fairly wide yellow line with the bow pen (slightly thinned Humbrol enamel) then go over it with a Rotring pen to make the black line. Rotring black is (was?) proper Indian ink so quite dense and opaque.

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3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The rail industry has no reason to be treated as second-rate.  The floors of BREL York-built Networker stock was constructed from slotted-together aluminium extrusions.  These nearly 23 metre sections were laser-measured and are supposed to be accurate in length to less than 1 millimetre, so an accuracy of about 1 in 23,000. 

On the other hand, the curved piece between the roof, end and side panels on Mk3 was hand-beaten to fit - at least on the earliest builds.

 

I know, coz I was there (didn't do any panel beating though).

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1 hour ago, ianathompson said:

 

 Having extensively used these pens when drawing the diagrams for my thesis, long ago, I would not have thought that paint was a viable option, evern when thinned down.

 

They were prone to gumming up even with Rotring ink and needed constant cleaning, which involved dismantling the nibs.

This was alright on the larger diameter ones but resulted in more than one of the finer nibs becoming broken/unusable.

 

I ordered enough on "expenses" to keep some for railway purposes and found a good opaque white ink for lettering but I have not used them for ages now.

 

Hope that this is of interest.

 

Ian T

In the good old bad old days before Woodhead transfers I used to hand-letter 00 gauge wagons using a 0.1mm Rotring nib with Rotring white ink. Any other brand of ink gummed the nib up solid. Even with Rotring ink, I needed to clean it every hour or so.

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On 19/05/2020 at 18:08, Tony Wright said:

What a wonderful range of opinions, points of view and observations today.

 

Thank you all; to the pragmatists (I hope I'm one) to the more-zealous (I never knew Frankenstein was a railway modeller!), a great selection. 

 

I think as long as a model 'captures' the 'flavour' of the prototype, runs well and is the product of personal workmanship then that is 'enough'. Enough for me, though one should try and get it as 'right' as possible; as my building of the Crownline J17 of late has illustrated.................

 

376585037_J1711.jpg.a815cd79c20a1369737c660ca7dc3e53.jpg

 

I think the addition of boiler fittings makes a huge difference to the overall 'look'. To have raised the smokebox/boiler/firebox up by 2mm, would have blanked off the bottom of the spectacles. There's a cladding band just ahead of the spectacle plate, which might have given a false impression. 

 

825943427_J1710.jpg.ecc89ad868573f0247fdc2d597dcac11.jpg

 

Now packed with lead, it'll pull over 50 wagons with ease!

 

 

 

 

Looking superb. At least you didn't have to start with the Bec kit - now that requires serious butchery!

 

WP_20200406_14_20_05_Pro.jpg.89af460d4dbbb482560c8ca5de955ba7.jpg

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10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

What is the effect you're trying to achieve, Chris?

 

A heavily-weathered carriage? It seems to have turned lighter to the right, or is this the lighting?

 

Where possible nowadays, I paint the carriages I build with Halfords car acrylic rattle cans, using appropriate colours (Ford Burgundy Red for BR maroon, for instance). 

 

In the case of Mailcoach carriages, where, to me, spray-painting is not an option, I use enamels applied with sables. 

 

1386448025_ex-SilverJubileetriplet.jpg.a87cbce4db8e677c3b1412fdc28f00bf.jpg

 

This ex-Silver Jubilee triplet was painted using Winsor and Newton's sables applying Railmatch BR maroon enamel (several coats), transfer-lined and finished off with a coat of polyurethane satin varnish; again, sable-applied.

 

722054640_TouristBSOonlayout03.jpg.8d9787625e9b5afdefbefe3a980f2bc3.jpg

 

This Tourist BTO had the same treatment.

 

I stress again, I don't think a decent brush-applied finish can be achieved with cheap brushes.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Morning .Tony, 
Yes, the effect I was after was a heavily weathered carriage. The light in my dining room wasn’t the best for photos last night, so I’ve taken another this morning 

33F64B22-3F77-4444-BFA5-213A1B1C0851.jpeg.6ca03360d056130b75306d6c5db52543.jpeg

I’m fairly happy with it for a first attempt, but it’s probably a bit too heavy when carriages were cleaned on a regular basis. I used my last serviceable brush to do it, so I do need to invest in some half decent paint brushes in the near future! Limited by funds on what I can spend though unfortunately. I did a couple of panels on the other side of the coach with a Humbrol brown wash, just to see how it turned out....

54013DF5-B81A-46D3-AD37-FBCA22F078DF.jpeg.15f8fd1bb664778817306f657e8cdbb8.jpeg

First time for using a wash or dry brushing, as apart from spraying my kit built coaches with rattle cans, my experience of painting models is limited to a teenage me covering Airfix fighter jet kits with what I thought was a really awesome looking camouflage paint job....
 

Chris

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18 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Yes, I can vouch for that.  I helped with the overhaul at the end of the 1970s/early 80s and a lot of the motion was stamped 60026.

The rear driver's side coupling rod on LMS No.5000 In Locomotion at Shildon is stamped 'AW&Co'.

I have taken great delight in pointing this out to visitors after a colleague pointed it out to me.

 

There is a splendid picture (somewhere) of a Q6 hauling a delivery train of brand-new 'Black 5s' from AW westwards on the N&C. That would make a splendid model.

 

There is also quite a nice collection of numbers stamped on the motion and side-rods of 'Green Arrow'.

 

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I'm deliberately saying nothing about the way to produce teak-effect painting. My own method tends to involve an inconvenient number of stages, and following the withdrawal of one of the products I liked to use some years ago, I have repeatedly been annoyed by inconsistent final shade of colours and less than perfectly smooth finish. It does at least tend to look good enough once the lining and transfers are applied.

 

Plenty of trials on test pieces before committing to a cherished model would seem to be a sensible plan for anybody to follow, regardless of proposed methods.

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As an alternative - or additional - technique for teaking, I offer the enclosed as an example of what I've ended up doing for the small amount of such vehicles I've produced for Grantham. After the application of a conventional paint finish, the final act is to apply teak wood stain(!) which has a sort of nice ring to it.

 

It's a tricky process and I do not for one minute regard that I have mastered it to any great extent but it does provide for some variation and, most importantly, allow the grain direction to be depicted. Simply draw the brush along each panel in turn in the direction of the grain.

 

The finish on the vehicle depicted can only be described as 'fresh out of shops' and is arguably still too uniform. But I offer it up as an idea to try out for anyone interested.

6-wheelers24.JPG

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20 hours ago, FarrMan said:

I thought so. i wonder if anyone has tried it with paint thinned down?

 

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:
10 hours ago, ianathompson said:

Having extensively used these pens when drawing the diagrams for my thesis, long ago, I would not have thought that paint was a viable option, evern when thinned down.

 

They were prone to gumming up even with Rotring ink and needed constant cleaning, which involved dismantling the nibs.

This was alright on the larger diameter ones but resulted in more than one of the finer nibs becoming broken/unusable.

 

I ordered enough on "expenses" to keep some for railway purposes and found a good opaque white ink for lettering but I have not used them for ages now.

 

Hope that this is of interest.

 

Ian T

In the good old bad old days before Woodhead transfers I used to hand-letter 00 gauge wagons using a 0.1mm Rotring nib with Rotring white ink. Any other brand of ink gummed the nib up solid. Even with Rotring ink, I needed to clean it every hour or so.

 

I admit I haven't done lining with pens for many years, but two things I remember:

 

1.  When using anything other than 'proper' drawing pen ink, Faber Castell draughting pens were far superior to Rotring, partly because the nib dismantled more conveniently to clean the helix etc., and the metals the nibs were made from dragged less and didn't allow pigments to build up on them so much.

 

2.  I used to use Speedry Opaque Magic Color (I've just Googled it, and it is still available in a variety of colours, appropriate for lining several liveries).  It's a genuinely opaque acrylic medium that works a treat in draughting pens - or at least it used to - looking at the advert on Amazon just now it looks the same stuff, but paints and inks these days have a habit of having their formulae changed and never quite being as good as they used to be, so I can't guarantee it.  The bottles come with a useful pipette in the lid and seem to average around £7 each (in my experience a bottle will last many years - I still have many of mine from 25 years ago or more and I've just checked them and the contents are fine).  Worth a try?

 

Pete T.

 

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53 minutes ago, PJT said:

I used to use Speedry Opaque Magic Color

 

 If I remember rightly this was where the white came from that I used to use, although I thought that they spelt it as "Opake".

It was good quality stuff but I accept the caveat regarding modern stuff.

I have problems in other areas in trying to match modern dyes with ones produced years ago, even though they are supposed to be the same products.

They obviously aren't or the chemical composition of Tetrion has changed!

 

48918815523_75b377c6ac_z.jpg6-19 by Ian Thompson, on Flickr

 

I am sure that the modelling standards, and perhaps the choice of prototype, will appal all and sundry but the last wagon illustrates a point. 

The info panel in the bottom right hand corner was done years ago with Opake, as were the chalk marks, and it is still clear.

The wagon numbers are important to me as I operate using a homespun variation of the American "car card" systems.

The number on the door, which is a nod to declining eyesight, was done more recently in a modern white gel pen.

This was much more convenient to use but it is not anything like as opaque as its misspelt namesake and required two or three passes to be readable.

 

Don't go asking for white gel pens in your local staionery store.

There was some problem (I don't suspect that they sold too many!) and so production was terminated.

At least I bought two or three during the short window when they were available and I will soldier on with them for the foreseeable future.

 

Ian T

Edited by ianathompson
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19 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The aviation would have you believe they have always worked to much greater standards, but my experience of the abandoned Nimrod MRA4 programme would suggest otherwise.  These airframes dated back to the days of the DH Comet and one of the many, many problems affecting the rebuilds were no two were the same, so what should have been a standard fitment became a series of custom-builds.  It was said that the variation in some dimensions between airframes could be measured in inches.

 

Edit: Thanks to Willie Whizz for recording the same story earlier, I hadn't caught up that far in the thread.  The Nimrod programme was a disaster from beginning to end though.........

 

15 hours ago, PMP said:

 

More recently, the Shorts Belfast built Tucano trainers were equally variable in their build quality, the riggers having many stories of trying to get them ‘square’, particularly the early ones.

 

Without doubt this is true for older airframes built in the pre-CAD / CAM days. Things are much more accurate and repeatable now. My anecdote stems from a visit to BAE Dunsfold in 1999.  I had to trial fit an electronics bay gasket that my company had made to fit the Sea Harrier FA2. There were two types of airframe. The new build FA2. All the gaskets fitted the panel shape and hole positions within a millimetre. All the airframes that were being upgraded from Sea Harrier FR1 to FA2 were awful. Every one was different and I don’t recall getting a gasket to fit on half a dozen airframes that we looked at. Airframe construction was certainly the coach builders art up until the late 1980s and arguably still is but probably only for the home builder of light aircraft.

 

cheers...Morgan

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4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

As an alternative - or additional - technique for teaking, I offer the enclosed as an example of what I've ended up doing for the small amount of such vehicles I've produced for Grantham. After the application of a conventional paint finish, the final act is to apply teak wood stain(!) which has a sort of nice ring to it.

 

It's a tricky process and I do not for one minute regard that I have mastered it to any great extent but it does provide for some variation and, most importantly, allow the grain direction to be depicted. Simply draw the brush along each panel in turn in the direction of the grain.

 

The finish on the vehicle depicted can only be described as 'fresh out of shops' and is arguably still too uniform. But I offer it up as an idea to try out for anyone interested.

6-wheelers24.JPG

Graham

This model of what I presume is an etched brass Dia 148 raises an interesting question. There are two gas lamps over the toilets which seems logical as there were two separate toilets but no ventilators. My model of Dia 148 shown on the previous page and now here again for comparison has only one gas lamp and two ventilators as printed on the roof by Bill.  This doesn't really make sense to me as the single gas lamp flue is actually over the dividing wall between the toilets. I wonder if someone can provide any enlightenment as I've yet to find a photo of  a real one?

 

526546198_IMG_0311ps.jpg.7646bce14f17bdeb4c612b2247913fc0.jpg

Interestingly, I discovered after I got mine from Bill, that the GNRS publications on the Howlden coaches (that I only got earlier this year) showed that all 4 of these Dia 148s were cascaded to the M&GN by 1912 so doesn't suit my layout (or Grantham for that matter) its a good thing we have Rule 1! The GNRS publications also shed some interesting light on numbering which I assume is more accurate than some of what is provided in the D&S kits I've built so I'll be needing to change some numbers on my other 6 wheelers!

 

Andrew

Edited by Woodcock29
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1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

... and one was hit by a V2.   

 

Here is 65562, the one I built, on a special at Ramsey.  There were only a very few vac fitted ones.

Thanks Jonathan,

 

Mine will be 65551, as pictured at the top of page 26 of the appropriate Yeadon. In BR days it was shedded at Yarmouth Beach, Melton Constable and Norwich, so operating from the first two sheds, might it have ventured west of South Lynn? That's my supposition, anyway.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The Crownline J17 is 'finished' - for now!

 

827117754_J1710.jpg.11fa7cb0cd9d8d247a6fbb5d8bc2a0aa.jpg

 

650565394_J1711.jpg.f3bb3a6cba662897cecde2fb3fb2fba4.jpg

 

There's still an awful lot of cleaning up to do. After that's been achieved, I'll 'fit' the boiler bands, using my usual method of self-adhesive insulation tape, cut to the correct width. I puzzle why folk solder cladding bands on - I've only ever made a mess, and they come out too thick, anyway. As for cleaning off the excess solder afterwards.........

 

What I tend to do is 'live' with a model for a while before either I paint it (as will be this case) or it goes to Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes. That way, after thorough testing, I hope I'll be satisfied enough for it to be painted. I've hinted at the sandbox-operating rods, and I might fit sandpipes; we'll see. 

 

Apart from the missing firebox, the kit was complete. However, just be wary of buying second-hand kits; at first glance everything might appear to be there, but that's not always the case.

 

With the completion of this model, that makes the four I bought of Roy Jackson's estate last October all finished. I rebuilt the A5 and the L1, making OO frames for them, then painted, lined/numbered and weathered them. I built the B16/3 (after Roy had un-built parts of it), and that's now with Geoff Haynes for painting. Had the great man survived, might the quartet still have been in their crumbling boxes? 

 

Looking through my equally-crumbling Ian Allan abc for 1957, no J17 is underlined. By the time I got into ex-GE territory, there was very little steam left. Thus, this model breaks my usual practice of only building models of locos I actually saw. Still, it'll suit the M&GNR bit of LB - J17s were common at Spalding, but whether they got further westwards in numbers might require a bit of Rule 1! 

 

There were several variations in the class.....

 

82585652_J1765515March.jpg.40b3cde7085ec7feb0d06e472a468556.jpg

 

Some towed small tenders (and had their cabside numbers applied by very small painters!). 

 

416688657_J1765568Cambridge.jpg.5984776be44762608f8b5866ea920bda.jpg

 

One or two had weather boards on their tenders for reverse running. 

 

967231069_J1765541March.jpg.6334938b66e5b91c14eee2fe7a072e1b.jpg

 

All in all, a pretty-typical British 0-6-0. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a prototype picture of a vacuum-fitted one. 

 

 

 

 

 

I can answer one of your questions Tony. Had Roy still been around, the locos would still have been unfinished. Towards the end of his life, he had totally lost his confidence in his ability and rather than do a job less well than he used to, he would rather not do it at all. So he would sit and look at things, pick them up and put them down and do almost nothing. His hands had started to be unsteady and eyesight was so bad that he couldn't tell a straight line from a curved one any more due to the thickness of his glasses.

 

In many ways, it was sad to see somebody with his previous skill and ability struggle like that.

 

Looking at the prototype J17, The boiler bands on the first two are almost invisible. On the third one, you can just see the one ahead of the dome but the others can hardly be made out.

 

 

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