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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

One idea (worth a try?) is to dig out pictures I've taken down the years showing progress, and then re-shoot them from the same position with the layout now complete. That might be of possible interest; I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Yes please Tony.

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On 01/06/2020 at 23:28, Barry Ten said:

 

That's a very nice project, John.

 

I also finished (or near enough) my own Blue Pullman project after a mere 13 years. Mine was to be a Western Region 8 car rake

and I based it on the Tri-ang base models, using etched window replacements and some scratchbuilding. I started ordering the

parts, and scouring ebay, in 2007. 

 

bp2.jpg

 

BPfull.jpg

 

Since I took the above photo, I've added the roof detail to the kitchen cars. The  model has directionally controlled cab lights

and full interior lighting.

 

All that's left to do is a small bit of touching up of blue and grey in various places but I'm out of paint until after the lockdown.

 

Al

That's a very creditable effort, Al. 

 

I think Dave Lewis of Southern Pride used to do some bits to modify the old Tri-ang model. 

 

Of course, along came Bachmann and the company produced a remarkably-accurate rendition - at a price, of course.

 

1194418229_BachmannMidlandPullman01.jpg.0032f3ca07255c941ba6d6714964f6cb.jpg

 

I think the packaging was delightful.

 

1480232639_BachmannMidlandPullman02.jpg.88fc7624938c4e1f9ac3f1a7a9144828.jpg

 

And, I gave it a thorough test on LB (not DCC, naturally). 

 

Strangely, this recalls an actual event, where a set was tested on the ECML with a view to possibly replacing the traditional Pullmans, or at least one of them. It failed because the units weren't fast enough, I believe. The Deltics were taking the 'old-fashioned' Pullmans at 100 mph! Not only that, 100 mph was then commonplace on the ECML for all the Deltic-hauled trains, and a slower train (what was the Blue Pullman's maximum speed?) would have hindered operations. I don't think the authorities were impressed with the ride, either.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

That's a very creditable effort, Al. 

 

I think Dave Lewis of Southern Pride used to do some bits to modify the old Tri-ang model. 

 

Of course, along came Bachmann and the company produced a remarkably-accurate rendition - at a price, of course.

 

1194418229_BachmannMidlandPullman01.jpg.0032f3ca07255c941ba6d6714964f6cb.jpg

 

I think the packaging was delightful.

 

1480232639_BachmannMidlandPullman02.jpg.88fc7624938c4e1f9ac3f1a7a9144828.jpg

 

And, I gave it a thorough test on LB (not DCC, naturally). 

 

Strangely, this recalls an actual event, where a set was tested on the ECML with a view to possibly replacing the traditional Pullmans, or at least one of them. It failed because the units weren't fast enough, I believe. The Deltics were taking the 'old-fashioned' Pullmans at 100 mph! Not only that, 100 mph was then commonplace on the ECML for all the Deltic-hauled trains, and a slower train (what was the Blue Pullman's maximum speed?) would have hindered operations. I don't think the authorities were impressed with the ride, either.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Hi Tony,

The maximum permitted speed of the Blue Pullman sets was 90mph I think. 
 

Chris

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11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

No architecture to model, no civil engineering and no pointwork - just a mass of infesting wires. Oh, I forgot; yes, there's a signal, and hundreds of trees! 

 

 

 

Although some has been demolished and some replaced, there's more varied architecture now from over a longer period. Currently there are some of the largest european civil engineering projects recently undertaken or being worked on on the railways, such as HS1&2, the Chunnel, Crossrail, the Overground, Thameslink, etc. And modelling OHLE is certainly a very demanding modelling project. Plus many fail to be able to model trees and the splendor of nature effectively. 

 

There's still plenty of modern interesting subjects. It's all about choice and what individuals find interesting and a joy to model. Not everyone is the same.

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Strangely, this recalls an actual event, where a set was tested on the ECML with a view to possibly replacing the traditional Pullmans, or at least one of them.

 

Remarkably, a Western Region Blue Pullman made it as far north as Hartlepool.  On 13 March 1965, a unit was chartered to bring the Warwickshire County Rugby team in to West Hartlepool station where they were playing Durham in the final of the Rugby Union County Championship.

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1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

Although some has been demolished and some replaced, there's more varied architecture now from over a longer period. Currently there are some of the largest european civil engineering projects recently undertaken or being worked on on the railways, such as HS1&2, the Chunnel, Crossrail, the Overground, Thameslink, etc. And modelling OHLE is certainly a very demanding modelling project. Plus many fail to be able to model trees and the splendor of nature effectively. 

 

There's still plenty of modern interesting subjects. It's all about choice and what individuals find interesting and a joy to model. Not everyone is the same.

 

Good morning Grahame,

 

It's very important that not everyone is the same.

 

My point (perhaps ambiguous) is that I (personally) cannot see anything worth modelling at LB today. I'm sure modelling OHLE equipment is very demanding (not that I'll ever consider it) and I've never been much into making trees. 

 

I suppose the acid test will come long, long after I'm gone - in a further 60 years. Can you imagine anyone building a model of Little Bytham in 2080, representing how it looks today? Remember, it's even more overgrown that when I took the shot in 2007. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Carrying on with the theme of LB's 'development'....................

 

1214115839_MRJ01AB12s.jpg.33459413a83f40fb9f421288517aa07a.jpg

 

This shot appeared in the MRJ some time ago, when my article on LB was published in it. It shows my original 'fudged' girder bridge - the right width, the right length, but hopelessly inaccurate when it came to height and girder structures. 

 

Then, thankfully, along came Jamie Guest and Dave Wager...........................

 

1909128242_MGNRbridge25B.jpg.46ca793532f5e7e8d4484c89c8d9cdff.jpg

 

A bit of a difference don't you think? Once again, thanks Jamie (design and etch-work) and Dave (construction). 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Grahame,

 

It's very important that not everyone is the same.

 

My point (perhaps ambiguous) is that I (personally) cannot see anything worth modelling at LB today. I'm sure modelling OHLE equipment is very demanding (not that I'll ever consider it) and I've never been much into making trees. 

 

I suppose the acid test will come long, long after I'm gone - in a further 60 years. Can you imagine anyone building a model of Little Bytham in 2080, representing how it looks today? Remember, it's even more overgrown that when I took the shot in 2007. 

 

Grahame makes a worthwhile point - the modern railway is still much that is interesting about it - but I tend to agree with you Tony, there is less to inspire me to model it.  I say this as someone who's a generation younger than you.  It is actually indicative of the recent success of railways in the UK that trains are now longer and more frequent but also, often identical.  

 

While LB 2020 would still have a huge timetable of trains, the variety would be much less.  The passenger trains are fixed formation sets and I don't consider a 30+ wagon container train where the only variety is the order of the boxes' colours along the train, comparable to a mixed freight train with perhaps 40 wagons of 20 different types.

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9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

That's a very creditable effort, Al. 

 

I think Dave Lewis of Southern Pride used to do some bits to modify the old Tri-ang model. 

 

Of course, along came Bachmann and the company produced a remarkably-accurate rendition - at a price, of course.

 

1194418229_BachmannMidlandPullman01.jpg.0032f3ca07255c941ba6d6714964f6cb.jpg

 

I think the packaging was delightful.

 

1480232639_BachmannMidlandPullman02.jpg.88fc7624938c4e1f9ac3f1a7a9144828.jpg

 

And, I gave it a thorough test on LB (not DCC, naturally). 

 

Strangely, this recalls an actual event, where a set was tested on the ECML with a view to possibly replacing the traditional Pullmans, or at least one of them. It failed because the units weren't fast enough, I believe. The Deltics were taking the 'old-fashioned' Pullmans at 100 mph! Not only that, 100 mph was then commonplace on the ECML for all the Deltic-hauled trains, and a slower train (what was the Blue Pullman's maximum speed?) would have hindered operations. I don't think the authorities were impressed with the ride, either.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Good Morning Tony,

 

I would have thought the Blue Pullman at 90 mph with 6 cars, may have been a more likely alternative for the Master Cutler perhaps? I have seen photos of that being pulled by a Brush Type 2, I think they were 90mph maximum?

 

This is stated to be October 1965, not my photo, PH Wells from 'Modern Railways' in April 1966

 

 

Best Regards,

Lee

 

image.png.e9a1ecb681606c8f6ad73cbe2ee838e6.png

Edited by lee74clarke
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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

That's a very creditable effort, Al. 

 

I think Dave Lewis of Southern Pride used to do some bits to modify the old Tri-ang model. 

 

Of course, along came Bachmann and the company produced a remarkably-accurate rendition - at a price, of course.

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed it was the Southern Pride etched parts that were used, along with Chris Leigh castings for the bogies, and Genesis castings for the cabs.

 

I started it before the Bachmann one was announced, and might not have done so had I known there was an RTR one in the pipeline, but at the

end of it all I've got something reasonably unique* in that the power cars, second class cars and kitchen cars are all specific to the Western Region

sets, with different window spacing, bogies and so on. And while Bachmann have now done the reversed blue-grey livery, it's with the multiple

unit connections on the fronts of the power cars, which the WR 8-car units never had. So, something very far from perfect but unlikely to be replicated

in RTR or seen on too any other layouts. Was it economical, though? No, far from it - I did a rough costing a few years ago and it was already on

a par with the Bachmann sets, and that's before I added the lighting units. But the expense was spread across 13 years so didn't seem excessive

at the time.

 

Al

 

* - one for the grammar pedants

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39 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Can you imagine anyone building a model of Little Bytham in 2080, representing how it looks today? Remember, it's even more overgrown that when I took the shot in 2007. 

I suppose it would be a bit like Stoke Summit, in that the focus is on watching the trains go by rather than the scenery/infrastructure. Of course, the trains would just be endless class 91s, Azumas and class 66s, with the only variation in passenger trains being the livery. I don’t think it would take long for the operators to get so bored or for the public to get so disinterested (if it’s an exhibition layout) that they start adding in bits that weren't really there or trying to make the trains more interesting by having lots of unlikely situations happening at the same time (e.g. a steam charter passing a failed class 91 with another 91 on the front running blunt end first).

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45 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Grahame makes a worthwhile point - the modern railway is still much that is interesting about it - but I tend to agree with you Tony, there is less to inspire me to model it.  I say this as someone who's a generation younger than you.  It is actually indicative of the recent success of railways in the UK that trains are now longer and more frequent but also, often identical.  

 

While LB 2020 would still have a huge timetable of trains, the variety would be much less.  The passenger trains are fixed formation sets and I don't consider a 30+ wagon container train where the only variety is the order of the boxes' colours along the train, comparable to a mixed freight train with perhaps 40 wagons of 20 different types.

 

 

While I agree with you in the sentiments about a lack of interest in this period for me, I have to point out that your lack of interest in the prototype leaves you missing a wealth of detail.

 

That 30+ wagon container train does not just have different coloured (liveried) containers.  It may well contain 20ft, 30ft, 40ft and even 45ft containers, with heights of 8ft, 8ft 6in, 9 ft, 9ft 3in and 9ft 6in - and possibly more.  Spotting those differences might be akin to telling the difference between an ex-LMS van and an ex-LNER one.  

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1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

While I agree with you in the sentiments about a lack of interest in this period for me, I have to point out that your lack of interest in the prototype leaves you missing a wealth of detail.

 

That 30+ wagon container train does not just have different coloured (liveried) containers.  It may well contain 20ft, 30ft, 40ft and even 45ft containers, with heights of 8ft, 8ft 6in, 9 ft, 9ft 3in and 9ft 6in - and possibly more.  Spotting those differences might be akin to telling the difference between an ex-LMS van and an ex-LNER one.  

And that same container train might well have at least 3 or 4 different  types of wagons. Engineering trains can be quite varied.  Who's going to model the half mile long high output ballast cleaner top and tailed.

 

Jamie

 

 

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I think another problem with modelling the current scene is that things change so quickly, particularly liveries. We see so many modern layouts where many locos or units are in different colour schemes rather than the majority in the dominant normal livery. In the LB period change came slowly and there was a homogeneous look to the railway which has been captured so well on this most realistic layout.

Anyone wanting to correctly model the modern scene will have a more restrictive timeframe than those of us who model steam or even BR blue periods.

Bazza

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1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

That 30+ wagon container train does not just have different coloured (liveried) containers.  It may well contain 20ft, 30ft, 40ft and even 45ft containers, with heights of 8ft, 8ft 6in, 9 ft, 9ft 3in and 9ft 6in - and possibly more.  Spotting those differences might be akin to telling the difference between an ex-LMS van and an ex-LNER one.  

 

A box is a box is a box - with the best will in the world, how much individuality of design can a box incorporate.

 

I recall travelling to holiday destinations by car in the 1950s and 60s; we would have the road map in front of us, looking for road / rail interfaces, and nag Dad to stop at anything that looked as if it might be interesting. We were only succesful when comfort or meal breaks were due, but the depth of interest was very great. I recall a D600 series Warship being seen on a milk tanker train, on the Hayle viaduct - great was the excitement amongst us Midlanders! We never suspected the delights of Hayle Wharf.

 

I just cannot imagine today's younger generation having the same depth of interest in the much-diminished rail network of today.

 

John Isherwood.

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The modern railway scene can still be interesting if one knows where to look, although I do agree the options are far more limited than they were even 40 years ago, never mind 60. Branch lines, for example, are so limited in terms of operational interest for the most part that any model of them could probably just be automated.

 

That said there are still areas of interest to model, although most of them would require a lot of space and are probably only feasible in N gauge realistically. Here are my nominations (I've edited this down a lot to concentrate on the best ones).

 

1) The WCML around the Hemel Hempstead area. This is a part of the West Coast line I've become fond of as I do a lot of fishing on the Grand Union Canal which interweaves with it many times round here. The passenger services are a little dull (Pendolinos and 350s interspersed with Voyagers, Southern 377s on the MK services, and the odd steam special) but the freight is still quite interesting - it's not just container trains, there are tankers, the odd mail train with a 325 unit, and third rail stock being towed to and from Wolverton (Networker units in particular). Yes the motive power is overwhelmingly 66s, but I've also noticed 60s, 70s and 90s, plus the doubleheaded 86s which Freightliner are still (I think) using. The condition of the 66s varies from clean(ish) to shabby, to one-off liveries. Finally there's the 92s on the Caledonian Sleeper services.

 

2) Reading. This would be good to model in the final years of the HSTs, with the 800s just being introduced. This subject has everything - West Country/South Wales expresses, Cornish sleepers, local services in three directions, the Southern lines to Redhill and Clapham Junction (in their own bay platforms), frequent long stone trains to and from the Mendip quarries via the Berks & Hants line hauled by 59s and 66s, and maybe the odd electrification engineers train. Large junction station, imposing buildings which would be a modelling challenge, a huge flyover to the west, and lots and lots of sidings for berthing/storing trains in. Done well I've always thought this would be absolutely spectacular, but in 4mm scale it would require an aircraft hanger to fit it all in. In N gauge, though, it's possible to pull it off, maybe as a club project.

 

3) Machynlleth/Dovey Junction. This is the opposite to Reading, TBH, and I think some sort of freight traffic would have to be dreamt up/maintained, unless you're very interested in observing the subtleties of TfW's 158 units. Doing both stations together would be interesting if one had the space to capture the line as it goes down the Dovey valley, but realistically Machynlleth on its own would be quite feasible. Trains split and join here, and there's also a maintenance depot (which still uses the old engine shed). Dovey Junction is less interesting operationally, but I'd like to see if the ambience of the place could be captured - standing in the middle of the estuary marshes, with the mountains to the north forming the great southern wall of Gwynedd as a backdrop, and the wooden trestle bridge on the Pwllheli line as a distinctive feature. Modelling it in November time with winter oncoming would be very atmospheric.

 

4) Manchester Oxford Road area. The stretch of line along Deansgate is only double track but all on viaducts and very intensely used, by both passenger and freight traffic. There's also the option of modelling diverted Anglo Scottish trains being dragged through to Preston (this happened in the 2000s quite a bit, not sure if the route through Bolton has been wired since). Oxford Road station itself has distinctive 1960s architecture which would be a challenge to model, and the Metrolink system also crosses the railway on the old Central Station viaduct.

Edited by SD85
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1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

While I agree with you in the sentiments about a lack of interest in this period for me, I have to point out that your lack of interest in the prototype leaves you missing a wealth of detail.

 

That 30+ wagon container train does not just have different coloured (liveried) containers.  It may well contain 20ft, 30ft, 40ft and even 45ft containers, with heights of 8ft, 8ft 6in, 9 ft, 9ft 3in and 9ft 6in - and possibly more.  Spotting those differences might be akin to telling the difference between an ex-LMS van and an ex-LNER one.  

Oh believe me I know the difference, I used to watch the container trains passing my office window in Stratford, but a few varied length containers and wagon types (and the difference between them isn't always really obvious) is not the same as having coal, oil, vans and flat wagons in the same train.  The end of Speedlink really killed off the model-ability of so much modern freight, it just became too long to model realistically!

 

The lack of variety of traction is also accepted by enthusiasts; there is almost frothing when a railtour is announced with haulage by a 66 from a specific pool, or in a unique livery.  I'm old enough to remember when you had to go to specific parts of the country to see an entirely unique class.....

 

As I've said, it's not that I don't find the modern railway interesting - I do - and nostalgia aside, the UK railway is better now for the people who actually matter, the people who are paying to use it.  I'm still not inspired to model it though.

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23 hours ago, Bazza said:

I think another problem with modelling the current scene is that things change so quickly, particularly liveries. We see so many modern layouts where many locos or units are in different colour schemes rather than the majority in the dominant normal livery. In the LB period change came slowly and there was a homogeneous look to the railway which has been captured so well on this most realistic layout.

Anyone wanting to correctly model the modern scene will have a more restrictive timeframe than those of us who model steam or even BR blue periods.

Bazza

Very true - just take a look at some of the "modern image current scene" threads on RMWeb.  Woe betide an modern image RTR manufacturer who is unfortunate enough to have even a minor change to the livery of the "real thing" made just after signing off the livery details for a model!

Edited by 3rd Rail Exile
Edited in the light of Clive's comments on the term "modern image"
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12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

A box is a box is a box - with the best will in the world, how much individuality of design can a box incorporate.

 

 

A surprising amount. Not only are there different liveries/colours and sizes but some are refers, some are sheeted, some are open, some half height, some are missing, some are designed to carry waste, some for powdered/pelleted loads and so on. And then theres quite a variety in wagon types, some low floor, some pocket wagons, some articulated, some as sets, etc. Overall they might give an impression of looking similar but so too does a train load of 2-axle brown box vans which has a similar lack of individuality of design. It's a matter of looking and seeing.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Bazza said:

I think another problem with modelling the current scene is that things change so quickly, particularly liveries. 

 

I don't see that as a problem. In fact, for me, it adds interest and variety. Liveries aren't all changed overnight every week. Many linger on until a scheduled repaint/relivery, so often out of date liveries can be seen running alongside later ones for many years.

 

 

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I'm always interested by the variety of liveries on 66s. I'm not even referring to the one off ones, more to the subtleties of difference between regular liveried ones.

 

There's the Freightliner ones, which are relatively uniform, although I think Freightliner altered its livery recently. Then there are all the DB ones inherited from EWS. Some are in full DB red. Some are still in EWS livery including logos. Some are in EWS livery except the letters have been removed and a small DB sticker has been applied to the cabs. Some are very clean. Others are absolutely filthy. Some are still wearing the EWS maroon and gold quite well, on others it's faded.

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4) Machynlleth/Dovey Junction. This is the opposite to Reading, TBH, and I think some sort of freight traffic would have to be dreamt up/maintained, unless you're very interested in observing the subtleties of TfW's 158 units. Doing both stations together would be interesting if one had the space to capture the line as it goes down the Dovey valley, but realistically Machynlleth on its own would be quite feasible. Trains split and join here, and there's also a maintenance depot (which still uses the old engine shed). Dovey Junction is less interesting operationally, but I'd like to see if the ambience of the place could be captured - standing in the middle of the estuary marshes, with the mountains to the north forming the great southern wall of Gwynedd as a backdrop, and the wooden trestle bridge on the Pwllheli line as a distinctive feature. Modelling it in November time with winter oncoming would be very atmospheric.

 

One advantage of modelling Dovey Junction in November would be that you would only need to paint very few people!

 

Lloyd

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