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30 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

The 'skill' poor factor is because, unlike folk such as me, they haven't carried on modelling, thus missed out on developing those skills. The likes of schoolboy young Jamie on here are very rare, and, in my experience, the best models made are after one is 30 years old - just the time when the baby boomers were at their 'poorest'.

 

Could those who return learn the skills needed? Possibly, but, in my experience, no. Even some who've stayed in the hobby never could, and never will, largely because they put up too many 'barriers'. 

 

Generally skills aren't inherent and need to be learnt, developed and practiced to improve them. However, you need the will, desire and time to do that, and many throw up excuses as barriers to making any such effort. Even the lack of time gets used despite many of that target audience now being retired and potentially having more leisure time than before. But with this coronavirus lockdown there is currently even more home 'time' available and perhaps now is a great opportunity to have a go.

 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Perhaps my description was too general, and it's wise not to generalise - at least too much.

 

However, I think the demographic can be quite specific, or, at least, in part. Most of my questioners are of the same baby-boomer generation as me; those born during the final War years up until the very early-'50s (anyone born later doesn't really qualify). Most would appear to have had reasonable careers, and now, in retirement, are seeking to recreate what they saw as schoolboy 'spotters. Thus, they had a good job and now have a reasonable pension. They probably own their own homes, thus no mortgage and with their parasites departed (children) they fit into my generalisation - 'cash' rich, 'time' rich, 'space' rich, but 'skill' poor; the last-mentioned because 'life' got in the way of their modelling for 40-odd years!  They had train sets as boys (Tri-ang, for the poor, like me) up to Hornby-Dublo, Trix, or even Graham Farish (for the more-wealthy), but 'left' the hobby to pursue further education, careers - and woman! Those caught, ending up as wives. One has, of course, to factor-in future divorce, which then means being poor in every department! 

 

I call the questioners returnees to the hobby. Their latent interest has been re-awakened. They return to a positive RTR treasure-trove compared with the crudity they left behind all those years ago. However, the RTR on offering isn't comprehensive enough, hence the 'How much is that?' when they see a model I've made which is not built from a kit, and, more-importantly, is not available RTR. 

 

The 'skill' poor factor is because, unlike folk such as me, they haven't carried on modelling, thus missed out on developing those skills. The likes of schoolboy young Jamie on here are very rare, and, in my experience, the best models made are after one is 30 years old - just the time when the baby boomers were at their 'poorest'.

 

Could those who return learn the skills needed? Possibly, but, in my experience, no. Even some who've stayed in the hobby never could, and never will, largely because they put up too many 'barriers'. 

 

At least that generation is keeping the hobby going - hence the burgeoning RTR market, which is still mainly steam-outline. It also keeps professional model-makers going, which is a good thing. And, as long as those who've had their 'modelling' effectively done for them, always (and I mean always) credit what they've got to others, then there is no harm.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Agree with the above, about lost skills due to a break from the hobby. I am slowly regaining some of mine after returning a few years ago.
 

I’ve said it before though a related issue is the middle ground progression route has gone when wanting to move on from basic r-t-r. If it was available today I might have a go at your earlier mentioned A2? Wills kit on a modified Brit chassis build - no way would I attempt the brass kit equivalent with a chassis and valve gear you have to also build.  Whether it is hard or not is immaterial - it appears dauntingly so.

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18 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Generally skills aren't inherent and need to be learnt, developed and practiced to improve them. However, you need the will, desire and time to do that, and many throw up excuses as barriers to making any such effort. Even the lack of time gets used despite many of that target audience now being retired and potentially having more leisure time than before. But with this coronavirus lockdown there is currently even more home 'time' available and perhaps now is a great opportunity to have a go.

 

 

 

 

I’d add money to the list of requirements. Kit building takes a while to learn and one will make expensive mistakes along the way. 

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Tony,

 

That ‘Clear but cruel’ image you put up of my C12 reminds me of how poor my finishing was. 
 

984C6C92-C19D-47DF-8809-DBAD4F40B686.jpeg.89a2b0406926a9bc966f054053f19647.jpeg

 

I can’t believe that I hadn’t noticed the poor joint along the top of the cab front, but I hadn’t until I saw your photo (the first time) - my powers of observation are not the best!

 

I hope this shows that I’ve since sorted it out.

BB6A07EA-8B45-481B-A92A-9765607D1ADA.jpeg.06743e41f9c2725660dc3c8c1ff9922e.jpeg

 

I still need to sort out the black bleed into the smokebox door number plate though!

 

Andy

 

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37 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’d add money to the list of requirements. Kit building takes a while to learn and one will make expensive mistakes along the way. 

 

Money can be a factor but it is possible to mitigate much by starting with cheaper kits to practice on, develop skills and get proficient. And trying out techniques on inexpensive toys/models - for example painting and weathering can be undertaken on cheap second-hand subjects before risking an expensive kit. 

 

 

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My kitbuilding apprenticeship was a long one...

 

I left the hobby around 17, when a combination of interest in girls, beer, records, and my parents' divorce put an end to railway modelling. At the time I was becoming

aware of the Crownline conversion kits (thanks to articles in Model Trains) but I couldn't afford them. When I came back to the hobby in my early 30s, I had more income

but by then the Crownline kits weren't to be found so easily. I was also living in the Netherlands so only had intermittent access to model shops and exhibitions.

 

At one such show I chatted to the operator of a British layout that had been brought over to Holland and he encouraged me to have a go at building a loco, suggesting

an 0-6--0 tender loco as a good first step. Around 2000 or 2001 I ordered a DJH C2X from West Coast Kits. I put it together using the combined wisdom I'd picked up

from books by Tony, Iain Rice and Tim Shackleton. But I couldn't get it to work properly. It wasn't until I took it along to a Missenden weekend in 2006 that Tony

was able to help me sort it out, with a better set of pickups and some advice about gear meshing. Eventually (2007) I put in a new DJH gearbox and the running

was finally satisfactory. But that was at least a 6 or 7 year apprenticeship and I didn't feel right about starting another loco until I'd got the C2X running,

 

i suppose the apprenticeship would have been shorter if I'd had access to a  club, or knew someone with kitbuilding experience, but at the time I was very much

going it alone.

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

The 'skill' poor factor is because, unlike folk such as me, they haven't carried on modelling, thus missed out on developing those skills. The likes of schoolboy young Jamie on here are very rare, and, in my experience, the best models made are after one is 30 years old - just the time when the baby boomers were at their 'poorest'.

 

Tony. 

Perhaps I'm 'strange'? (it's been said before)

 

I've been married, had mortgages, children, been divorced, married again ... but never left the hobby in all that time and enjoy it now all the more.

 

And it is absolutely right that you need to 'serve your time', making bad models before you can hope to make a good one. Only time and patience will get you through that.

 

The afore-mentioned challenges of your 20s and 30s might mean little or no room for a layout but there's surely space for workbench activities at the very least to hone your skills? Even if it means nothing to those immediately around you!

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2 hours ago, grahame said:

But with this coronavirus lockdown there is currently even more home 'time' available and perhaps now is a great opportunity to have a go.

 

Interesting thought, but the exact opposite of what I'm experiencing. Whilst my commute to work is significantly shorter I'm finding there's less free time as my lovely family aren't out and about doing their normal activities, leaving me some piece and quiet in an evening. Being offered cups of tea and asking what I'm doing is all very nice but it's distracting me from modifying some Mk1s!

 

Steven B.

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18 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

The afore-mentioned challenges of your 20s and 30s might mean little or no room for a layout but there's surely space for workbench activities at the very least to hone your skills?

And operating club layouts.

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2 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Money can be a factor but it is possible to mitigate much by starting with cheaper kits to practice on, develop skills and get proficient. And trying out techniques on inexpensive toys/models - for example painting and weathering can be undertaken on cheap second-hand subjects before risking an expensive kit. 

 

 

You're right of course. But then you'd need even more time and the patience to build things you don't really need first. When I restarted kit building I was still working in a high pressure job and time was of the essence so I just ploughed in. I now have more time, but I'm still lacking on the patience front!

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2 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

My kitbuilding apprenticeship was a long one...

 

I left the hobby around 17, when a combination of interest in girls, beer, records, and my parents' divorce put an end to railway modelling. At the time I was becoming

aware of the Crownline conversion kits (thanks to articles in Model Trains) but I couldn't afford them. When I came back to the hobby in my early 30s, I had more income

but by then the Crownline kits weren't to be found so easily. I was also living in the Netherlands so only had intermittent access to model shops and exhibitions.

 

At one such show I chatted to the operator of a British layout that had been brought over to Holland and he encouraged me to have a go at building a loco, suggesting

an 0-6--0 tender loco as a good first step. Around 2000 or 2001 I ordered a DJH C2X from West Coast Kits. I put it together using the combined wisdom I'd picked up

from books by Tony, Iain Rice and Tim Shackleton. But I couldn't get it to work properly. It wasn't until I took it along to a Missenden weekend in 2006 that Tony

was able to help me sort it out, with a better set of pickups and some advice about gear meshing. Eventually (2007) I put in a new DJH gearbox and the running

was finally satisfactory. But that was at least a 6 or 7 year apprenticeship and I didn't feel right about starting another loco until I'd got the C2X running,

 

i suppose the apprenticeship would have been shorter if I'd had access to a  club, or knew someone with kitbuilding experience, but at the time I was very much

going it alone.

I agree, I read of building locos in magazines but lived abroad and did not know where to start as they said needed wheels and gear box plus motor to complete. I had no one to ask. It was only once back in the UK and able to join a club that I met people who could help. Yes I am too a student of the TW school of loco building. Still am as I go back for further training / help( by watching how TW solves the mess I have got myself into) 

without that, until the Internet forums I would have been lost.

richard 

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1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

The afore-mentioned challenges of your 20s and 30s might mean little or no room for a layout but there's surely space for workbench activities at the very least to hone your skills? Even if it means nothing to those immediately around you!

Actually I struggle even with that; the same problem that currently working from home creates.  Any "office" is temporary (build/dismantle daily) and so is a "workbench".  If my son does go off to Uni this autumn, I'm claiming squatters' rights to his desk.

My family has outgrown our house, but since our household income is still less than it was ten years ago.  A bigger house around here (big enough to justify the expense and upheaval of moving) is about £150k more than the one I'm currently living in, mortgage-free, but it's full, the garage is full, the loft is full.....

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

, but who'd use a Tri-ang chassis block, anyway? 

 

I j

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I suppose that would be someone who had one in a box, and thought he probably had the wheels, motor and enough spare valve gear etch to make a stab at using it. He could have spent £50 on a Comet chassis, I suppose, but a Brit is actually a bit of a luxury on a layout based on Tyneside.

I have recently resuscitated  an A2 and A2/3 using etched chassis, and am about 2/3rds through getting an old Wills A3 whitemetal chassis to run under my A1/1. Believe me, all this has tested, and hopefully improved, my modelling skills more than would have been achieved building a regular chassis kit. It has certainly tested my ingenuity, such as it is.

But I suspect the Triang Brit chassis is a step too far.

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

Interesting thought, but the exact opposite of what I'm experiencing. Whilst my commute to work is significantly shorter I'm finding there's less free time as my lovely family aren't out and about doing their normal activities, leaving me some piece and quiet in an evening. Being offered cups of tea and asking what I'm doing is all very nice but it's distracting me from modifying some Mk1s!

 

Steven B.

 

Sounds like you're getting the time . . . . but perhaps it's now a matter of managing those distractions, although being offered tea is a rather nice one. I have to make my own. ;-)

 

 

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1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

You're right of course. But then you'd need even more time and the patience to build things you don't really need first. When I restarted kit building I was still working in a high pressure job and time was of the essence so I just ploughed in. I now have more time, but I'm still lacking on the patience front!

 

Yep, patience can be a perennial problem.

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5 minutes ago, rowanj said:

 

But I suspect the Triang Brit chassis is a step too far.

 

The old Tri-ang Brit chassis had quite a short wheelbase for what it was meant to be. The subsequent tender drive Brit from the 80s

had a better wheel spacing but still not quite right, and the brake shoes were on the wrong sides of the wheels.

 

This is my Tri-ang era Brit on a Comet chassis, posted here already last year. A bit rough and ready but it's got a lot of personal

significance to me as my dad helped me take the plastic handrails off and give it a respray.

 

brit.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Actually I struggle even with that; the same problem that currently working from home creates.  Any "office" is temporary (build/dismantle daily) and so is a "workbench".  If my son does go off to Uni this autumn, I'm claiming squatters' rights to his desk.

My family has outgrown our house, but since our household income is still less than it was ten years ago.  A bigger house around here (big enough to justify the expense and upheaval of moving) is about £150k more than the one I'm currently living in, mortgage-free, but it's full, the garage is full, the loft is full.....

Our garage is full:

  • A faux leather swivel chair and footstool - not used in 6 years
  • A old dining table (in bits, Ikea) - not used in 6 years
  • A desk chair - not used in 2 years
  • A recently discarded writing desk - 2 days (never to be used again)
  • Old suitcases
  • Old cardboard boxes

You get the picture - we don't throw stuff away, I am about to put all the furniture onto a local site for people to collect so I can free up space.

 

I recently emptied my late father's flat out - what was actually personal stuff we wanted to keep was limited to a few items and pictures, the rest has ended up on the tip.

 

Sometimes we need to let go of stuff during our lifetime, because our 'treasure' and 'useful things' that we store but never ever look at or use are meaningless and junk to our children.

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Well the poor girl who came back to my bed sit full of.

 

Books. A big TV. A HiFi, lots of rubbish and lots of model stuff stayed around.

 

TV is now a lot bigger.

 

And been nearly 30 years.

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1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Our garage is full:

  • A faux leather swivel chair and footstool - not used in 6 years
  • A old dining table (in bits, Ikea) - not used in 6 years
  • A desk chair - not used in 2 years
  • A recently discarded writing desk - 2 days (never to be used again)
  • Old suitcases
  • Old cardboard boxes

You get the picture - we don't throw stuff away, I am about to put all the furniture onto a local site for people to collect so I can free up space.

 

I recently emptied my late father's flat out - what was actually personal stuff we wanted to keep was limited to a few items and pictures, the rest has ended up on the tip.

 

Sometimes we need to let go of stuff during our lifetime, because our 'treasure' and 'useful things' that we store but never ever look at or use are meaningless and junk to our children.

My garage

 

1/2 built railway for 20 years.

Huge piles of old magazines.

Lots of bikes.

Air compressor.

All the engine covers off the car.

A failed alternator, last battery, a starter motor, brand new front prop, 2 old vacuum cleaners.

 

Stuff falls out if I open the doors.

 

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1 minute ago, MJI said:

My garage

 

1/2 built railway for 20 years.

Huge piles of old magazines.

Lots of bikes.

Air compressor.

All the engine covers off the car.

A failed alternator, last battery, a starter motor, brand new front prop, 2 old vacuum cleaners.

 

Stuff falls out if I open the doors.

 

I forgot to mention, there is also a complete shed in ours - and a big one at that - came with us from the old house and wasn't required at the new because of the garage so it ended up in bits at the back of the garage waiting for a use......

 

Wife needs a home gym, the garage would be perfect if I could ditch all the rubbish.

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2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I forgot to mention, there is also a complete shed in ours - and a big one at that - came with us from the old house and wasn't required at the new because of the garage so it ended up in bits at the back of the garage waiting for a use......

 

Wife needs a home gym, the garage would be perfect if I could ditch all the rubbish.

 

When we moved in I put the shed in there.

 

Then we needed a shed in a hurry, so built a base in the garden and then treated the shed and brought it through in parts.

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1 hour ago, Barry Ten said:

 

The old Tri-ang Brit chassis had quite a short wheelbase for what it was meant to be. The subsequent tender drive Brit from the 80s

had a better wheel spacing but still not quite right, and the brake shoes were on the wrong sides of the wheels.

 

This is my Tri-ang era Brit on a Comet chassis, posted here already last year. A bit rough and ready but it's got a lot of personal

significance to me as my dad helped me take the plastic handrails off and give it a respray.

 

brit.JPG

 

Very glad you still have it, whatever its shortcomings. My own 70000 of similar vintage, a much-loved gift from my late mother, went west (along with everything model railway) in my deranged step-mother's purge of all that pre-dated her. Treasure your Brit;)

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I've been in the hobby virtually all my life and actively building things from about 15 or so. So it's close to 50 years. What my wife didn't realise was that when she married me I came with two baseboards as well as a number of locos etc

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