RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 13 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: HI Andy I planned to make Kings Cross, I hand drew the point work to 4mm scale (I am not sure that any points were standard). I discounted doing the overall roof as it would mean too much of the layout would be hidden. I was planning the layout and stock around the 1969 working timetable. I came to the conclusion that most of the layout would become fiddle yard, with all the up trains entering the station from the 3 eastern tracks of gas works tunnel and the down trains the other 3 the fiddle yard tracks so trains could cross from one side to the other would nearly be as complicated as the station throat. Plus a second smaller fiddle yard for the Moorgate trains. With limited space my mind changed to building Passenger Loco and the front of the suburban station. The plan was the trainspotters view from platform 10 to Passenger Loco watching the loco moves on, locos reversing out of the tunnel as if they had just come off the platforms and off shed going back into the tunnel before joining their train going northwards. Along with suburban trains going in and out, using a traverser for the fiddle yard . For the Moorgate trains it was planned a line would run behind the embankment behind Passenger Loco to a sector plate which would line up with Platform 16. Both ideas were halted, and the paper station throat disposed of when we moved here to the middle of nowhere. If you look at my Sheffield Exchange there are elements of the 1977 track plan so I didn't fully abandon my dream of having a model of Kings Cross. Clive, I'm well aware of the link between your Sheffield Exchange and KX. Of course you took the 'easy' option in modelling the 1977 layout with its (more) standard point work. I believe that the earlier layout is achievable using mainly Peco products. I drew up this plan of the throat using the Anyrail software and standard Peco points and I think it's a pretty good likeness - not one for the rivet counters but it is 'OO'! Some manipulation of points (in the Graham Nicholas way) would be necessary, but I had to do that on Gresley Jn so it doesn't phase me. Building my own points sounds a bit scary so I'd want to keep that to a minimum. I may have posted this on here before, but as it would be 1000ish pages back by now, I hope nobody minds me posting it again. I need to finish Gresley Jn. first, but I'm hoping work will start on this in a couple of years. I agree with you about the fiddle yard. Some sort of traverser may be necessary. But I'm also thinking about following your approach on Sheffield Exchange and having it feed a large loop - possibly in the garden - with the trains returning to KX directly. The main problem with this is that the carriage formations would be the wrong way round half the time! Andy 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Turbutt Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Hi Tony, Apologies if Scotland Street wasn't one of yours or WMRC's. It was certainly a long while ago - probably in late 70s or 80s. Anyway, here is a plan taken from Disused Railway Stations - hope I'm not infringing copyright. It would still make a good subject today. Plenty of shunting opportunities while trains run by on mainline. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUTLER2579 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Yes 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Keith, I don't remember Scotland Street being a WMRC layout; in fact, I can't place the layout at all, though it might have been a member's individual layout. Or, a visiting layout to the club's erstwhile shows. How long ago? What staggers me now is that I've not been a dweller in Wolverhampton for 16 years! In fact, where we live now is the longest we've ever stayed in one house. Regards, Tony. Yes, well we are very tolerant people in Lincolnshire and make allowances for our neighbours 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post APOLLO Posted July 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Tony Wright said: With the mention of main lines in cramped sites, I've been digging through some of my image, and found these two..................... I can't even remember when or where I took these. I can't even remember the layout's name (I can't make out the station nameboard), but it gives the air of a cramped, city centre terminus. Though I'm nor sure why, it reminds a little of the long-closed Liverpool Central. The trackwork is well-made, though those horrid couplings do obtrude. I don't think the signals worked, and as for safety rails! Does anyone know which layout this is? Sorry I don't recognise the layout - but the "Liverpool Central" look is there with the tracks disappearing into the tunnel with a girder portal at an angle. Liverpool Central (High level) would make a fantastic layout - not very long / wide either. Some interesting trains in its latter years. Back in September 1969 - June 1971 I attended Riversdale technical College in Aigburth Liverpool. Train Wigan to Liverpool Lime St & bus down to the tech. We found out that one train ran from the station near the college to Central at a convenient time around 4.30 pm to Central. The bus back to Liverpool was always crowded so we started to use this train (only a few per day back then, nothing for us outbound in the morning). An interesting line even back then with some sidings still in use as we passed the dock area (Herculaneum ?). The loco shed had gone by then. Central was well passed its best, still double tracked to the terminus (the centre line in the tunnel was disused / lifted). Only one platform was in use, and the place had not long to go, as in these photos. Anyone up to modelling this "era" ? - you only need one working point a two car DMU and some college students with long hair !! Brit15 Edited July 12, 2020 by APOLLO Duplicate photo removed 24 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffer Davies Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Hi Tony et al, As a still relatively recent convert to modelling the LNER and now having built several Ivatt locomotives, the one thing that still fills me with dread is bending the reverse curves on a smokebox wrapper. Can I ask you and others on this thread your approach to forming these? There must be an easier way than how I’m doing it with the shank of a drill bit held in a vice. Regards, Frank 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said: the shank of a drill bit held in a vice. Regards, Frank That's how I do it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said: Hi Tony, Apologies if Scotland Street wasn't one of yours or WMRC's. It was certainly a long while ago - probably in late 70s or 80s. Anyway, here is a plan taken from Disused Railway Stations - hope I'm not infringing copyright. It would still make a good subject today. Plenty of shunting opportunities while trains run by on mainline. "I am lucky enough to be the custodian of Scotland Street railway layout. It is a fantastic layout and, true to scale and detail. It was built by Dave Elbourne and completed in 1988 . Here is a photo of the model." Mark Gow, Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland: 14 +16 November 2016" http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_railways_dy_scotland_street_coal_yard.htm If memory serves me correctly, Dave was a member of the Leamington & Warwick club. I recall booking the layout for one of the Clay Cross MRS shows at the Alfreton Leisure Centre in the early 1990s. It was an excellent layout with the coal yard in the foreground with the main line at the back. Dave passed away sadly in 2017. Edited July 12, 2020 by Leander Edited to include layout photo. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 Well I am now pretty peed off. I was tidying my stock boxes (looking for PCB) and decided to run my BR 4MT as it was second box down (with some chocolate and cream mark 1s). I had a short length of track I was testing a High Level Lowrider on (for my GRCW 119 DMU). Suffice to say new chassis required. Bachmann 4MT 75069 the wheels are to be honest f**ked. Motor is still nice but the wheels - scrap. What should I do? Do any chassis kits allow me to keep the motor? What tools do I need? I have a built a successful motor bogie and three OKish 0-6-0 Diesel shunters 2 still under construction (friction fit wheels are a pain). 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 5 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said: Hi Tony et al, As a still relatively recent convert to modelling the LNER and now having built several Ivatt locomotives, the one thing that still fills me with dread is bending the reverse curves on a smokebox wrapper. Can I ask you and others on this thread your approach to forming these? There must be an easier way than how I’m doing it with the shank of a drill bit held in a vice. Regards, Frank Good afternoon Frank, How do you form the main radius of the wrapper? I use rolling bars.............. Once the main radius has been achieved, I form the reverse curves by putting the wrapper (turning it round) back in the bars for the length required. Finishing off is completed by round-nose pliers and finger pressure. I assume the wrapper is part of a kit? I align the wrapper and smokebox with cocktail sticks. And burnt fingers! Rolling bars are as essential as bending bars.................... Regards, Tony. 8 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 6 hours ago, APOLLO said: Sorry I don't recognise the layout - but the "Liverpool Central" look is there with the tracks disappearing into the tunnel with a girder portal at an angle. Liverpool Central (High level) would make a fantastic layout - not very long / wide either. Some interesting trains in its latter years. Back in September 1969 - June 1971 I attended Riversdale technical College in Aigburth Liverpool. Train Wigan to Liverpool Lime St & bus down to the tech. We found out that one train ran from the station near the college to Central at a convenient time around 4.30 pm to Central. The bus back to Liverpool was always crowded so we started to use this train (only a few per day back then, nothing for us outbound in the morning). An interesting line even back then with some sidings still in use as we passed the dock area (Herculaneum ?). The loco shed had gone by then. Central was well passed its best, still double tracked to the terminus (the centre line in the tunnel was disused / lifted). Only one platform was in use, and the place had not long to go, as in these photos. Anyone up to modelling this "era" ? - you only need one working point a two car DMU and some college students with long hair !! Brit15 What superb pictures, Thanks ever so much for showing us. Liverpool Central was always first port of call for our trainspotting trips from Chester to Liverpool. We'd change at Rock Ferry, then pick up the underground through Birkenhead Central, Hamilton Square, under the Mersey and then to Liverpool Central LL. The steps brought us up to the concourse of the CLC terminus, and it was always worth a look in. Then a walk past Lewis' department store, go by the Adelphi, turning left into Lime Street, thence staying at the main station for a few hours. The days would end with a quick nip across the square, thence to Tithebarn Street and Liverpool Exchange; home of those elusive Bank Hall Jubs. Regards, Tony. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 Liverpool Central - I would think it's almost enough to tempt @t-b-g from his Sheffield District scheme - compact terminus with, in its heyday, an intensive service including short portions of long-distance expresses, both Midland and GC/CLC, the latter with GE through coaches for several east coast destinations. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, MJI said: Well I am now pretty peed off. I was tidying my stock boxes (looking for PCB) and decided to run my BR 4MT as it was second box down (with some chocolate and cream mark 1s). I had a short length of track I was testing a High Level Lowrider on (for my GRCW 119 DMU). Suffice to say new chassis required. Bachmann 4MT 75069 the wheels are to be honest f**ked. Motor is still nice but the wheels - scrap. What should I do? Do any chassis kits allow me to keep the motor? What tools do I need? I have a built a successful motor bogie and three OKish 0-6-0 Diesel shunters 2 still under construction (friction fit wheels are a pain). 'Do any chassis kits allow me to keep the motor?' I doubt it, I'm afraid. From memory these split-chassis 4-6-0s came with two styles of motor; the earlier 'pancake' type, which was horrid. Later on, there was a kind of 'flywheel' motor, which was much better. I've not heard of either being used in an etched chassis. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERandBR Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Liverpool Central certainly looks interesting. I found the page on Disused Stations for it: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_central_hl/ A few more photos on there and a map with the basic track plan. You can't see it in any of the photos but looks like there was a turntable there too. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 I was just looking at the early 20th century OS 25" map on the National Library of Scotland website. The open-air section is no more than 300 ft long and does indeed include a turntable. The layout only becomes wide under the overall roof - the station did have six platforms - so there's scope for compression and simplification while retaining the character. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffer Davies Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 32 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Good afternoon Frank, How do you form the main radius of the wrapper? I use rolling bars.............. Once the main radius has been achieved, I form the reverse curves by putting the wrapper (turning it round) back in the bars for the length required. Finishing off is completed by round-nose pliers and finger pressure. I assume the wrapper is part of a kit? Regards, Tony. Hi Tony, I still use a half inch diameter brass rod and a slice of mouse mat to roll the main curves of the smokebox and boiler, I have cut the mouse mat into various widths because the wider the strip the more effort it takes to press the brass rod sufficiently to curve the brass to the required diameter. I quite enjoy this part of the build, it is far easier in practice than many perceive it to be. But that reverse curve is a pain. Perhaps if I had a pair of parallel jawed round nosed pliers then that might be the answer. I’ll try and track some down. Thanks to Paul and yourself for your help. Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: 'Do any chassis kits allow me to keep the motor?' I doubt it, I'm afraid. From memory these split-chassis 4-6-0s came with two styles of motor; the earlier 'pancake' type, which was horrid. Later on, there was a kind of 'flywheel' motor, which was much better. I've not heard of either being used in an etched chassis. Regards, Tony. Flywheel motor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Credit where credit is due - the Liverpool Central photos are from an earlier rmweb thread here. More info re turntable and signalbox diag etc on this thread -- And here Liverpool Central - a modelable terminus what's not to like ? Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said: Hi Tony et al, As a still relatively recent convert to modelling the LNER and now having built several Ivatt locomotives, the one thing that still fills me with dread is bending the reverse curves on a smokebox wrapper. Can I ask you and others on this thread your approach to forming these? There must be an easier way than how I’m doing it with the shank of a drill bit held in a vice. Regards, Frank Hi Frank. Have you tried these little fellows... The largest size there is 9mm and the cylinders are 32mm. I don't know whether you can get bigger sizes. I have 3 in different sizes. I've not had them long but they've proved a really good investment. Clem 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: Liverpool Central - I would think it's almost enough to tempt @t-b-g from his Sheffield District scheme - compact terminus with, in its heyday, an intensive service including short portions of long-distance expresses, both Midland and GC/CLC, the latter with GE through coaches for several east coast destinations. I have looked once or twice at Cheshire Lines themed layouts but I don't want to wander too far from my beloved LD&ECR. I know they planned to get to Warrington but I haven't exhausted all the potential of the East Midlands/Yorkshire area just yet. Edited July 12, 2020 by t-b-g Autocorrect changed wander to wonder 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Manxcat Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2020 On 11/07/2020 at 19:00, Tony Wright said: Tony, The three coaches in the above picture look very interesting. What are they please? Thanks, Archie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said: Perhaps if I had a pair of parallel jawed round nosed pliers then that might be the answer. I’ll try and track some down. 1 hour ago, Clem said: Hi Frank. Have you tried these little fellows... The largest size there is 9mm and the cylinders are 32mm. I don't know whether you can get bigger sizes. I have 3 in different sizes. I've not had them long but they've proved a really good investment. Clem There's also these, which are parallel action pliers: https://www.maunindustries.com/round-nose-plier-1/ https://www.maunindustries.com/round-nose-plier-3/ Here's a link for the type Clem mentions: https://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/-Range=Pliers,_Cutters_and_Shears/-Size=0/-Type=0/-Brand=Wubbers/-Font=0/&prdsearch=y&show=N Edit: There are endless options available on ebay also, e.g.: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JEWELRY-WRAP-TAP-PLIERS-RING-FORMING-BAIL-MAKING-WIRE-LOOPING-MEN-RING-SIZE/251631671105?hash=item3a966a9741:g:4xsAAOSwHnFVla-A HTH Brian Edited July 12, 2020 by polybear 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PJT Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 3 hours ago, MJI said: Motor is still nice but the wheels - scrap. What should I do? It depends on what's wrong with the wheels. At a guess, if you're saying the wheels are scrap, what you mean is the wheel centres have expanded to the point where they foul the coupling rods, either making your 4MT limp like a lame duck or jamming movement altogether. That's far and away the most common fault with the 4MT split chassis. The second most common fault is split plastic 'muffs' in the centres of the axles, but since you're not complaining about wheels going out of quartering and you're saying the wheels themselves are scrap, I suspect you've got expanded wheel centres. There's an easy fix for expanded wheel centres; when I say 'easy', it honestly isn't hard to do (it's a lot easier than any of the other Bachmann split chassis problems). If you do a search on RMweb for Bachmann BR Class 4 Woes you'll find one of the many threads on here (just happens to be one I contributed to, so I knew what thread title to look for) that details how to deal with Bachmann split chassis expanded wheel centres. If you read it from the top, you'll do ok. Half way down the thread is guidance on releasing the coupling rods from the crank pins on the centre drivers - that's important to follow. Good luck! If your problem isn't expanded wheel centres, I'd be happy for you to PM me and we'll try to sort out what the problem is and decide whether it's curable or not. Pete T. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 41 minutes ago, Manxcat said: Tony, The three coaches in the above picture look very interesting. What are they please? Thanks, Archie Good evening Archie, The first two (I think) are old BSL kits and the third one is a Lawrence/Goddard vehicle. I don't actually know the diagrams (perhaps someone with a knowledge of LMS carriages will tell us, please). They all have an interesting history. One day, Baz Oliver brought along several file cases full of ex-LMS carriages in various states of 'disrepair'. I think he'd acquired them off ebay for a client or was examining them on behalf of the client who'd acquired them. There were several BSL-built carriages in the collection, but none had any bogies. Some had suffered damage, though they appeared to be generally well-made and well-painted (by whom is not known). I was offered several at a very good price, which I accepted. I then built Comet bogies for them or acquired Bachmann or Hornby ones, changing the wheels. Any damage was made good (underframes repaired/patch repainting, etc.,), and they've run on the MR/M&GNR bit ever since. The Lawrence/Goddard car was one of about a score which Baz also had brought along. Several of these had suffered considerable damage - windows pushed in, some covered in scratches/dents and a fair bit of paint knocked off. 'Can you do anything with these?' I think I was asked. I repaired as many as I could (15 or so) and they were personally returned to their owner, who was delighted. I discussed with Baz that some were really beyond practicable repair (the owner insists on the highest standards!), so I took them on, patching them up as well as I could. At least two have to be run round one way, because windows on one side were pushed in and my only chance of repair was 'external', using 'Glue 'n' Glaze'. I can live with that, because I don't know how to get inside Larry Goddard carriages. The 'undamaged' sides face south when they run. In the event, I was effectively given the too-damaged carriages in exchange for the ones I'd repaired, but I insisted on paying something. Others had dented roofs, which I repaired with filler and repainted. Body scratches were filled as best I could and paint-matched also as best as I could. The repairs do show, but the carriages were really too good to scrap. I have to say, I really don't notice now, and since any visitors only see the 'good' sides, they're none the wiser. Anyway, the late Ray Earl only ever lettered/numbered his stock on one side on his EM layouts; the side which faced the public. Have I got the above about right, Baz? The memory fades................. Regards, Tony. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted July 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, PJT said: There's an easy fix for expanded wheel centres; when I say 'easy', it honestly isn't hard to do (it's a lot easier than any of the other Bachmann split chassis problems). If you do a search on RMweb for Bachmann BR Class 4 Woes you'll find one of the many threads on here (just happens to be one I contributed to, so I knew what thread title to look for) that details how to deal with Bachmann split chassis expanded wheel centres. If you read it from the top, you'll do ok. Half way down the thread is guidance on releasing the coupling rods from the crank pins on the centre drivers - that's important to follow. I'd never heard of this before (though I did know about the wheel muffs) so I've learnt something new today Here's a useful link: HTH Brian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff west Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Good evening Archie, The first two (I think) are old BSL kits and the third one is a Lawrence/Goddard vehicle. I don't actually know the diagrams (perhaps someone with a knowledge of LMS carriages will tell us, please). They all have an interesting history. One day, Baz Oliver brought along several file cases full of ex-LMS carriages in various states of 'disrepair'. I think he'd acquired them off ebay for a client or was examining them on behalf of the client who'd acquired them. There were several BSL-built carriages in the collection, but none had any bogies. Some had suffered damage, though they appeared to be generally well-made and well-painted (by whom is not known). I was offered several at a very good price, which I accepted. I then built Comet bogies for them or acquired Bachmann or Hornby ones, changing the wheels. Any damage was made good (underframes repaired/patch repainting, etc.,), and they've run on the MR/M&GNR bit ever since. The Lawrence/Goddard car was one of about a score which Baz also had brought along. Several of these had suffered considerable damage - windows pushed in, some covered in scratches/dents and a fair bit of paint knocked off. 'Can you do anything with these?' I think I was asked. I repaired as many as I could (15 or so) and they were personally returned to their owner, who was delighted. I discussed with Baz that some were really beyond practicable repair (the owner insists on the highest standards!), so I took them on, patching them up as well as I could. At least two have to be run round one way, because windows on one side were pushed in and my only chance of repair was 'external', using 'Glue 'n' Glaze'. I can live with that, because I don't know how to get inside Larry Goddard carriages. The 'undamaged' sides face south when they run. In the event, I was effectively given the too-damaged carriages in exchange for the ones I'd repaired, but I insisted on paying something. Others had dented roofs, which I repaired with filler and repainted. Body scratches were filled as best I could and paint-matched also as best as I could. The repairs do show, but the carriages were really too good to scrap. I have to say, I really don't notice now, and since any visitors only see the 'good' sides, they're none the wiser. Anyway, the late Ray Earl only ever lettered/numbered his stock on one side on his EM layouts; the side which faced the public. Have I got the above about right, Baz? The memory fades................. Regards, Tony. Good evening Tony, I'm pretty sure I had a couple of those coaches, as I was there when Baz turned up. That was the first time I met Baz. Of course I could have it completely wrong. Regards, Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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