Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think you're right Tony, in that Charwelton was never as successful a layout as Stoke Summit.

Tony W and I have discussed this before but for me Charwelton was less successful because it didn't make enough use of what the station had to offer, especially as far as the ironstone branch was concerned.

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I'm afraid I didn't recognise a single passenger train on Charwelton.

 

 

I seem to recall it was a Bulleid set with a MK1 Kitchen Buffet car, neither being right for the York Bournemouth. The real train had special cross country catering cars, as equally fascinating as the Gresley triplets on the East coast mainline.

'I'm afraid I didn't recognise a single passenger train on Charwelton.'

 

Not even the five-coach semi-fast made up of BR Mk.1s hauled by 30925, based on a photograph of the loco and set at East Leake? 

 

Or the special hauled by 46251 which was made-up of ex-LMS cars (again, based on a prototype picture)? 

 

I assume the green rake was the York-Bournemouth, though we did use prototype pictures which showed other SR sets. 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

To me, after the transfer to the LMR, ER locos became a rarity. I think that was what didn't ring true. It should have been either in ER days with the odd LMS loco appearing or in LMR days with the odd ER loco appearing. I recall seeing Peppercorn Pacifics on the layout too but I don't recall them being regular performers in real life.

 

Still, it matters little now and none of the locos on the layout were a patch on the Atlantics and other GCR types of 40 and 50 years previous to the period of the layout!

I'm inclined to agree, Tony, 

 

Though Charwelton was much more the product of 'democracy' than Stoke Summit. In the same way that Little Bytham isn't democratic either. 

 

The pair of Peppercorn Pacifics seen on Charwelton (60114 and 60125) were based on protototype pictures, as were the B16s. 

 

None of the earlier prototype locos you mention was a patch on the A1s!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

Funnily enough I’d been thinking about the GCR today (for no particular reason). Most definitely the transfer from ER to LMR was the death knell for the route, although for the spotter the change in motive power must have been intriguing!

 

Did the region change coincide with the A3s moving out from Leicester, or did this happen earlier?

 Off the top of my head, Tom,

 

The A3s left the GC a year before the regional changes.

 

Certainly when 'spotting on Donny Station in the summer of 1958, I saw both 60102 and 60111 on ECML expresses. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clem]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

To me, after the transfer to the LMR, ER locos became a rarity. I think that was what didn't ring true. It should have been either in ER days with the odd LMS loco appearing or in LMR days with the odd ER loco appearing. I recall seeing Peppercorn Pacifics on the layout too but I don't recall them being regular performers in real life.

Living by the GC at the time of transition, I would say that the line still had very much an ER feel to it up to the end of 1961 (getting on for 3 years after the regional transfer) after which the scots,Brits appeared and the Black 5s became more frequently used.

[Clem]

7 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

Funnily enough I’d been thinking about the GCR today (for no particular reason). Most definitely the transfer from ER to LMR was the death knell for the route, although for the spotter the change in motive power must have been intriguing!

 

Yes it was, Hawin. It got to stage where you felt you could see almost anything on the line and it wouldn't surprise you.

 

A little story. We'd often go up to Wilford Brick works to watch the GC, on the bikes. After I passed the 11+ exam, my dad bought me a new bike as a reward. It was pretty custom for those days in that it had 10 campgnolo gears as opposed to the usual Sturmy Archer for the bike model. It was a Raleigh Palm Beach and I abolutely loved it. After having it 3 weeks, I went up to Wilford with a couple of train mates. Quite a lot of spotters would gather there. I parked the bike up and got so intrigued with the line that I didn't notice the bike being stolen behind me. I never saw it again. I'm still grief stricken when I think about it. It was the summer of 1962. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Clem

[dibateg]

I based my passenger sets for Charwelton from the carriage working book ( late 50's I think ) and photos, we had some good time with that layout. It's difficult to do the London extension in 7mm, unless you have a very long railway room. So my railway project is based on the GN Derby line in the suburbs, compromised and compressed of course, but I hope it will capture the atmosphere. The main thing is I get to run all my favourite types of locos from Annesley and Colwick.

 

Great to see so much GC content on your thread Tony!

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

[Headstock]

46 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'I'm afraid I didn't recognise a single passenger train on Charwelton.'

 

Not even the five-coach semi-fast made up of BR Mk.1s hauled by 30925, based on a photograph of the loco and set at East Leake? 

 

Or the special hauled by 46251 which was made-up of ex-LMS cars (again, based on a prototype picture)? 

 

I assume the green rake was the York-Bournemouth, though we did use prototype pictures which showed other SR sets. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

No, when a locomotive appeared with the Master Cutler headboard and a hotch potch formation that including tourist stock, I walked away. 

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

No, when a locomotive appeared with the Master Cutler headboard and a hotch potch formation that including tourist stock, I walked away. 

With respect,

 

I think you're confusing the ex-'Coronation' twin FOs in the MC with tourist stock. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

5 minutes ago, dibateg said:

I based my passenger sets for Charwelton from the carriage working book ( late 50's I think ) and photos, we had some good time with that layout. It's difficult to do the London extension in 7mm, unless you have a very long railway room. So my railway project is based on the GN Derby line in the suburbs, compromised and compressed of course, but I hope it will capture the atmosphere. The main thing is I get to run all my favourite types of locos from Annesley and Colwick.

 

Great to see so much GC content on your thread Tony!

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

Thanks Tony,

 

I did the same. 

 

Don't folk expect the highest standards of accuracy?

 

 

This was Dave Lewis' rendition of an inter-regional train, which (I assumed) was reasonably accurate.

 

 

This Manchester-Marylebone express was based on a prototype picture. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Headstock]

41 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 Off the top of my head, Tom,

 

The A3s left the GC a year before the regional changes.

 

Certainly when 'spotting on Donny Station in the summer of 1958, I saw both 60102 and 60111 on ECML expresses. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Both the A3's and the name Master Cutler were removed from the line as a direct result of the take over of the MR, I've read the minutes.

 

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

With respect,

 

I think you're confusing the ex-'Coronation' twin FOs in the MC with tourist stock. 

 

 

 

With the greatest of respect back at you, it had a tourist stock open brake third behind the locomotive, I'm sure the first class passengers would have not been amused!

[Tony Wright]

Just now, Headstock said:

 

Both the A3's and the name Master Cutler were removed from the line as a direct result of the take over of the MR, I've read the minutes.

 

 

With the greatest of respect back at you, it had a tourist stock open brake third behind the locomotive, I'm sure the first class passengers would have not been amused!

All I can say is that I'd not built a Tourist Brake Third in Charwelton's days. And, never put one in the MC. 

 

You must have been mistaken.

[Headstock]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

All I can say is that I'd not built a Tourist Brake Third in Charwelton's days. And, never put one in the MC. 

 

You must have been mistaken.

 

Morning Tony,

 

I must be wrong, if you built it, do you have a picture. What service is the green train, it doesn't have a set number on the end. They look to be BRCW Bulleids, Mike King informed me that these carriages retained their Malachite green throughout their lives, due to the paint job being so good, I would like to know more about this set as they seem to be finished in BR green. I would also be very interested in seeing the prototype photo for the Manchester express, it is a rather unusual brake to be on those workings.

[Tony Wright]

Going back to the ghastly transgressions from prototype train formations on Charwelton..............

 

If completely incorrect cars appeared in the MC, then I can only assume it was on an occasion when Charweleton was exhibited and I was not present (because I made the train). 

 

The usual form was that whoever had made a train, put it on. Thus, if someone were absent (in my case, chronic illness), then that person's train(s) was/were put on by anyone else - right at the end. That being the case, it might well have been a case of make sure there's something running (though where a Tourist BTO came from, I have no idea).

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tony,

 

I must be wrong, if you built it, do you have a picture. What service is the green train, it doesn't have a set number on the end. They look to be BRCW Bulleids, Mike King informed me that these carriages retained their Malachite green throughout their lives, due to the paint job being so good, I would like to know more about this set as they seem to be finished in BR green. I would also be very interested in seeing the prototype photo for the Manchester express, it is a rather unusual brake to be on those workings.

Good morning Andrew,

 

The SR set was built by Dave Lewis from his own Southern Pride kits.

 

As for the prototype picture I used, it's a case of not knowing now in which book it appeared (I have thousands!). It might have been a substitute, I don't know. However substitutes were very common. Not always do I find prototype pictures which exactly match the carriage working books. In that respect, I'm more inclined to model a train from an actual prototype picture, rather than based on just the 'official' documents.

 

Returning to Charwelton, though I can't find the prototype pictures right now (they must be in my old computer), we used several taken at Charwelton to make up the trains. However, these must have been taken on a summer Saturday, such was the variety - stock from all regions, including much pre-BR, and locos including Black Fives, B1s, BR Standard Fives, a Hall, a V2 and a B16/3. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

I enjoyed watching Charwelton and wish I had seen more of it. It must have been a long time ago now and I certainly knew less about GC trains than I do now. I do recall thinking the green Mark I RKB was out of place though - they were usually in Waterloo-West of England sets. Until the advent of Mark I catering cars, the Bournemouth-York usually had a rare Gresley restaurant car with gas cooking and four seating bays in the NER set and a Maunsell kitchen buffet rebuild of a restaurant first and an accompanying open for dining in the SR set. Bulleid stock did appear in the set, but not generally the BRCW ones with the shallower windows. 

 

There are I think four Bulleids in this set and a Maunsell catering car - the engine might be 61178 rather than 61179:

61179_BulwellCommon_1959 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

[SP Steve]

All this talk of the GCR brought this to mind:

 

 

 

I wonder what the men of 16B Colwick thought when this turned up - Merchant Navy No. 35030 "Elder-Dempster Lines" brought onto shed after running north from London Waterloo to Nottingham Victoria with the Great Central Railtour 3rd September 1966.

Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm inclined to agree, Tony, 

 

Though Charwelton was much more the product of 'democracy' than Stoke Summit. In the same way that Little Bytham isn't democratic either. 

 

The pair of Peppercorn Pacifics seen on Charwelton (60114 and 60125) were based on protototype pictures, as were the B16s. 

 

None of the earlier prototype locos you mention was a patch on the A1s!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Charwelton was a bad layout at all It was a very near miss for being one of the great exhibition layouts.

 

We have discussed the operation before, so I won't go over that again but if if the sidings and points had been used a bit more (at all) and the stock had been consistently fixed at a date rather than spread over 4 years when a huge change took place, it would probably have been one of my all time favourites.

 

I think it was Frank Dyer who wrote about recreating the typical rather than the exceptional if you want a convincing layout. Photographic evidence of a rarity like the Peppercorn locos doesn't really fit the bill. They were "lost" when they appeared there in real life and they looked "lost" on the layout. It is like saying that because a Hall (I think) got to Huddersfield once, a Hall is appropriate as regular motive power for a West Yorkshire themed layout.

 

If it had been set in 1907 and had achieved what Andy Gibbs tried to do with Whetstone (I only saw that once or twice, running not very well, before it got scrapped), a decent sized representation of the GCR main line in its pomp, it would almost certainly be my all time favourite exhibition layout. I don't think that was ever on the cards.

[Headstock]

11 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I enjoyed watching Charwelton and wish I had seen more of it. It must have been a long time ago now and I certainly knew less about GC trains than I do now. I do recall thinking the green Mark I RKB was out of place though - they were usually in Waterloo-West of England sets. Until the advent of Mark I catering cars, the Bournemouth-York usually had a rare Gresley restaurant car with gas cooking and four seating bays in the NER set and a Maunsell kitchen buffet rebuild of a restaurant first and an accompanying open for dining in the SR set. Bulleid stock did appear in the set, but not generally the BRCW ones with the shallower windows. 

 

There are I think four Bulleids in this set and a Maunsell catering car - the engine might be 61178 rather than 61179:

61179_BulwellCommon_1959 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

 

Morning Robert,

 

it looks like set 888, with attached lose Bulleids. When this started working the Bournemouth service in 1959, it was the first time the Southern set had been all green since the Maunsell set of the early fifties. The strengtheners outside the brake would indicate a Friday or Saturday service. The Gresley Restaurant car in the NE set was originally anthracite cooking and retained this for most of its career, it was built for cross country services due to the lack of charging points on other lines. The anthracite cooking was dirty and not too popular, one of the anthracite cars caught on fire. Conversion to gas was probably a good idea.

[dibateg]

I think the TO open brake was mine, I can't remember what set it was on, we we are going back over 15 years now, and we did what we could with the information that we had at the time. It might have been on one of the long distance semi fasts. As I say, most of the  sets were based on photos and the CWB, and also we did what we could with what was available then. The GC at the time did seem to have a habit of putting odd coaches in. I personally would have preferred the layout to be fixed in 1959, with no pacifics, but it was a group effort and we all had stock to contribute from our own diverse collections.  The layout never really fulfilled it's full potential with operating the sidings and developing the sequence, and stock. Yes - it could have become more 'accurate', but so could any layout I guess. Time moved on, as we did, on to other projects and away from the proximity of the club. Getting a team together for any show became almost impossible, I still think we put a reasonable show on with it when we did go out. At least the layout lives on ( not to my taste either ) and all that effort didn't end up on a bonfire. 

 

I too, prefer the everyday, mundane, although I've rather shot myself in the foot by having three locos with names! Maybe I can balance that off with 7 grubby 2-8-0s. If I'd stayed on in 4mm, I'd have built something based on Bulwell Common. That would have gone nicely in the space I have now. One of the reasons that I moved to 7mm, is the more realistic appearance of the loco's, I found the narrowness of 16.5 track and the chunky wheels difficult to live with. Like Tony - if I was starting out again, I'd have done it all in EM....

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

[t-b-g]

15 minutes ago, dibateg said:

I think the TO open brake was mine, I can't remember what set it was on, we we are going back over 15 years now, and we did what we could with the information that we had at the time. It might have been on one of the long distance semi fasts. As I say, most of the  sets were based on photos and the CWB, and also we did what we could with what was available then. The GC at the time did seem to have a habit of putting odd coaches in. I personally would have preferred the layout to be fixed in 1959, with no pacifics, but it was a group effort and we all had stock to contribute from our own diverse collections.  The layout never really fulfilled it's full potential with operating the sidings and developing the sequence, and stock. Yes - it could have become more 'accurate', but so could any layout I guess. Time moved on, as we did, on to other projects and away from the proximity of the club. Getting a team together for any show became almost impossible, I still think we put a reasonable show on with it when we did go out. At least the layout lives on ( not to my taste either ) and all that effort didn't end up on a bonfire. 

 

I too, prefer the everyday, mundane, although I've rather shot myself in the foot by having three locos with names! Maybe I can balance that off with 7 grubby 2-8-0s. If I'd stayed on in 4mm, I'd have built something based on Bulwell Common. That would have gone nicely in the space I have now. One of the reasons that I moved to 7mm, is the more realistic appearance of the loco's, I found the narrowness of 16.5 track and the chunky wheels difficult to live with. Like Tony - if I was starting out again, I'd have done it all in EM....

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

 

Your new project is coming on very nicely Tony and is right in my area of interest. I can happily accept the BR period when the locos and stock are up to your standard. I don't know if it was a place my dad visited in the 50s but it was right on his "patch", which is where I get my interest in the area from.

 

Hopefully one day I can turn up with a few GCR period examples and give them a run.

 

It is sobering just to think how long ago Charwelton the layout was built and as you say, we have all moved in in years, experience and hopefully in wisdom!

[Headstock]

16 minutes ago, dibateg said:

I think the TO open brake was mine, I can't remember what set it was on, we we are going back over 15 years now, and we did what we could with the information that we had at the time. It might have been on one of the long distance semi fasts. As I say, most of the  sets were based on photos and the CWB, and also we did what we could with what was available then. The GC at the time did seem to have a habit of putting odd coaches in. I personally would have preferred the layout to be fixed in 1959, with no pacifics, but it was a group effort and we all had stock to contribute from our own diverse collections.  The layout never really fulfilled it's full potential with operating the sidings and developing the sequence, and stock. Yes - it could have become more 'accurate', but so could any layout I guess. Time moved on, as we did, on to other projects and away from the proximity of the club. Getting a team together for any show became almost impossible, I still think we put a reasonable show on with it when we did go out. At least the layout lives on ( not to my taste either ) and all that effort didn't end up on a bonfire. 

 

I too, prefer the everyday, mundane, although I've rather shot myself in the foot by having three locos with names! Maybe I can balance that off with 7 grubby 2-8-0s. If I'd stayed on in 4mm, I'd have built something based on Bulwell Common. That would have gone nicely in the space I have now. One of the reasons that I moved to 7mm, is the more realistic appearance of the loco's, I found the narrowness of 16.5 track and the chunky wheels difficult to live with. Like Tony - if I was starting out again, I'd have done it all in EM....

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

It's the curse of the Great Central I'm afraid. Due to this Covid thing, it is quite possible that LSGC will never be exhibited again and end up as firewood. All that I'm currently building will quite possibly never run. I shall keep building anyway, just to finish off and why not, I enjoy it. Perhaps a South of Leicester South GC may rise again someday.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

if the sidings and points had been used a bit more (at all)

 

24 minutes ago, dibateg said:

The layout never really fulfilled it's full potential with operating the sidings

A shame but perhaps that's the curse of many a club layout (too many?).

[thegreenhowards]

23 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

It's the curse of the Great Central I'm afraid. Due to this Covid thing, it is quite possible that LSGC will never be exhibited again and end up as firewood. All that I'm currently building will quite possibly never run. I shall keep building anyway, just to finish off and why not, I enjoy it. Perhaps a South of Leicester South GC may rise again someday.

Andrew,

 

It would be a tragedy if LSGC were never exhibited again.  Surely when exhibitions start again there will be a market for layouts like that.

 

Andy

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Robert,

 

it looks like set 888, with attached lose Bulleids. When this started working the Bournemouth service in 1959, it was the first time the Southern set had been all green since the Maunsell set of the early fifties. The strengtheners outside the brake would indicate a Friday or Saturday service. The Gresley Restaurant car in the NE set was originally anthracite cooking and retained this for most of its career, it was built for cross country services due to the lack of charging points on other lines. The anthracite cooking was dirty and not too popular, one of the anthracite cars caught on fire. Conversion to gas was probably a good idea.

SR set working north so it would be Monday, Wednesday or Friday. The leading extra is a short Gresley open second, formerly third.

 

What catches some people out is that, at least in some timetables, the Summer Saturday northbound regular service was worked by the NER set that had worked the Friday night relief to Bournemouth, with the regular NER set working north on the Saturday relief train.