Wright writes.....

[ScRSG]

To go back to the V2's for a moment, what was the conclusion regarding using drills on the 3D prints? Is it very slow with a hand held pin vice or very fast with, say, a Dremel type drill? 

 

Chas

[MikeTrice]

Depends on what you need to drill. For small sizes I would use a pin vice.

[Barry Ten]

52 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

 

 

 

That plan made so little sense as drawn that I started to wonder if it was meant to be 2mm - but even then I suspect it would be a stretch.

 

The book as a whole has some great inspiration in it, though.

[Headstock]

53 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Thanks, Andrew. Summer 1955 is one I don't have but I have lots of others covering the GC. My big gap is the final three timetables before the LMR took full control, ie Summer 1957, Winter 1957/8 and Summer 1958.  The GC London Extension is a fascinating line. My interest is undiminished from the day I first learned of the line and its demise by seeing a report on TV (Nationwide) in 1976, marking 10 years since closure as a through route. 

 

I have some photos in my collection too. They should all be in my GC album, which includes other GC lines and joint lines such as the CLC, GW&GC and Met&GC.

 

Some Neil Sprinks negatives have recently come onto the market and I have purchased some, including this 1952 shot of the Master Cutler, uploaded today:

 

60052_M-Cut_SeerGreen_7-6-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

It's the Saturday train, so no RFO.

 

Mention of O1s reminds me that I also have this image:

63619_Charwelton_7-51 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Also a 1948 shot of the South Yorkshireman - don't know who the photographer was - it came  from Transport Treasury:

E1299_South-Yorkshireman_c1948 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Good evening Robert,

 

you are indeed a modern philanthropist in regard to your collections, as well as a preserver of our history. It's worth quoting your post, just to repeat the gorgeous photographs of the most gorgeous of lines. Proof, if it was needed, that you don't need to model a station to model the GC, the stock is too nice to hide behind a platform in my opinion. People who get got by the GCR and it's London extension are the luckiest people in model railways, don't let on to anybody else though.

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

Yes indeed; practically any GC island platform station seems to be almost impossible to design (and Lord knows I've tried ...) in OO a satisfactory layout track plan for (real or fictional) in anything less than about a 16ft garage , i.e. one that allows sufficient space for all the pointwork for outside passing loops, crossover(s) and the entrance to a goods yard all having to be located beyond the ends of the platform; and yet still has sufficient platform space for something that actually plausibly "looks like" an express from later LNER or BR days to stop.  By which I would suggest that, whilst I know Tony reckons it won't look like an ECML express with anything less than a full dozen on, you could probably get something most modellers would say was looking reasonably 'representational' of a GCLE express in BR days with a selectively-compressed six or seven.

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

And yes, I know, I know - "why include a station at all?, or else "then model something else that you do have plausible space for instead".  To which I can only give you the "Mount Everest" response.  But in the end I am having no option to take such a course, though still with a GC flavour.  For many railway modellers tight for space yet for whom a micro-layout simply will not do, 'History' has to be something of an elastic concept!

 

 

The answer is easy, build it in 2mm!

 

Jerry

 

Edit to say I didn't see Barry Ten's response.

Edited July 13, 2020 by queensquare

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, Clem said:

That's really interesting Andrew. Yes 53 O1s were drafted to Annesley at the end of 1950 and from that time things changed. I believe they ran tests between the O2s, the O1s and the WDs and the O1s came out on top due to their superior braking.  I didn't see much of the GC before 1960 when we moved and by then the LMR rot had started to set in. One exception was an afternoon at Bagthorpe Junction in 1957 and I still have a vivid memory of Sir Frederick Banbury roaring by on an up express. By the time I became what I would term a professional trainspotter, it was April 58 and the A3s had gone. We'd catch the train from Radford station on the Midland Mansfield line to Nottingham Midland and park ourselves on Platform 5 just by the GC girder bridge to get the best of all worlds. Bliss... I miss those days. 

 

As always, I'm very impressed with your wide and comprehensive knowledge of the line and workings in your selected period. Something I've been meaning to ask (as I can never get enough research done to get things right) is where can you get hold of the CWNs for the 1950s? Did you go to York Museum Readers Library?

 

Evening Clem,

 

I forgot to mention, silly me. That's a fantastic memory regarding Fredy B. The locomotive was highly regarded by the engine men that I spoke to, with regard to its time on the GC.  It never seems to get the attention that other GC A3's, such as Scotsman, Palatine or Enterprise received.

[Clem]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

When the Stannier 8F came to Annesley in the 60s, they also struggled to match the performance of the O1's on the runners.

Yes I heard this too. The Annesley O1s were stored and most withdrawn in 1962 on orders from the LMR hierarchy in spite of the crews' preference for the O1s. I think a small number escaped to Staveley if I remember correctly. Along with the B1s, Thompson's most successful Loco, I think.

[Clem]

2 minutes ago, Headstock said:

It never seems to get the attention that other GC A3's, such as Scotsman, Palatine or Enterprise received.

It was always a favourite of mine, as well! 

[Willie Whizz]

Trivial I know, but the name may have something to do with it.  'Frederick' was a perfectly normal and widespread monniker when the gentleman concerned was born, and still so when his career reached the pinnacle of having a major locomotive named after him.  But like a lot of other names from that period - and perhaps even more than most - somewhere along the way it turned into a snigger and a joke, so that nowadays it is almost impossible to take 'Fred' or 'Frederick' seriously.  Same with names like 'Aubrey' and 'Claude'.  Sad, but there it is ...

 

(WW - who apologises to any posters with those names, but knows that of which he speaks; as my grandfather was one 'Frederick Percival Gloyns', which was a source of endless amusement to my eight-year old self ...)

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

Yes indeed; practically any GC island platform station seems to be almost impossible to design (and Lord knows I've tried ...) in OO a satisfactory layout track plan for (real or fictional) in anything less than about a 16ft garage , i.e. one that allows sufficient space for all the pointwork for outside passing loops, crossover(s) and the entrance to a goods yard all having to be located beyond the ends of the platform; and yet still has sufficient platform space for something that actually plausibly "looks like" an express from later LNER or BR days to stop.  By which I would suggest that, whilst I know Tony reckons it won't look like an ECML express with anything less than a full dozen on, you could probably get something most modellers would say was looking reasonably 'representational' of a GCLE express in BR days with a selectively-compressed six or seven.

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

And yes, I know, I know - "why include a station at all?, or else "then model something else that you do have plausible space for instead".  To which I can only give you the "Mount Everest" response.  But in the end I am having no option to take such a course, though still with a GC flavour.  For many railway modellers tight for space yet for whom a micro-layout simply will not do, 'History' has to be something of an elastic concept!

 

Wolverhampton MRC built a model of Charwelton in almost three times the length suggested by Barry Norman.

 

And still the selective compression was enormous. 

 

 

 

 

Scale-length trains were run (though the expresses weren't as long as those on Stoke Summit). 

 

The distance from the station to Catesby Tunnel's south portal should have been over three times longer than we were able to accommodate - over 30' to scale. 

 

The layout now belongs to another group which runs blue diesels on it, even though the line was closed in 1966.

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

Thanks Tony.  Yes, I do remember seeing WMRC's Charwelton at an exhibition 'back in the day' - indeed, so far back that I can't actually recall what my reaction to it was, though I still have a couple of cut-out magazine articles from which the photos certainly looked good.

 

Saw the 'reincarnation' with blue diesels a couple of years back too.  Sadly it seemed curiously unconvincing; more so than you might have expected.  Maybe revival of old classics isn't always a great idea?

 

As regards the selective compression, one thing about most GCLE country stations that always impresses me from photos of their overall sites is how very 'spacious' they were.  For a supposedly cash-strapped company the GC certainly didn't stint on buying-up land, presumably to allow for the future expansion they were so sure of!

[Bucoops]

29 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Trivial I know, but the name may have something to do with it.  'Frederick' was a perfectly normal and widespread monniker when the gentleman concerned was born, and still so when his career reached the pinnacle of having a major locomotive named after him.  But like a lot of other names from that period - and perhaps even more than most - somewhere along the way it turned into a snigger and a joke, so that nowadays it is almost impossible to take 'Fred' or 'Frederick' seriously.  Same with names like 'Aubrey' and 'Claude'.  Sad, but there it is ...

 

(WW - who apologises to any posters with those names, but knows that of which he speaks; as my grandfather was one 'Frederick Percival Gloyns', which was a source of endless amusement to my eight-year old self ...)

 

There are two Aubreys at my daughters primary school (well, an Aubree and an Aubrey). Which made me wonder about the popularity of the name - it is having somewhat of a revival. It was in the top 25 girls names in 2018. I believe traditionally it's been a male name.

[t-b-g]

10 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Thanks Tony.  Yes, I do remember seeing WMRC's Charwelton at an exhibition 'back in the day' - indeed, so far back that I can't actually recall what my reaction to it was, though I still have a couple of cut-out magazine articles from which the photos certainly looked good.

 

Saw the 'reincarnation' with blue diesels a couple of years back too.  Sadly it seemed curiously unconvincing; more so than you might have expected.  Maybe revival of old classics isn't always a great idea?

 

As regards the selective compression, one thing about most GCLE country stations that always impresses me from photos of their overall sites is how very 'spacious' they were.  For a supposedly cash-strapped company the GC certainly didn't stint on buying-up land, presumably to allow for the future expansion they were so sure of!

 

My interest in the GCR has tended to stay well North of the London Extension. So many people think GCR and just think of the "branch" from Annesley to the capital. I wonder what percentage of GCR based models are from the London Extension. Probably 75% or more. 

 

The East to West route, the lines around Grimsby and Immingham and over in Manchester and beyond had a lot going for them but are seldom modelled. Likewise my favourite, the LD&ECR.

 

Running a GCR main line layout in BR Blue Diesel period becomes rather fictitious to me. Having a model of a real place but in a condition that it never ran in with stock that never appeared there is somehow just in the "not quite right" bracket. Mind you, I wasn't too convinced that the trains were entirely authentic when Charwelton was run as BR Steam.

 

I never did work out what date it was supposed to be and it often just seemed to be somewhere else to run the Stoke Summit stock as it looked more ECML than GCR. There seemed to be rather too many big expresses and hardly any of the secondary services that made up the vast bulk of the passenger services in the late 50s and some of the locos were types that may have appeared from time to time but were not regulars on the line. The line was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958 and yet I saw many locos from the ER with late crests, most of which would have not been there after the late crests were applied.

 

So it never quite worked for me as well as Stoke Summit did as an exhibition layout. I always saw trains that I would expect to see on that one! 

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Clem said:

It was always a favourite of mine, as well! 

 

Don't forget 60104 Solario, a 38C Leicester GC loco for a while, and the subject of a superb short article in Colin Walkers book Main Line Lament - The Newspaper train.  She was one of the first to be withdrawn in 1959. with a cracked frame I understand.

 

I'm afraid my sole personal GC / LNER recollections involve the branch line to Wigan Central, closed to passengers in 1964 when I was 12. Just ex LMS locos & some standards back then though Wigan GC J10's moved to Springs Branch for their final days in the early 60's - discussed many pages earlier on this thread (somewhere !!) - Wright Writes needs an index of its own such is the fast pace, number of (always) interesting subjects, and of course superb modelling.

 

Brit15

[Hollar]

2 hours ago, ScRSG said:

To go back to the V2's for a moment, what was the conclusion regarding using drills on the 3D prints? Is it very slow with a hand held pin vice or very fast with, say, a Dremel type drill? 

 

Chas

 

I took Tony's warning to heart, and when I needed to drill the ventilator holes on my pigeon van roof I started pin chucking very slowly and very small, working up to the right size in small increments.  Which worked ok. I experimented by using my Proxxon drill at the lowest speed for safety loop locations under the floor, and that was ok too.

 

I came a cropper, though when drilling handrail holes next to the window and losing a flake from the door pillar while inserting the wire.  It really is fracture-friendly, though easy enough to make an invisible mend.

 

Tone

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, ScRSG said:

To go back to the V2's for a moment, what was the conclusion regarding using drills on the 3D prints? Is it very slow with a hand held pin vice or very fast with, say, a Dremel type drill? 

 

Chas

What I did Chas was to drill all the holes as 'pilot' holes using a small bit in a pin vice. Any subsequent openings up were done with larger bits and/or broaches. 

 

Using a mini drill and a bit just resulted in my breaking the front buffer beam on one. In fairness, I tried to do it in one hit - small increments seem to be the way. 

 

That said, even with great care, the resin is brittle. For instance, when drilling for the top handrail pillar for the vertical handrail on a cabside of one, I didn't support the resin, and a piece just broke off. I repaired it easily with a dab of filler once the handrail was attached, but caution is definitely the watchword. 

 

Brittle or not, they're still the most-accurate V2 bodies I have.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

Mind you, I wasn't too convinced that the trains were entirely authentic when Charwelton was run as BR Steam.

 

 

I'm not saying nothink.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

My interest in the GCR has tended to stay well North of the London Extension. So many people think GCR and just think of the "branch" from Annesley to the capital. I wonder what percentage of GCR based models are from the London Extension. Probably 75% or more. 

 

The East to West route, the lines around Grimsby and Immingham and over in Manchester and beyond had a lot going for them but are seldom modelled. Likewise my favourite, the LD&ECR.

 

Running a GCR main line layout in BR Blue Diesel period becomes rather fictitious to me. Having a model of a real place but in a condition that it never ran in with stock that never appeared there is somehow just in the "not quite right" bracket. Mind you, I wasn't too convinced that the trains were entirely authentic when Charwelton was run as BR Steam.

 

I never did work out what date it was supposed to be and it often just seemed to be somewhere else to run the Stoke Summit stock as it looked more ECML than GCR. There seemed to be rather too many big expresses and hardly any of the secondary services that made up the vast bulk of the passenger services in the late 50s and some of the locos were types that may have appeared from time to time but were not regulars on the line. The line was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958 and yet I saw many locos from the ER with late crests, most of which would have not been there after the late crests were applied.

 

So it never quite worked for me as well as Stoke Summit did as an exhibition layout. I always saw trains that I would expect to see on that one! 

I think you're right Tony, in that Charwelton was never as successful a layout as Stoke Summit.

 

In its defence, most of the trains were correct, though there was a propensity for more big stuff. That said, very few of Stoke Summit's passenger trains ran on Charwelton; no Pullmans, no non-stops, no sets with triplet diners, etc. Though some of the carriages were used, they were never as they were in the Stoke sets. We even ran a green rake, representing the York-Bournemouth through train. 

 

Many ER locos with late crests ran through Charwelton as well, mainly those from York (actually NE Region), and there are plenty of pictures to prove that. 

 

The time period depicted was from 1957 (when the A3s were still in action) up to 1963/4, when the station closed, so several LMR types were used as well. Ex-GWR motive power was run as well, along with CHELTENHAM. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Clem said:

Yes I heard this too. The Annesley O1s were stored and most withdrawn in 1962 on orders from the LMR hierarchy in spite of the crews' preference for the O1s. I think a small number escaped to Staveley if I remember correctly. Along with the B1s, Thompson's most successful Loco, I think.

 

Evening Clem,

 

the thing is, the Annesley men thought they were getting a good deal, regarding the 8F as a more recent, more modern locomotive than the O4 rebuilds. They were rather disheartened to find out that as usual they had got the sticky end of the stick. This wasn't a bias against Midland stuff, they thought the Jubilees were fine locomotives.

[Tony Wright]

Now working in a medium I'm happier with.................

 

 

Progress on the MPD L&Y 0-6-0. 

 

The boiler is only held in place by friction, such is the good fit of the parts. 

 

I'm hampered by not having instructions (not that I'd read them!), but I think I can make it up as I go along. 

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

In its defence, most of the trains were correct, 

 

I'm afraid I didn't recognise a single passenger train on Charwelton.

 

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

We even ran a green rake, representing the York-Bournemouth through train. 

 

I seem to recall it was a Bulleid set with a MK1 Kitchen Buffet car, neither being right for the York Bournemouth. The real train had special cross country catering cars, as equally fascinating as the Gresley triplets on the East coast mainline.

[t-b-g]

20 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think you're right Tony, in that Charwelton was never as successful a layout as Stoke Summit.

 

In its defence, most of the trains were correct, though there was a propensity for more big stuff. That said, very few of Stoke Summit's passenger trains ran on Charwelton; no Pullmans, no non-stops, no sets with triplet diners, etc. Though some of the carriages were used, they were never as they were in the Stoke sets. We even ran a green rake, representing the York-Bournemouth through train. 

 

Many ER locos with late crests ran through Charwelton as well, mainly those from York (actually NE Region), and there are plenty of pictures to prove that. 

 

The time period depicted was from 1957 (when the A3s were still in action) up to 1963/4, when the station closed, so several LMR types were used as well. Ex-GWR motive power was run as well, along with CHELTENHAM. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

To me, after the transfer to the LMR, ER locos became a rarity. I think that was what didn't ring true. It should have been either in ER days with the odd LMS loco appearing or in LMR days with the odd ER loco appearing. I recall seeing Peppercorn Pacifics on the layout too but I don't recall them being regular performers in real life.

 

Still, it matters little now and none of the locos on the layout were a patch on the Atlantics and other GCR types of 40 and 50 years previous to the period of the layout!

[bbishop]

This may be heresy, but I preferred Charwelton to Stoke Summit!  Bill

[jrg1]

7 hours ago, Clem said:

That's really interesting Andrew. Yes 53 O1s were drafted to Annesley at the end of 1950 and from that time things changed. I believe they ran tests between the O2s, the O1s and the WDs and the O1s came out on top due to their superior braking.  I didn't see much of the GC before 1960 when we moved and by then the LMR rot had started to set in. One exception was an afternoon at Bagthorpe Junction in 1957 and I still have a vivid memory of Sir Frederick Banbury roaring by on an up express. By the time I became what I would term a professional trainspotter, it was April 58 and the A3s had gone. We'd catch the train from Radford station on the Midland Mansfield line to Nottingham Midland and park ourselves on Platform 5 just by the GC girder bridge to get the best of all worlds. Bliss... I miss those days. 

 

As always, I'm very impressed with your wide and comprehensive knowledge of the line and workings in your selected period. Something I've been meaning to ask (as I can never get enough research done to get things right) is where can you get hold of the CWNs for the 1950s? Did you go to York Museum Readers Library?

Yes-the GCR girder bridge, a redundant asset scrapped and then a replacement needed for the tram network.  Nottingham Midland was a fascinating place in steam days, and lost all it's charm and character with rationalisation.

[Tom F]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

To me, after the transfer to the LMR, ER locos became a rarity. I think that was what didn't ring true. It should have been either in ER days with the odd LMS loco appearing or in LMR days with the odd ER loco appearing. I recall seeing Peppercorn Pacifics on the layout too but I don't recall them being regular performers in real life.

 

Still, it matters little now and none of the locos on the layout were a patch on the Atlantics and other GCR types of 40 and 50 years previous to the period of the layout!

Funnily enough I’d been thinking about the GCR today (for no particular reason). Most definitely the transfer from ER to LMR was the death knell for the route, although for the spotter the change in motive power must have been intriguing!

 

Did the region change coincide with the A3s moving out from Leicester, or did this happen earlier?