Wright writes.....

[Northroader]

The plastic might expand and contract a bit more than wood, especially if your loft insulation isn’t that good. Then again, your track rails will do the same, so it might be better than wood in the long run?

[CUTLER2579]

The A3's left Neasden Shed before it came under the London Midland Region on the 1st January 1958.

The Last one there was 60108 which left on 27/01/1957

                                           60063 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60050 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60044  which left on 25/03/1956

                                           60111  which left on 27/03/1955

                                           60104 which left on 26/12/1954

                                           60052 which left on 05/12/1954

                                           60102 which left on 21/11/1954

                                           60051 which left  on 15/11/1953

                                           60061 which left on 13/03/1955

 

Obviously 15E Leicester had a large allocation of A3's and some of them may have outlasted "Gay Crusader" on the GC,but I am not sure.

                                          

Edited July 15, 2020 by CUTLER2579
Typo with date of 60108 Should be January not November

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

It doesn't just happen on club layouts. Much comes down to the preferences of those responsible for the layout. I divide people into those who like to run trains and those who like to operate. I would have Tony W and Roy Jackson firmly in the former camp. I am in the latter.

 

I see points and sidings and I want to see what they are there for and how they are worked. When I first saw the Retford layout, I imagined all sorts of movements that would be possible with all that track and pointwork but when the running sequence was arranged, there were around 100 movements and all but a handful were a train running round from the fiddle yard back to the fiddle yard. Operating it, I used to look ahead to see if there was something more interesting coming up and it would be many moves before something stopped or shunted. I got to the stage where I no longer enjoyed running it and usually declined the chance to get involved. I got roped in to work Babworth signal box on one running session. In 3 hours, I pulled a couple of signal levers and put them back a few times.

 

In the case of Retford, it was all done in the name of recreating what really happened there. There were long spells when the sidings were quiet and nothing happened other than trains running through. It may be authentic and accurate but for an operator, it was really dull.    

'I divide people into those who like to run trains and those who like to operate. I would have Tony W and Roy Jackson firmly in the former camp. I am in the latter.'

 

I couldn't agree more. 

 

I'd also add a caveat to your two distinctions. Those who build trains as well. You, me and Roy are (were) in the same camp with regard to that.

 

Returning (finally) to Charwelton, with over 50 trains to choose from in the operating sequence, why not have something more 'exotic' from time to time?

 

Halls were certainly common in Nottingham Vic' (it was a Grange which made it to Huddersfield, by the way, demolishing platform edges on its merry way!). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

You don't have to do one or the other. You can do both with a bit of imagination and organisation.

 

Out of Grantham and Shap, I much prefer Grantham because of the variety of movements. You have several locos all over the layout and as a viewer, you never quite know what or where the next movement will be. An express, then a loco change, then a van being attached.

 

I looked at Charwelton and could easily see how a train could draw up and reverse into the yard while an express thundered by in the other direction. Hardly "stopping everything".

 

The most fun I have operating a layout a shows has been with small shunting layouts, the best being Leighton Buzzard. The number of people who have watched for a whole run through the sequence of around an hour is most gratifying and I have known people come back and watch through it all again.

 

That wasn't just Denny fans either. It happened with families and youngsters who would never have heard of Buckingham. If you have a big gap, even a minute, between one move and the next, people will quickly drift away. If you are on the ball as an operator and you cut those gaps out, you can have a 15 second pause and people will stay and watch.

 

 

 

 

'I looked at Charwelton and could easily see how a train could draw up and reverse into the yard while an express thundered by in the other direction. Hardly "stopping everything".'

 

It wasn't always as simple as that, Tony. 

 

The problem arose when a train of iron ore empties arrived from the north. It would be drawn into the Up loop, the loco released to run round its train (blocking the Up main). Having run round, it would then draw its train back northwards, to then cross over both the Up fast and Down fast lines propelling the rake, effectively blocking everything for about three minutes. This is no lie, but spectators at the ends of the layout (35' long, or near to) complained that nothing was happening. Three minutes (and more) is a 'lifetime' in an exhibition layout's operating life. One chap told me in a very direct way 'You have all those (50+) trains in the fiddle yard, yet nothing is running!'.

 

What were we to do? Run everything at lightning speed? 

 

I'm sure there are spectators who adore tiny, shunting layouts (even those layouts which are made deliberately difficult to work), but they all bore the pants off me. No, a Pacific going full belt with 14 on; that's what I call a trainset!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Willie Whizz]

27 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

The A3's left Neasden Shed before it came under the London Midland Region on the 1st January 1958.

The Last one there was 60108 which left on 27/11/1957

                                           60063 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60050 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60044  which left on 25/03/1956

                                           60111  which left on 27/03/1955

                                           60104 which left on 26/12/1954

                                           60052 which left on 05/12/1954

                                           60102 which left on 21/11/1954

                                           60051 which left  on 15/11/1953

                                           60061 which left on 13/03/1955

 

Obviously 15E Leicester had a large allocation of A3's and some of them may have outlasted "Gay Crusader" on the GC,but I am not sure.

                                          

 

Indeed yes; I understand that there were still seven allocated to Leicester Shed at the beginning of 1957, and nearly all stayed until the Autumn; a little before the actual handover to the LMR, but presumably the ER had Notice - or at least could see the way the wind was blowing - and didn't want to see some of their 'favourite' engines abandoned to an uncaring successor.

 

What has always puzzled me is why Neasden lost almost all its allocation so early - consistently four or five in the early 1950s, but down to just a couple at best by 1956.  Was there perhaps a change in the working pattern of the expresses that meant they were no longer required there? 

[Theakerr]

A bit of a change in tone.   There is a lot of talk about having a go at building rolling stock and the 'benefits' of soldering versus gluing for construction although this conversation has perhaps been a bit one sided.   So when reading some old magazines I saw this advertisement from 1973 and saw the reference to 'kit bashing' and suggested construction techniques using 'one of the modern adhesives or solder ...' I thought I should post it. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, ROY@34F said:

Yes Tony , I agree it would be sometime in "58 . both 102 and 111 were Grantham engines at that time . You know what the nickname was for 111....Nelson , ( one eye , one arm , and one ar$ 'ole ) .

 

Regards , Roy .

Thanks Roy,

 

Great to meet you today (at two metres, of course), and thanks again for your help.

 

These pictures should help Jesse in building his Allington Junction project. 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Willie Whizz]

23 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

...

 

Mind you, I wasn't too convinced that the trains were entirely authentic when Charwelton was run as BR Steam.

 

I never did work out what date it was supposed to be and it often just seemed to be somewhere else to run the Stoke Summit stock as it looked more ECML than GCR. There seemed to be rather too many big expresses and hardly any of the secondary services that made up the vast bulk of the passenger services in the late 50s and some of the locos were types that may have appeared from time to time but were not regulars on the line. The line was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958 and yet I saw many locos from the ER with late crests, most of which would have not been there after the late crests were applied.

 

So it never quite worked for me as well as Stoke Summit did as an exhibition layout. I always saw trains that I would expect to see on that one! 

 

And yet, the wonderful Leicester South Goods appears to operate with a 'representative' selection of 'interesting' trains which are all, in themselves, apparently highly authentic and appropriate for their individual period and location; and yet they deliberately cover a wide time-frame from the late 1940s to the early 1960s.  And no-one ever seems to complain about that, or find it unconvincing that the display isn't pinned-down to a specific year.

 

Maybe that's just because we're explicitly told what is going-on (on the information boards and the handy little "spotter's leaflets") rather than just having to guess?

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

A bit of a change in tone.   There is a lot of talk about having a go at building rolling stock and the 'benefits' of soldering versus gluing for construction although this conversation has perhaps been a bit one sided.   So when reading some old magazines I saw this advertisement from 1973 and saw the reference to 'kit bashing' and suggested construction techniques using 'one of the modern adhesives or solder ...' I thought I should post it. 

 

The Glen you could "kitbash" into a Scott.

 

Later they released a proper kit for the Scott which is still available. Unlike the J36 which hasn't reappeared.

 

http://www.lytchettmanor.co.uk/lytchett-manor/oo-gauge-loco-kits

 

 

Jason

Edited July 14, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[Tony Wright]

One loco I'm building I probably won't ever see in operation is the MPD L&Y 0-6-0. 

 

This morning, and In between scrambling over bits of rural Lincs and Leics taking pictures this afternoon (getting scratched, stung and bitten by brambles, nettles and insects respectively), I've added some more to this delightful kit.......

 

 

Forming the smokebox wrapper was a doddle with the rolling bars! 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[CF MRC]

16 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

A bit of a change in tone.   There is a lot of talk about having a go at building rolling stock and the 'benefits' of soldering versus gluing for construction although this conversation has perhaps been a bit one sided.   So when reading some old magazines I saw this advertisement from 1973 and saw the reference to 'kit bashing' and suggested construction techniques using 'one of the modern adhesives or solder ...' I thought I should post it. 

The Krupps of North Wales, as Roy Dock used to describe it. 
 

Tim

[robertcwp]

6 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

And yet, the wonderful Leicester South Goods appears to operate with a 'representative' selection of 'interesting' trains which are all, in themselves, apparently highly authentic and appropriate for their individual period and location; and yet they deliberately cover a wide time-frame from the late 1940s to the early 1960s.  And no-one ever seems to complain about that, or find it unconvincing that the display isn't pinned-down to a specific year.

 

Maybe that's just because we're explicitly told what is going-on (on the information boards and the handy little "spotter's leaflets") rather than just having to guess?

I liked that aspect of Leicester South. Each train correct in its formation and motive power but the layout overall showing how the trains evolved from around nationalisation until c1960. From postings above, it seems I might have seen it in operation for the final time. I'm glad I made the trip to Shipley a couple of years ago for the show, in spite of Northern being on strike. 

[ROY@34F]

59 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

The A3's left Neasden Shed before it came under the London Midland Region on the 1st January 1958.

The Last one there was 60108 which left on 27/11/1957

                                           60063 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60050 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60044  which left on 25/03/1956

                                           60111  which left on 27/03/1955

                                           60104 which left on 26/12/1954

                                           60052 which left on 05/12/1954

                                           60102 which left on 21/11/1954

                                           60051 which left  on 15/11/1953

                                           60061 which left on 13/03/1955

 

Obviously 15E Leicester had a large allocation of A3's and some of them may have outlasted "Gay Crusader" on the GC,but I am not sure.

                                          

Thanks for that Derek . I hope you are keeping well .

On your list I'm sure 60050 , 60111 , 60102 , 60061 , and maybe 60108 came to Grantham . Am I correct do you think ? 

I started as a cleaner in August '57 and I remember all of those I'm sure . I also thought 60054 came from the GC. Is that correct do you think Derek ?

 

Regards , Roy .

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Quick point about (smallish) portable layout baseboards - why use wood ? A range of strong light plastic sections used for soffits on house roofs is available from DIY stores / specialist building suppliers.

 

I Use that material at work and it needs a lot of fixings to keep it in place. Even 20mm thick will sag over short lengths. 

[ROY@34F]

50 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Roy,

 

Great to meet you today (at two metres, of course), and thanks again for your help.

 

These pictures should help Jesse in building his Allington Junction project. 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony . It was super to see you and Mo . Pat and I

 

50 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Roy,

 

Great to meet you today (at two metres, of course), and thanks again for your help.

 

These pictures should help Jesse in building his Allington Junction project. 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony . It was super to see you and Mo too . Pat and I both enjoyed your visit , and I  thoroughly enjoyed our safari . These two photos are brilliant . Pity we couldn't quite conquer the tunnel mouth . I intend to have a walk over there again and may try going a bit further west to see if I can get view of it . I'm useless at photography but if I have any luck I'll be in touch .

 

Regards , Roy .

Edited July 14, 2020 by ROY@34F
Sorry for the false start. Don't know what happened .

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'I looked at Charwelton and could easily see how a train could draw up and reverse into the yard while an express thundered by in the other direction. Hardly "stopping everything".'

 

It wasn't always as simple as that, Tony. 

 

The problem arose when a train of iron ore empties arrived from the north. It would be drawn into the Up loop, the loco released to run round its train (blocking the Up main). Having run round, it would then draw its train back northwards, to then cross over both the Up fast and Down fast lines propelling the rake, effectively blocking everything for about three minutes. This is no lie, but spectators at the ends of the layout (35' long, or near to) complained that nothing was happening. Three minutes (and more) is a 'lifetime' in an exhibition layout's operating life. One chap told me in a very direct way 'You have all those (50+) trains in the fiddle yard, yet nothing is running!'.

 

What were we to do? Run everything at lightning speed? 

 

I'm sure there are spectators who adore tiny, shunting layouts (even those layouts which are made deliberately difficult to work), but they all bore the pants off me. No, a Pacific going full belt with 14 on; that's what I call a trainset!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I always thought that there was an opportunity for a goods train going North to stop, back into the yard to clear the line, shunt without blocking either main line then depart to the North again. All the time leaving the Southbound line clear.

 

Perhaps I have forgotten some aspect of the track plan that made that difficult.

 

It wouldn't have to do much, just drop of a brake van and pick up or drop off a wagon or two.

 

I find that one of the things that divides the operators from the runners of trains is that one looks for reasons to do interesting moves, the other looks for reasons to avoid them!

 

 

 

 

  

[t-b-g]

46 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

And yet, the wonderful Leicester South Goods appears to operate with a 'representative' selection of 'interesting' trains which are all, in themselves, apparently highly authentic and appropriate for their individual period and location; and yet they deliberately cover a wide time-frame from the late 1940s to the early 1960s.  And no-one ever seems to complain about that, or find it unconvincing that the display isn't pinned-down to a specific year.

 

Maybe that's just because we're explicitly told what is going-on (on the information boards and the handy little "spotter's leaflets") rather than just having to guess?

 

Possibly. I do find that explaining what is running and why can be a big part of drawing in an audience at a show. 

[CUTLER2579]

1 hour ago, ROY@34F said:

Thanks for that Derek . I hope you are keeping well .

On your list I'm sure 60050 , 60111 , 60102 , 60061 , and maybe 60108 came to Grantham . Am I correct do you think ? 

I started as a cleaner in August '57 and I remember all of those I'm sure . I also thought 60054 came from the GC. Is that correct do you think Derek ?

 

Regards , Roy .

 

Roy,

keeping fairly well Roy thank you.

60050 went from Neasden to 34A Kings Cross on 24th June 1956 and then on to 34F Grantham on 16th September 1956 .

 60054 went from Leicester to 34A Kings Cross on 10th June 1956 and then to 34F Grantham on 16th June 1957.

60061 went from Neasden to 34F Grantham on 22nd February 1953.then had several moves  including 34F Grantham in 1954 until 1959 before returning once more to  34F Grantham on 16th June 1963.

60102 left Leicester on 1st September 1957 and went  34A Kings Cross and left on 13th October 1957 for 36A Doncaster before going to 

34F Grantham on 14th June 1959.

60108 left Neasden for the last time on 27th January 1957 for 34A Kings Cross, then went to 36A, 34A & 34E before going to 34F Grantham on 16th June 1963.

60111 went from Leicester to 34F Grantham on 15th September 1957.

 Kind Regards,Derek.

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

And yet, the wonderful Leicester South Goods appears to operate with a 'representative' selection of 'interesting' trains which are all, in themselves, apparently highly authentic and appropriate for their individual period and location; and yet they deliberately cover a wide time-frame from the late 1940s to the early 1960s.  And no-one ever seems to complain about that, or find it unconvincing that the display isn't pinned-down to a specific year.

 

Maybe that's just because we're explicitly told what is going-on (on the information boards and the handy little "spotter's leaflets") rather than just having to guess?

 

Good evening Willie,

 

Personally I would have gone for a set year or couple of years, However, LSGC was not going to be done that way, so I and one or two others, were determined that if that was to be the case, it would be done properly. To make such a scheme work, you have to cover the whole period so that you are telling a cohesive story. There are a couple of distinct periods represented on LSGC and they are visually apparent to the viewer. The difficult part was shepherding modelers away from the late fifties early sixties default setting. The reason being, that particular period in isolation, doesn't work for a GCLE framed layout. It was important that the late fifties era was represented but didn't dominate. It currently only represents a fifth to a quarter of the stock and thus the story.

 

If you take some of the iconic elements of the GC in the post war period, such as the runners, the cross country expresses or the Master Cutler. The former were very much an LNER innovation and didn't start with the 9F era, that is a story that can be told in a longer time frame. The Master Cutler on the other hand, was very much not a part of the late fifties early sixties time period and should not be shoehorned into it. On the other hand, clapped out Royal Scots trundeling around on pick up goods, were a unique if undignified feature of the sixties scene.  The cross country expresses had such a flavour of the big four rather than just interregional workings, it is worth putting the emphasis on this in model form. In short, quite a bit of work went into getting the layout to cohear as an extended time period. It is one of the few layouts were I have heard people at the barrier explaining to one another what is going on in the context of time.

 

At the end of the day you can't get much better than when the locals or ex railway workers come up to you to tell you which house the lived in, the time they swam in the river, were they courted or spotted, the locomotive they fired and the services they worked and then they point and say 'that one there'.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Headstock
add info

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

The A3's left Neasden Shed before it came under the London Midland Region on the 1st January 1958.

The Last one there was 60108 which left on 27/11/1957

                                           60063 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60050 which left on 24/06/1956

                                           60044  which left on 25/03/1956

                                           60111  which left on 27/03/1955

                                           60104 which left on 26/12/1954

                                           60052 which left on 05/12/1954

                                           60102 which left on 21/11/1954

                                           60051 which left  on 15/11/1953

                                           60061 which left on 13/03/1955

 

Obviously 15E Leicester had a large allocation of A3's and some of them may have outlasted "Gay Crusader" on the GC,but I am not sure.

                                          

 

60108 was certainly the last A3 based at Neasden, though Yeadon’s lists her transferring to Kings X on 27/1/57 rather than in the November as you state.  What was your data source?  Presumably there is a typo either in Yeadon’s or your own  source giving the discrepancy.  It is possible, but seems unlikely that 60108 would be the sole remaining member of the class based at Neasden for well over a year, including outlasting all the Leicester based A3’s by 10 weeks?  So a bit of a riddle then, for now!

 

If 60108 did leave the GC in the January rather than November of ‘57, the Leicester eight would be the last A3’s on the GC, listed as departing in three batches during 1957 as follows:

 

7/4/57:  Leicester to Kings X - 60039 and 60059

1/9/57:  Leicester to Kings X - 60102 and 60104

15/9/57:  Leicester to Grantham - 60049, 60106, 60107 and 60111

 

Phil

[LNER4479]

My understanding re the A3s leaving the GC is this was part of a wider shuffle round of the ER pacific fleet in conjunction with a re-cast ECML timetable based on service accelerations, starting with the Talisman in 1956. The ones that went to Grantham were to replace the latter depot's Peppercorn A1s which were henceforth used more intensively and efficiently, cutting down on the loco changes at Grantham (which had been reintroduced big time in the immediate post-war era due to the Gresley pacifics not taking too kindly to minimal maintenance attention during the unpleasantness). Add to that the fitment of double chimneys to the A3s from 1957 onwards, greatly improving their performance, and the stage was set for the glorious swansong on the ECML immediately prior to the diesel revolution.

 

Meanwhile, the GC started on its sad, inexorable decline ...

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

First was 'Hanbury' RM March 1983 ROTM (photography by Brian Monaghan!)

Then 'Strathmore Route' Model Rail May 2001 (my favourite of them all to operate)

I shall look those up!

[Steamport Southport]

Just had a look at Magazine Exchange. It's March 1982 for Hanbury.

 

http://magazineexchange.co.uk/cw/railway-modeller-magazine-march-1982-issue.html

 

 

 

Jason

[Woodcock29]

14 hours ago, Headstock said:

I like a bit of both, if it something that I've researched, I would want to incorporate that operation. If it is something that I've built then I can get pleasure from just seeing it run.

I'm also in both camps.

 

I love to see models I've built just running so that happens a lot but I'm also in an operating group of 5 people who rotate around each others places (we restarted a few weeks ago) and although only one of those layouts is based on a real location (Nottingham Victoria - the station itself is mostly accurate but the remainder of that layout is fictitious) we attempt to run trains that are prototypical for the areas the layouts are meant to represent within the constraints of the layout sizes and in two of the five layouts availability of RTR stock. Only two of the layouts see a lot of kit built stock. Shunting is a must on all of the layouts but again the degree of that varies from layout to layout and in my case shunting is mostly undertaken by the branch operator and the secondary station operator. The Mainline operator is too busy running a sequence of trains from the storage loops but the associated yard operator for the main station has a mixture of operations.

 

Andrew 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I always thought that there was an opportunity for a goods train going North to stop, back into the yard to clear the line, shunt without blocking either main line then depart to the North again. All the time leaving the Southbound line clear.

 

Perhaps I have forgotten some aspect of the track plan that made that difficult.

 

It wouldn't have to do much, just drop of a brake van and pick up or drop off a wagon or two.

 

I find that one of the things that divides the operators from the runners of trains is that one looks for reasons to do interesting moves, the other looks for reasons to avoid them!

 

 

 

 

  

Good morning Tony,

 

'I always thought that there was an opportunity for a goods train going North to stop, back into the yard to clear the line, shunt without blocking either main line then depart to the North again. All the time leaving the Southbound line clear.'

 

That move took place at least once in every sequence, where the Down pick-up shunted the yard. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.