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9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I always thought that there was an opportunity for a goods train going North to stop, back into the yard to clear the line, shunt without blocking either main line then depart to the North again. All the time leaving the Southbound line clear.

 

Perhaps I have forgotten some aspect of the track plan that made that difficult.

 

It wouldn't have to do much, just drop of a brake van and pick up or drop off a wagon or two.

 

I find that one of the things that divides the operators from the runners of trains is that one looks for reasons to do interesting moves, the other looks for reasons to avoid them!

 

 

 

 

  

Sorry Tony,

 

Me again; I didn't read all your post. 

 

'I find that one of the things that divides the operators from the runners of trains is that one looks for reasons to do interesting moves, the other looks for reasons to avoid them!'

 

It depends on the definition of 'interesting'. Recalling a summer's day at Retford in 1959, I watched a K1 or a B1 (can't remember exactly which) fussing about with some wagons in the sidings adjacent to the Queen's Hotel, when the Up fast boards came off. A few minutes later MERLIN came chiming through with the Elizabethan. No contest! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Halls were certainly common in Nottingham Vic' (it was a Grange which made it to Huddersfield, by the way, demolishing platform edges on its merry way!). 

 

Not realy true, Tony. They became more common in 1964 and 1965 when they started working through on the Poole-Bradford, but before that they invariably came off at Leicester. I never saw one North of Leicester before 1964. Of course, as far as Charwelton was concerned, they were much more frequent visitors. I saw my first Hall (6906 Chicheley Hall) at Leicester Central when on a shopping visit with my grandma, when I was about 6. I hated the shopping bit, if I remember correctly.

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2 minutes ago, Clem said:

Not realy true, Tony. They became more common in 1964 and 1965 when they started working through on the Poole-Bradford, but before that they invariably came off at Leicester. I never saw one North of Leicester before 1964. Of course, as far as Charwelton was concerned, they were much more frequent visitors. I saw my first Hall (6906 Chicheley Hall) at Leicester Central when on a shopping visit with my grandma, when I was about 6. I hated the shopping bit, if I remember correctly.

Thanks Clem,

 

I was basing my assumption on photographs of Halls at Nottingham Vic'; clearly, post-'64. Most seem to show them on the turntable. 

 

Did they just turn there, and then return? Not going to any local shed for servicing? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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5 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

I'm also in both camps.

 

I love to see models I've built just running so that happens a lot but I'm also in an operating group of 5 people who rotate around each others places (we restarted a few weeks ago) and although only one of those layouts is based on a real location (Nottingham Victoria - the station itself is mostly accurate but the remainder of that layout is fictitious) we attempt to run trains that are prototypical for the areas the layouts are meant to represent within the constraints of the layout sizes and in two of the five layouts availability of RTR stock. Only two of the layouts see a lot of kit built stock. Shunting is a must on all of the layouts but again the degree of that varies from layout to layout and in my case shunting is mostly undertaken by the branch operator and the secondary station operator. The Mainline operator is too busy running a sequence of trains from the storage loops but the associated yard operator for the main station has a mixture of operations.

 

Andrew 

 

Good morning Andrew,

 

I'm not one for sticking people in boxes, most are much more complicated than that. However, I'm much more of a builder than anything else and a pretty good strategic thinker. I enjoy operating and just running has its place but I don't need to do either on a daily basis. I like to operate the yard on LSGC in a prototypical fashion, this often has someone complaining or querying why I have the shunter and Guards van sandwiched between two rafts of vans. Out will come the photographs, we carry a book full of them as thick as an old fashioned telephone directory, to explain that is the way it was done.

 

Nottingham Victoria often comes up on this thread. One thing that I often think that people don't take into consideration, is how complex the movements were around the platform approaches. So much so, that it would require an incredibly complicated and huge fiddle yard, with barely space for any through trains, or the opportunity to run them in the timetable. Leicester Central was just as bad in that regard.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I was basing my assumption on photographs of Halls at Nottingham Vic'; clearly, post-'64. Most seem to show them on the turntable. 

 

Did they just turn there, and then return? Not going to any local shed for servicing? 

Now that requires an explanation... The turntable at the South end of Nottingham Victoria was used in the beginning. But, for a Hall, it was a really tight fit and one day the inevitable happened and 6911 Holker Hall came off the turntable, mid-turn,  with the rear axle of its tender. The Colwick breakdown crane and team were called and promptly turned up with crane and all with a B1. If the turntable track had been lined up with the exit road, it would have been a simple task of giving the Hall some forward 'welly' after chocking up the rear axle. As it was that would simply lead to the Hall coming off the other end into the well. The foreman of the breakdown gang was a bright bloke though and after looking at the situation realised that if he pulled his B1 forward on the adjacent road to the turntable, its left hand buffer lined up with the Halls left hand buffer. So he pulled the B1 forward to the required positiion and then was confident enough re-rail the tender under the Halls own power, the buffers of the two engines coming together. The Hall came off the turntable seemingly no worse for wear and proceeded to Annesley for inspection before returning light engine to Banbury. This whole episode was caught on film by David Swale and is on you tube (somewhere). I also have a copy of it (I used to visit Dave's house in Claydon in the early 1990s and he kindly let me video many of his films). If I can find it, I post it. 

 

Anyway, to cut the story short, the Halls used the Bulwell Common-Basford North-Bagthorpe triangle to turn after that. The Halls used to come up on the Poole-Bradford on Saturdays about 4pm if I remember correctly and run back light engine about 4-50 ahead of the 5-15 to Marylebone usually headed by a Scot in 1964.

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12 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

Indeed yes; I understand that there were still seven allocated to Leicester Shed at the beginning of 1957, and nearly all stayed until the Autumn; a little before the actual handover to the LMR, but presumably the ER had Notice - or at least could see the way the wind was blowing - and didn't want to see some of their 'favourite' engines abandoned to an uncaring successor.

 

What has always puzzled me is why Neasden lost almost all its allocation so early - consistently four or five in the early 1950s, but down to just a couple at best by 1956.  Was there perhaps a change in the working pattern of the expresses that meant they were no longer required there? 

 

I think one reason was the arrival of 5 brand new BR Standard 5MT's  73155 to 73159 which could work the A3 rosters to a satisfactory standard (excuse unintentional Pun.)

Regards.

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10 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

60108 was certainly the last A3 based at Neasden, though Yeadon’s lists her transferring to Kings X on 27/1/57 rather than in the November as you state.  What was your data source?  Presumably there is a typo either in Yeadon’s or your own  source giving the discrepancy.  It is possible, but seems unlikely that 60108 would be the sole remaining member of the class based at Neasden for well over a year, including outlasting all the Leicester based A3’s by 10 weeks?  So a bit of a riddle then, for now!

 

If 60108 did leave the GC in the January rather than November of ‘57, the Leicester eight would be the last A3’s on the GC, listed as departing in three batches during 1957 as follows:

 

7/4/57:  Leicester to Kings X - 60039 and 60059

1/9/57:  Leicester to Kings X - 60102 and 60104

15/9/57:  Leicester to Grantham - 60049, 60106, 60107 and 60111

 

Phil

 

 Phil, some idiot made a Typo and so Yeadons and my source  (BR Database) are both correct. If I have an excuse I have Wet Macular Dystrophy and my Injection is due on Friday.

Kind regards,Del.:blush_mini:

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10 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

 

I think one reason was the arrival of 5 brand new BR Standard 5MT's  73155 to 73159 which could work the A3 rosters to a satisfactory standard (excuse unintentional Pun.)

Regards.

Some of the trains also became shorter, thus reducing the load. The Master Cutler had been 11 or 12 but came down to 8 or 9. The South Yorkshireman also shrank a bit, coming down as short as 8 in the winter, as seen here:

 

50052039657_3bba8cbe2e_c.jpg61265_up-South-Yorkshireman_Bulwell-Viaduct_1950s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I believe that one reason that the pacifics went back to the GC in 1949 was that the B1s were struggling to keep time with the longer trains that were by then running.

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9 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Regarding Holker Hall at Nottingham Victoria, look at the lady in the carriage on the right:

 

33758369135_b902b828b6_c.jpg6911_NottVic by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

  

She'll be upsetting her fellow passengers looking at her Ian Allan Combined volume by shouting "It's a cop" !!!!

 

Then again -------------

 

Brit15

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The thing about the A3's on the GC in the post war years, is that the Eastern region were very reluctant to send RA 9 Pacific locomotives away from the East Coast mainline. They were literally forced to do so by public pressure. It's not surprising that the recaled them at the first available excuse. To be fair, the reasons for their original deployment were somewhat relieved. I don't think the GC men missed them that much beyond, the symbol they represented, regarding the V2's as the bees knees in the LNER fleet of big engines. Even the Midland men, drafted to the GC loved the V2's.

 

Halls at Nottingham Victoria, specials would bring them through to Nottingham, such as those run for the Nottingham Goose fair. The GWR locomotive would even take the empty carriages through to New Basford. Prior to the War, Stars were seen at the Vic. One of our friendly trainspotters, got down to Leicester Central at one O'clock in the morning, to see the regular working by a Swindon Castle. S15 and Arthur's got as far as Leicester, not sure about Nottingham Victoria.

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15 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Regarding Holker Hall at Nottingham Victoria, look at the lady in the carriage on the right:

 

33758369135_b902b828b6_c.jpg6911_NottVic by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Probably on it's way running light to Banbury ahead of the 5-15pm to London which I think is on the right. It looks 1964 rather than 1965 judging by the its condition.

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24 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Some of the trains also became shorter, thus reducing the load. The Master Cutler had been 11 or 12 but came down to 8 or 9. The South Yorkshireman also shrank a bit, coming down as short as 8 in the winter, as seen here:

 

50052039657_3bba8cbe2e_c.jpg61265_up-South-Yorkshireman_Bulwell-Viaduct_1950s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I believe that one reason that the pacifics went back to the GC in 1949 was that the B1s were struggling to keep time with the longer trains that were by then running.

 

Morning Robert,

 

you are correct. There was a huge boom in post war rail travel in the forties, that tailed off as the fifties progressed. Trains generally got bigger in the forties and needed more powerful locomotives. By 1948, the B1's were struggling to run to time with the increase in the weight of trains. There was much uproar in the press at the time. I think it was Cecil J Allan who calculated that the power output required was beyond the capabilities of a class 5 locomotive and something had to be done. There was much speculation that A2 locomotives, of the Thompson type, may have been deployed but they were somewhat problematic. Something more reliable, that the GC crews and fitters had experience of was required.

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2 minutes ago, Headstock said:

The thing about the A3's on the GC in the post war years, is that the Eastern region were very reluctant to send RA 9 Pacific locomotives away from the East Coast mainline. They were literally forced to do so by public pressure. It's not surprising that the recaled them at the first available excuse. To be fair, the reasons for their original deployment were somewhat relieved. I don't think the GC men missed them that much beyond, the symbol they represented, regarding the V2's as the bees knees in the LNER fleet of big engines. Even the Midland men, drafted to the GC loved the V2's.

 

Halls at Nottingham Victoria, specials would bring them through to Nottingham, such as those run for the Nottingham Goose fair. The GWR locomotive would even take the empty carriages through to New Basford. Prior to the War, Stars were seen at the Vic. One of our friendly trainspotters, got down to Leicester Central at one O'clock in the morning, to see the regular working by a Swindon Castle. S15 and Arthur's got as far as Leicester, not sure about Nottingham Victoria.

Morning Andrew. There is at least one recorded example of an Arthur getting to Nottingham Vic in the 50s. And yes Halls did get there before 1964 but only very, very rarely. Nothing regular as in 1964/5. I lived by the railway in the early 1960s and never saw a Hall until the later years mentioned.  There was also the example (in 1963 I think) of 6 Bulleid light pacifics getting to Nottingham on a sixth round FA cup day when Forest were playing Southampton. On Stars and such, Gordon Hepburn has photographed at least one Star there in the 1930s. I agree about the V2s. I think the GC in the main always were rarely given the better performing A3s which as a class were then getting a bit old in the tooth by the 50s. The Kylchap changed all that, of course.

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15 minutes ago, Clem said:

Morning Andrew. There is at least one recorded example of an Arthur getting to Nottingham Vic in the 50s. And yes Halls did get there before 1964 but only very, very rarely. Nothing regular as in 1964/5. I lived by the railway in the early 1960s and never saw a Hall until the later years mentioned.  There was also the example (in 1963 I think) of 6 Bulleid light pacifics getting to Nottingham on a sixth round FA cup day when Forest were playing Southampton. On Stars and such, Gordon Hepburn has photographed at least one Star there in the 1930s. I agree about the V2s. I think the GC in the main always were rarely given the better performing A3s which as a class were then getting a bit old in the tooth by the 50s. The Kylchap changed all that, of course.

 

Agreed Clem, there was no timetable working of a GWR locomotive to Nottingham prior to 64 as there was to Leicester. So you would wait a long time to see one. However, it was not unknown for a Hall to be half inched, for a quick return trip on an ordinary passenger train between Leicester and Nottingham.

 

One suspects the railways only continued to run, due to the 'borrowing' of available locomotives. I was reading somewhere, that the K1's were so popular that they were constantly succumbing to mysterious breakdowns at foreign sheds, only to be instantly revived and turn up shortly afterwards on one of the sheds workings.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Clem said:

Morning Andrew. There is at least one recorded example of an Arthur getting to Nottingham Vic in the 50s. And yes Halls did get there before 1964 but only very, very rarely. Nothing regular as in 1964/5. I lived by the railway in the early 1960s and never saw a Hall until the later years mentioned.  There was also the example (in 1963 I think) of 6 Bulleid light pacifics getting to Nottingham on a sixth round FA cup day when Forest were playing Southampton. On Stars and such, Gordon Hepburn has photographed at least one Star there in the 1930s. I agree about the V2s. I think the GC in the main always were rarely given the better performing A3s which as a class were then getting a bit old in the tooth by the 50s. The Kylchap changed all that, of course.

 

30 March 1963 - 1:1 draw.  Replay at the Dell 3 April, when we were losing by three goals with 15 minutes left and drew 3:3.  Second replay at White Hart Lane a week later and we won 5:0.  I was there!  Then we lost in the semi-final to Denis Law's knee.  Bill (the Scummer)

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39 minutes ago, Clem said:

Morning Andrew. There is at least one recorded example of an Arthur getting to Nottingham Vic in the 50s. And yes Halls did get there before 1964 but only very, very rarely. Nothing regular as in 1964/5. I lived by the railway in the early 1960s and never saw a Hall until the later years mentioned.  There was also the example (in 1963 I think) of 6 Bulleid light pacifics getting to Nottingham on a sixth round FA cup day when Forest were playing Southampton. On Stars and such, Gordon Hepburn has photographed at least one Star there in the 1930s. I agree about the V2s. I think the GC in the main always were rarely given the better performing A3s which as a class were then getting a bit old in the tooth by the 50s. The Kylchap changed all that, of course.

 

THe A3 sent to the GC in the late forties were not in the best of condition. The exceptions being the two ex works blue locomotive sent to work the Cutler. With five of the eleven carriages providing first class accomodation, you get that kind of attention. The A3's debut was a bit of a disaster, public opinion continued to be outraged as a number of locomotives failed, some in quite a spectacular fashion, as they literally fell to bits on the road. Still, the GC men stripped them down and got them working. A certain east coast mainline depot, on noticing this, tried to swap the restored engines out for more crud piles of their own. The GC men were having none of that, managing to retain the best and sending back the worst.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Sorry Tony,

 

Me again; I didn't read all your post. 

 

'I find that one of the things that divides the operators from the runners of trains is that one looks for reasons to do interesting moves, the other looks for reasons to avoid them!'

 

It depends on the definition of 'interesting'. Recalling a summer's day at Retford in 1959, I watched a K1 or a B1 (can't remember exactly which) fussing about with some wagons in the sidings adjacent to the Queen's Hotel, when the Up fast boards came off. A few minutes later MERLIN came chiming through with the Elizabethan. No contest! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

In my view, a layout that depicts a variety of operations is the best. The express stopping to connect with a branch train waiting in the bay. The adding or removing of vehicles. The express thundering through. All add their own bit of railway atmosphere. The pick up goods. The occasional special, perhaps horse boxes. Most of all the mineral traffic that many routes were built for.

 

The layouts I have enjoyed most are the ones that get the balance right. An express going by looks great but you need the "counterpoint" of the other workings to emphasise the "specialness" of the express.

 

A loco fussing about in a yard being passed by an express is much more interesting than one express then another express.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CUTLER2579 said:

 

I think one reason was the arrival of 5 brand new BR Standard 5MT's  73155 to 73159 which could work the A3 rosters to a satisfactory standard (excuse unintentional Pun.)

Regards.

 

The GC me really, really, really liked the Standard class 5. Frank Stratford said that if the choice was between a Black five and a B1, they were quite evenly matched, you would take the B1 one for the better injectors. If there was a Standard 5 available, you would have that over the other two.

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44 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

30 March 1963 - 1:1 draw.  Replay at the Dell 3 April, when we were losing by three goals with 15 minutes left and drew 3:3.  Second replay at White Hart Lane a week later and we won 5:0.  I was there!  Then we lost in the semi-final to Denis Law's knee.  Bill (the Scummer)

Yes I remember the football too even though I've had 57 years to trying to forget it.  I didn't really want to mention that side of it. :sorry:

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14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Roy,

 

Great to meet you today (at two metres, of course), and thanks again for your help.

 

These pictures should help Jesse in building his Allington Junction project. 

 

604444618_Gonerbytunnelcutting.jpg.bf0cf7f1789ca12a287abe768b9436be.jpg

 

1429987400_NewarkRoadbridge01.jpg.19eb2f00598f5bf83be6d6e4bf2fe33b.jpg

 

893689912_NewarkRoadbridge09.jpg.2e8dbe5c3d5945927cd2d69e21534f68.jpg

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks again Tony and Roy. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

In my view, a layout that depicts a variety of operations is the best. The express stopping to connect with a branch train waiting in the bay. The adding or removing of vehicles. The express thundering through. All add their own bit of railway atmosphere. The pick up goods. The occasional special, perhaps horse boxes. Most of all the mineral traffic that many routes were built for.

 

The layouts I have enjoyed most are the ones that get the balance right. An express going by looks great but you need the "counterpoint" of the other workings to emphasise the "specialness" of the express.

 

A loco fussing about in a yard being passed by an express is much more interesting than one express then another express.

 

 

We will have all of that, except perhaps the specials, on the Mid-Cornwall Lines once the branch is built.

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3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

We will have all of that, except perhaps the specials, on the Mid-Cornwall Lines once the branch is built.

 

Glad to hear it!

 

Even on Buckingham, which isn't even a continuous run, we have expresses rattling through Grandborough Junction including one that detaches a slip coach. So even a train that just rattles through can have a bit of added operational interest.

 

When we run Narrow Road to its sequence, there is an ebb and flow of local trains and goods, connections with a branch, plus some "non stop" running from one end of the line to the other, around 120ft. If we just had a token goods and a local train and 90% expresses, it would soon get boring. The mix is around 50% local trains, 25% goods and 25% expresses. It seems about right for the layout and the facilities. 

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