Wright writes.....

[65179]

11 hours ago, Clem said:

Morning Baz, Thanks for that. Yes the photos I've got of them in my area are like yours, inconclusive. I get the feeling that some were painted crimson but don't know what percentage. To be honest, I would like some teak in my sets anyway but photos indicate the later most or all Gresleys were painted crimson quite early on in the BR period.

 

I've got some of the Railway Observers for the late 40s and early 1950s.  These mention CLC coaches coming back from works attention at Doncaster (not Dukinfield by this point - the LNER announced the end of carriage repair work there in June 1939) on one of the morning trains from Sheffield to Manchester Central.  The non-corridor coaches specifically mentioned included some coming back painted brown (even still lettered CLC) whilst others (for example the GC-built 50' elliptical roof stock) were definitely crimson.  The GC non-corridor stock on services like the Guide Bridge-Oldham trains definitely remained teak/brown for a long time!  One of the writers of a book on these services, Coachmann formerly of this forum, did some rather nice early BR non-corridor GC matchboard stock when he was still on here.  He did his as a mixture of crimson and weathered teak with BR numbers.

 

Simon

Edited August 11, 2020 by 65179
to add Dukinfield detail

[cctransuk]

In the spirt of showing our recent modelling, this is one of a rake of ten Hattons TOPS era ICI limestone hopper; (still available to purchase); that has been backdated by the addition of Appleby Model Engineering etched ICI lettering and Cambridge Custom Transfers number and owner's plates.

 

The ICI etches and the transfers are both available from https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

 

John Isherwood.

[Clem]

20 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

I've got some of the Railway Observers for the late 40s and early 1950s.  These mention CLC coaches coming back from works attention at Doncaster (not Dukinfield by this point) on one of the morning trains from Sheffield to Manchester Central.  The non-corridor coaches specifically mentioned included some coming back painted brown (even still lettered CLC) whilst others (for example the GC 50' elliptical roof stock) were definitely crimson.  The GC non-corridor stock on services like the Guide Bridge-Oldham trains definitely remained teak/brown for a long time!  One of the writers of a book on these services, Coachmann formerly of this forum, did some rather nice early BR non-corridor GC matchboard stock when he was still on here.  He did his as a mixture of crimson and weathered teak with BR numbers.

 

Simon

Thanks Simon, 

That's a very helpful and useful input and does fit in with what I was expecting. Modelling 1954/5 makes it more important to get evidence. If it was 1951 or 1952, I would almost certainly plump for teak as far fewer carriages would have been through works. I'm not sure of the allocation history of the GC carriages in the Nottingham area and it could be that some did come from the Manchester area but I think it's more likely that they had been in the vicinity for many years. However, I can't imagine Doncasters painting policy would change depending on allocation, so your input is quite significant. I'm thinking of a couple of matchboard 60' carriages to bring variety and authenticism to my passenger trains.

[t-b-g]

34 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

Not any more we don't, as liquids cannot be sent through the post. Eileen's Emporium will courier it out.

 

Never even entered my head! Well spotted and thanks.

[Tony Wright]

Retford's future has certainly generated some interest.

 

I've just sent a piece (which Sandra has seen) to the Railway Modeller for insertion into its News section next month. 

 

Thanks to Tony Gee for the help with this.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Anyone else spot the converted diagram 16 RKB? Second coach, there were only 3 of them.

Thanks for confirming what it is, Clive.

 

It would have come off the train at Sheffield Vic' (and not run over Woodhead), to be attached to the eastbound service later in the day.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[CF MRC]

And now for something completely different:

Thrirty five years since I made the previous one -there is a bit more to it than seen here...

Tim

Edited August 11, 2020 by CF MRC

[Daniel W]

On the subject of glueing glazing, i have used both 'Glue and Glaze' from Deluxe materials and Humbrol Clearfix. The former is like a hybrid between varnish and pva, being very thin. The latter has a much thicker consistancy and is more like a traditional glue.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Daniel W

[robertcwp]

19 minutes ago, Daniel W said:

On the subject of glueing glazing, i have used both 'Glue and Glaze' from Deluxe materials and Humbrol Clearfix. The former is like a hybrid between varnish and pva, being very thin. The latter has a much thicker consistancy and is more like a traditional glue.

I have also used Micro Kristal Klear from Eileen's Emporium, which can also be used for glazing small windows. I have found it to be an excellent glue for small details such as pipes on diesel buffer beams. 

[robertcwp]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

You can certainly see mixed colours on Little Bytham and Retford and I am sure they were on Stoke Summit and Gamston Bank too, amongst others. 

I thought Gamston Bank, set if I recall correctly in 1955, was a bit too uniform. There were certainly varnished teak and mock teak carriages still around then as well as some pre-grouping stock in teak paint (ie plain brown).

 

Maroon did not come to the Eastern until around September 1956, the official launch such as it was being with The Talisman. Railway Observer reported York and Doncaster beginning to outshop stock in maroon around that time. The LMR had been painting stock in maroon for several months by then, which is perhaps not surprising as it was very similar to the old LMS livery.

[Tony Wright]

With regard to mixed liveries in trains, some shots from a (very hot) Little Bytham this evening.................

 

 

Class A1/1 GREAT NORTHERN (Crownline/Wright/Rathbone) heads a typically assorted rake from the period depicted by the layout. 

 

 

The W1 (South Eastern Finecast/Wright/Rathbone) heads a more-important service, though the set (made up mostly of Mk.1s) is mainly in carmine/cream.

 

 

Non-gangwayed stock in (weathered) crimson would still be seen in 1958. Prototypically, this A5 (Nu-Cast/Wright) and its set would more-likely to have been seen working from Grantham to Nottingham, but it's such a nice train. The four-set was made/painted/weathered using Comet kits by John Houlden, and when he sold his OO Gauge stuff, this couldn't be resisted. 

 

 

As already-mentioned, the prestige rakes would have been in all-maroon in 1958, as shown by this shot of 'The Flying Scotsman' heading north behind a Deltic. But, it can't be 1958; in fact, it's four/five years later, when LB station had been demolished. No matter, Rule 1 applies! 

 

 

[robertcwp]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Richard,

 

I have really no idea what colour the carriages were when I first travelled between Kiveton Park and Retford return. All I know is that they were filthy.

 

They could have been any diagram, but I wouldn't have known - ex-GC, ex-GN, ex-LNER. They were all non-gangwayed in my recollection. 

 

How about this?

 

 

 

Taken at Kiveton Park 'in the 1950s'. The first two carriages would appear to be gangwayed stock, but probably not the third one. 

 

Despite blowing this image up, it's impossible to tell if the carriages are lined. If not, could they still be in teak/brown? Can the Land Rover accurately date the shot? 

 

 

 

The boat train near Kiveton Bridge. Again 'in the 1950s', so could the seventh car be still in teak? If it's a Mk.1, then it can't be, but I can't tell. 

 

 

 

Another 1950s scene, this time on the main line near Retford (exactly where, I'm not sure). I can't detect any lining on the leading car (which is Thompson PV stock), but the loco has AWS so I suspect it's in maroon.

 

 

 

The A1 is in BR blue, so anything in the train not in carmine and cream will still be in teak.

 

 

 

This shot was probably taken in 1955 (numberplate lowered, but 60533 still has a rimmed chimney), so it's probable that the leading ex-LMS brake is still in LMS maroon. 

 

And one for Retford, taken on Gamston Bank in 1957. 

 

What's the point in showing these prototype pictures (which are all subject to copyright restrictions)? Well, it would appear to me that teak/pre-Nationalisation colours lasted quite a long time into BR days, giving an amazing variety. 

 

My own personal memories are far too unreliable for me to offer anything with credibility (though these were scenes I saw). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

61313 - first carriage is a Gresley CK(3 1/2-4) - ie 3 1/2 first class and 4 third class compartments. The second one appears to be non-gangwayed, probably a Gresley 6-compartment brake third. The third is also non-gangwayed. 

 

Boat train - agree with Clive that second is one of the Gresley RKB rebuilds, which puts the date no earlier than 1953. Retford could do with one of these. The third carriage looks like a short Gresley open third built for the GE section. Seventh is probably a plain crimson Mark 1 BG - there was often one in the train in the mid-1950s and there are photos and even colour film footage to support this. Next is what looks like a Thompson open third still in mock teak. The final carriage is also LNER design.

 

60105 - the first carriage could well be in mock teak. The brake thirds were displaced from the prestige services they were built for after 1950 or thereabouts so would then have become a lower priority for repainting. 

 

60833 is probably heading a Saturday extra or a relief train of some description. There were quite a few in the carriage workings. The lack of catering car suggests it's not a front-rank express. On such workings, I suspect not much attention was paid as to which way round the brakes were.

[robertcwp]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

As already-mentioned, the prestige rakes would have been in all-maroon in 1958, as shown by this shot of 'The Flying Scotsman' heading north behind a Deltic. But, it can't be 1958; in fact, it's four/five years later, when LB station had been demolished. No matter, Rule 1 applies! 

 

 

Today, I saw a 1959 photo of the Talisman with a crimson and cream BSO leading the set. There are also photos around of crimson and cream carriages in the Aberdeen section of the Elizabethan in 1958 and 1959 because those carriages changed on a daily basis due to the complex workings of the various Aberdeen portions.

[robertcwp]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

'Officially', 'The Elizabethan' only ran from Monday to Friday in the summer timetable. The set also ran on Saturdays, but was strengthened by at least two/three cars towards the north end (these could be almost any type). The same A4s were used and should have carried the headboard reversed. The train was not non-stop.

 

The same A4s were also used on a Sunday, but not the set (which would be cleaned/maintained on that day). The Sunday train was made up of all sorts of jumbled stock, and was usually longer. Again, the headboard should have been reversed. 

 

 

The Elizabethan did run on Saturdays in 1953 I believe, but not thereafter. Identifying the genuine article is normally not difficult if you can see the whole train. If it has more than 11 carriages up to and including 1957 or more than 10 in 1958-61, it is very unlikely to be the Elizabethan, although there is the odd exception. If there is anything other than a BG at the London end, again it's unlikely to be the Elizabethan unless there has been a last-minute substitution. As for dates, the stock was crimson and cream up until the end of the 1956 summer and maroon thereafter (except as noted in a previous post for the two carriages at the north end, which changed daily from 1958). 1957 was the final year that the train included a buffet car and also the final year in which the Aberdeen portion joined back up with the Elizabethan next day. It was also the final year when the Aberdeen portion included a pressure-ventilated Thompson SK - thereafter the two northernmost carriages were both Mark 1 - BCK, SK. The southbound train no longer included an Aberdeen section from 1958, but two carriages that had worked to Edinburgh on another service were added to the set that had arrived the previous day to replace the two that had gone to Aberdeen and not come back in time for the next day's southbound train. If there is a Gresley RF in the set, the photo is probably from 1960 (or later) as a Gresley RF replaced a Thompson one damaged by fire towards the end of the 1959 season and seems to have been used again in subsequent years. If the north end BCK is a Mark 1, you are looking at 1955 or later. If there is a Mark 1 FK and RUO, you are probably looking at 1961. The SK with ladies' retiring room was reinstated that year, having last been in the train in 1957. In 1958-60, the only ladies' retiring room was in the FK and was officially unclassed. The other reference source is 'What's on the Lizzie?' which lists all the engines that worked the train in 1953-61. The Deltic-hauled 1962 train did not include an Aberdeen portion and was mostly Mark 1 stock, but still with a Thompson SK with ladies' retiring room and usually a Gresley RF in one set.

 

Gresley Society members will hopefully be able to read an article on the stock of the non-stop in the next Gresley Observer, which I put together with help from David Percival.

[robertcwp]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I use Birchwood Casey "Superblue" as sold by Wizard Models. As PMP has mentioned there are different products as they do a "Brass black" as well.

 

I have found that the "Superblue" works on brass, nickel silver, steel, even on solder and whitemetal, so it is my choice for most jobs.

 

The metal must be clean. You can either dip the metal in or apply it with a brush. I prefer using an old stiff brush as it seems to work the chemicals into the surface better. Leave it a few seconds then you polish. If you don't do this last bit, the chemical reaction can continue and the surface can get rough. I use a small pad of kitchen roll held in strong tweezers or pliers.

 

It is a really useful process for all sorts of things as you can use it as a solder resist when assembling nuts and bolts or valve gear, as long as you use a gentle paste flux, which doesn't eat it off. You can blacken a bolt to solder a nut to a footplate for example.

 

It also makes brass and nickel silver valve gear look much better and is very good at colouring exposed edges, like footplate, where paint can get rubbed off.

 

I discovered it quite a while ago and find it very useful stuff indeed.

Thanks for this. I see it is listed on the Eileen's Emporium website, along with several other blackening products, but the site does not state which one is for any particular metal. I found I had a Birchwood Casey Super Black instant touch-up pen in my drawer, which I bought from Eileen's some years ago (it still has the price sticker £8 on it) but I never used it. It is stated to be for anodized aluminium and possibly won't work on other metals. I was also put off by the notice "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer."  I might stick to shiny couplings and bars for now.

[cctransuk]

9 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

 "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer."

 

Is there anything sold in the USA that does NOT have that warning on it?

 

John Isherwood,

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Is there anything sold in the USA that does NOT have that warning on it?

 

John Isherwood,

 

I was just going to say, it seems a little excessive what gets labelled as such.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/california-cancer-warnings-coffee-2018-4?r=US&IR=T

 

 

[Andy Reichert]

28 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Is there anything sold in the USA that does NOT have that warning on it?

 

John Isherwood,

 

I have to put it on packs of Nickel Silver Rail. It's the Nickel that can do bad things.

Andy

[robertcwp]

On 05/08/2020 at 17:35, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

As always an informative and lucid post. 

 

Regarding CWNs, I suppose they represent an 'ideal', often not realised in everyday service. The ones I have are covered in hand-written alterations.

 

My take (for what it's worth) is that I'll definitely use the appropriate CWNs as a guide, but make-up my trains much more based on prototype pictures (despite many having notorious captions). This means, of course, that many might illustrate Saturday workings.

 

Out of interest, I've tried to have a go at identifying the following trains (without success). All are taken at around the time of Retford's depiction and at and around Retford. We could have great fun making up some of the trains..........

 

 

 

If this is from 1957, it could well be the 8.00 am (8.10 am Saturdays) Newcastle-King's Cross. The clue is the Silver Jubilee restaurant triplet set still in crimson and cream. The first four carriages don't match exactly with the equivalent 1956 working but they are close, with a Mark 1 in place of a Gresley and vice versa. 

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

I have to put it on packs of Nickel Silver Rail. It's the Nickel that can do bad things.

Andy

 

Political correctness gone mad !! ..... and politicians are paid (our) good money to dream up this madness !!

 

The best one in the UK at present is that, if roadworks use temporary traffic lights, there has to be a (at least) two man gang, sitting in a vehicle equipped with a spare set of temporary traffic lights, at all times that the first set of lights are in operation - just in case they fail!!!

 

Now that is a job I could do - even at the age of 70+.

 

John Isherwood.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

I have to put it on packs of Nickel Silver Rail. It's the Nickel that can do bad things.

Andy

 

Alternatively - put "Not for sale in California" on the packs!

 

John Isherwood.

[bbishop]

Does your blackener contain selenium dioxide?  Because that is one of the chemicals that I will only use if wearing medical gloves.

 

Bill (B Sc Chemistry)

[robertcwp]

On 05/08/2020 at 17:35, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

As always an informative and lucid post. 

 

Regarding CWNs, I suppose they represent an 'ideal', often not realised in everyday service. The ones I have are covered in hand-written alterations.

 

My take (for what it's worth) is that I'll definitely use the appropriate CWNs as a guide, but make-up my trains much more based on prototype pictures (despite many having notorious captions). This means, of course, that many might illustrate Saturday workings.

 

Out of interest, I've tried to have a go at identifying the following trains (without success). All are taken at around the time of Retford's depiction and at and around Retford. We could have great fun making up some of the trains..........

 

 

 

The front end of this one looks like the Norseman formation as it was the only train I can find that had the combination FO, RF, RSP, SO. The preponderance of maroon suggests it's later than 1957. In the Summer 1958 workings, the Saturday train was strengthened to 12 but the additions are shown at the front. I don't have the Summer 1959 or Summer 1960 East Coast workings and the workings had changed a lot by 1961. Nevertheless, I think a strengthened Saturday Norseman is the most likely train.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, CF MRC said:

And now for something completely different:

Thrirty five years since I made the previous one -there is a bit more to it than seen here...

Tim

Beautiful work, it looks better than the real thing does these days.  I believe the building is still in use as a store.

 

[65179]

42 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Does your blackener contain selenium dioxide?  Because that is one of the chemicals that I will only use if wearing medical gloves.

 

Bill (B Sc Chemistry)

 Birchwood Casey blues do indeed tend to use selenium. Superblue is listed as using selenous acid, copper (II) nitrate and nitric acid. 

 

Definitely something to handle with good gloves and eye protection, and to effectively dilute with water after use.

 

Simon