Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

'North of Watford' was how I've always known it described.

 

Meanwhile, living in the north, the converse expression to refer to 'suvvenas' was anywhere south of Stoke ... which means that the Midlands ends up being in no-man's land.

[grahame]

30 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Coming from South London (actually, one of those suburbs that wasn't even part of London until 1965), the North begins at that wiggly, watery thing that many taxi drivers in the West End "wouldn't go south of at this time of night"  

 

aka "The Thames"...

 

Yep, although I was born in North London (Marylebone), I consider South London to be a far nicer place (more open spaces, more tree lined roads, more houses with front gardens, better pubs, etc.,) and that 'the North' begins when you set foot on any of the bridges over the Thames. 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

40 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Coming from South London (actually, one of those suburbs that wasn't even part of London until 1965), the North begins at that wiggly, watery thing that many taxi drivers in the West End "wouldn't go south of at this time of night"  

 

aka "The Thames"...

Bal-ham, Gateway to the South?

 

32 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

'North of Watford' was how I've always known it described.

 

Meanwhile, living in the north, the converse expression to refer to 'suvvenas' was anywhere south of Stoke ... which means that the Midlands ends up being in no-man's land.

Surprised that nobody actually picked up my allusion. The road signs on the A1 leaving London always read "Hatfield and the North" (which was also the name of a pretty decent pub rock band in the 1970s). Conversely, after we moved to Scotland it tickled me on crossing the border and joining the M6 near Carlisle to see the signs for "Penrith and the South".

[ArthurK]

On 26/09/2020 at 12:04, Michael Edge said:

Frames behind radial wheels were always joggled inwards but not many kit designers seem to have realised this. Your solution might "engineering anathema" but if it works it's OK - simple side movement usually causes the radial wheel flanges to climb the rail, resulting in random derailments on plain track.

 

I must contest that. The frames of the NER A class (LNER F8) were 4' 0" apart throughout. It relied entirely on radial trucks front and rear. The wheebase was 7'6" + 8' 1 1/2"  +7-6" (total  23' 1 1/2"). The trucks were centred on a point midway between the coupled wheels. That poses a problem  in the the model. Should were treat it as  0-6-2 or 2-6-0 ? Or with  swinging trucks both front and back. Whatever we choose the frames will have to be inset on one or both of the trucks.

The NER 0-6-2Ts with radial trucks did have the frames inset,

 

ArthurK

[Michael Edge]

Fair enough Arthur, but 4' wide means narrow all the way along since 4'1 1/2" is more usual. The point I was making was that there has to be some room for the radial wheels to move sideways and a joggle in the frames is usual. I wouldn't use uncontrolled radial movement at both ends of a 2-4-2, especially with the much greater movement we require in our models. The C14 in my picture has the frames set out in exactly the same way as the full size one was, just narrower for 00 gauge. At the front end there is another joggle inwards for the bogie and the extreme front ends are tapered inwards.

[APOLLO]

"The North" is thought of as between Warrington and Preston and across to Accrington - towns where the local chippy's serve Hollands steak & kidney puddings, though some Wiganers state anywhere south of Bamfurlong is considered "The South" - a no go zone  !!

 

Brit15

[Chamby]

North and South depends, of course, entirely on where you are.  

 

So here...  Padstow is North, Falmouth is South, in between is Clay Country and anything East of the Tamar is a mysterious place referred to as UpCountry, an ungodly place that all the Emmets want to escape from every Summer.  

[Tony Wright]

Anyone know anything about this class?

 

 

It's Murphy Models' latest Irish Class 121.

 

I haven't a clue! 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Phil,

 

I can't find Clive's post which you quote (deleted?). 

 

If nothing else it proves the maxim of carefully reading something first before responding to it. Is this an electronic media phenomenon? The phenomenon of immediacy?  Time was when the response to an article/piece was by written media, and the post. A time to consider, reflect and think twice?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

Deleted as I realised my mistake very soon after posting.

 

Phil has been kind enough to remove his post as well. It appears as I was busy deleting my mistake , Phil was busy typing.

 

No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[t-b-g]

I have no idea if they are still there now as it is ages since I travelled that way but when we lived in Wiltshire and used to visit family in Sunderland, we would come across to the A1 and start to see signs that read "To the North".

 

If you kept going long enough, you eventually passed a sign that simply read "The North".

 

So we knew we were there.  

Edited September 27, 2020 by t-b-g
My keyboard needs replacing. Some letters don't always work first time.

[Tony Wright]

10 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hello Tony

 

Deleted as I realised my mistake very soon after posting.

 

Phil has been kind enough to remove his post as well. It appears as I was busy deleting my mistake , Phil was busy typing.

 

No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

'No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.'

 

Is that what you think is being done, Clive? I think it provides a salutary lesson, the like of which I could learn from from time to time. 

 

It also illustrates another fundamental difference between electronic communication and the printed word. Many's the time I wish I could just 'undo/alter/correct' something I've written which has been printed.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[APOLLO]

Its an GM (General motors) EMD (electro motive diesel) loco made in the USA

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_121_Class

 

Brit15

Edited September 27, 2020 by APOLLO

[ArthurK]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

"The North" is thought of as between Warrington and Preston and across to Accrington - towns where the local chippy's serve Hollands steak & kidney puddings, though some Wiganers state anywhere south of Bamfurlong is considered "The South" - a no go zone  !!

 

Brit15

 

Wrong!

South is anywhere beyond the bottom (south)  of County Durham. When I came to work in Preston, my mother-in-law to be declared "but that's in the Midlands"!

Enough of this we all see this  from different viiewpoints.

 

ArthurK  - Always a Geordie!

 

[eastwestdivide]

Surely "The North" is a state of mind. 

As my other half (Bradford) said, after I (Kent) had been haggling over a car, "that was a bit Northern".

[Tony Wright]

Returning to the theme of captioning, how about this image...........................?

 

 

What could be said about this?

 

Firstly, apologies for the poor-quality scan, but here goes..........

 

It's clearly Little Bytham and it's A3 60091 CAPTAIN CUTTLE on an Up express. 

 

The date? The MR/M&GNR overbridge was demolished in March 1963, and 60091 was withdrawn in October 1964, so it's clearly a summer shot (note the Spinney trees are in full-leaf) in either of those two years; my guess would be the former. 

 

The loco? She's carrying a Thompson 94HP boiler (not 94A as suggested by the RCTS), with no dome cover! The tender is a new-type high-sided variety, and the front numberplate is on the top hingestrap (meaning the top lamp iron has been lowered, but not to the A3's final position - not on all - which split the cross rail). 

 

The train? Nine cars-long, with two Thompsons and a Gresley along with the six BR Mk.1s. No destination/name boards, and no catering cars, so not a principal working. The Thompson FK carries the yellow stripe at cornice level (so it could be '64). A summer Saturday relief/extra? 60091 was a one-time standby A3 at Darlington, so is it substituting for a failed diesel? I cannot find this formation in any of my CWNs. 

 

The surroundings? The station was demolished in the summer of '59, but the 'footprint' where the Down island platform was sited is still visible (the Up island, behind the train was the same). The very tall Up fast starter has gone. Access to the goods shed from the south has been (half) severed; I wonder why? The station cottages are still extant, as is the stable (these had gone by the end of the decade). The lovely goods shed (still in use from the north?) would survive until 2008, though no longer in railway use. What's in the wagons, I don't know, though limestone (for the iron and steel industry) was loaded on the Down side. The signal box barge-boards are painted cream. In earlier times these were painted green. The embankment carrying the east/west route is clear of the 'Amazonia' which covers it today (are there cows grazing on its top?). 

 

What isn't needed is chapter and verse on the loco's build date and it's withdrawal date (though the the latter is pertinent to dating the picture).

 

There are other things to comment on.....................

Edited September 27, 2020 by Tony Wright
I can't count!

[Compound2632]

Is that a stand of oak or beech behind the cows?

[richard i]

Perhaps the other reason it might be 64 is the lack of dome cover in the months up to withdrawal. I would have thought many more photos if it had been going around for 18 months like that, or it would have been commented on in reference books as a long standing alteration. 
just my thoughts. 
richard 

[Willie Whizz]

Ahem ...

 

“Where North meets South,

  The bit between

Is NOTTINGHAM  

  The Midlands’ Queen!”

 

And to us the North starts at the Yorkshire border, and the South at the Leicestershire/Northamptonshire border.  Note also that although people, press  and Government talk of “The Midlands”, most folk from Derby eastward feel nothing in common with those from Birmingham - and vice versa to be fair; on the way out of that conurbation you will search in vain for a road sign pointing to the East Midlands or any of its cities until you’re nearly here. 
 

On the other hand we have settled a small Far Eastern ‘colony’ on Lincolnshire’s coast, centred around Skeggy. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Willie Whizz

[LNER4479]

This should end any argument as to where the North really is:

 

(fat chance!)

[queensquare]

The north starts at the M4, everybody knows that!

 

Jerry

[john new]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Returning to the theme of captioning, how about this image...........................?

 

 

What could be said about this?

 

Firstly, apologies for the poor-quality scan, but here goes..........

 

It's clearly Little Bytham and it's A3 60091 CAPTAIN CUTTLE on an Up express. 

 

.... cut.....................

 

The train? Nine cars-long, with two Thompsons and a Gresley along with the six BR Mk.1s. No destination/name boards, and no catering cars, so not a principal working. The Thompson FK carries the yellow stripe at cornice level (so it could be '64). A summer Saturday relief/extra? 60091 was a one-time standby A3 at Darlington, so is it substituting for a failed diesel? I cannot find this formation in any of my CWNs. 

 

.... cut.....................

 

Is there a definitive book with details of the various batches of Thompson coaches and in particular plans of where the roof vents were located versus the centre line?

 

I ask as some had no vents at all* and with the one's that do have vents, as with the picture above, they always look far more off-centre in pictures than on the available models.  The only book of drawings I have is the Ian Allen LMS/LNER set where they are shown on the c/line in the end elevation drawing. 

 

Logic says perhaps C/l over the vestibules and off-set over the compartments but if that is the case by how much. 

 

(*Saw one of those recently in a short video of a train leaving Nottingham Victoria.)

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Is that a stand of oak or beech behind the cows?

I don't know, Stephen.

 

The trees stand on what is now called The Spinney, a nature beauty spot for visitors. The trees there now are English deciduous (probably some in the picture are still there). There are certainly local oak and beech, and, in more recent times, ash and sycamore. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[john new]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Alan,

 

It's good that there are many different ways of looking at things. 

 

I suppose that because of my having a principal interest in the locos and trains in a picture I'm more aware of which way they're going. 

 

Among many books on my 'review list' is a quite visually-splendid volume on freight workings in the North of England (which includes the East Midlands, which I don't consider to be north at all - where we live now is in the East Mids, less than 100 miles from London; how can that be the North?). 

 

Anyway, included in this book are two shots at Trent. Now, this exciting location was a haunt of my trainspotting years (sometimes I didn't know where to look!), at which I spent many happy hours. Though the two pictures taken from the station are very good, the captions regarding the directions of the trains are as 'wrong' as is possible. Both are the opposite of what they should be. Thus the iron ore wagons are empty, as are the coal wagons. Both trains are returning to where they'll be next filled, not taking iron ore/coal to Staveley or London respectively.  What compounds the error is that Trent North Junction is accurately described.

 

Does this matter? To modellers, definitely. It would be like my running empty rakes of minerals southwards and full ones northward on Little Bytham. 

 

In another shot, the goods train in view is actually entering Doncaster, not leaving it. It's left Decoy Yard, but the caption is ambiguous to say the least. 

 

Do these 'proofing errors' matter? Should I mention them in my review? Do they matter? The book covers the years 1955 to 2018, so will be of wide interest. It's beautifully-presented and printed, with some images in colour and I've enjoyed reading it. However, I know the errors I've mentioned. Are there any others, related to locations I'm not familiar with?

 

Who'd be a proof-reader? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Re errors and reviewing, yes I think they do deserve a mention as some readers will be beginners and they need to know. It also might change the prospective purchase decision; surely the point of a review is to aid a possible buyer - is it worth the money asked?

 

From the other side of the fence where a book's editor has made a factual mistake  (be it through lack of knowledge or just a mistake) if they are made aware of it the master file for any subsequent print-run can be amended.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by john new
To make better sense.

[jamie92208]

45 minutes ago, queensquare said:

The north starts at the M4, everybody knows that!

 

Jerry

When the black John Player Special cigarettes were advertised on billboards, there used to be one at the end of the nortbound M1 in Leeds that had a picture of the cig packet and the caption, Black up North.

 

Jamie

Edited September 27, 2020 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

The trees stand on what is now called The Spinney, a nature beauty spot for visitors. The trees there now are English deciduous (probably some in the picture are still there). There are certainly local oak and beech, and, in more recent times, ash and sycamore. 

 

I'm glad you didn't treat my question as entirely frivolous; the point is that photographs taken for one purpose - to indulge an interest in trains - have the potential to be of use to, for instance, the landscape historian - especially if a particular spot is favoured by photographers over a century or more. Are there any similar photos of Little Bytham in Great Northern days, other than posed groups of staff?