Wright writes.....

[CF MRC]

54 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Great photo!

 

Not much room for any doubt on that one.

 

Tony

Lovely picture, wrong livery...

 

Tim

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

Lovely picture, wrong livery...

 

Tim

 

Indeed!

 

Were the splasher tops black or red in GCR days? I have seen both on models. That is hard to tell from photos, with the both being dark and early film often not being good at picking up red.

 

I think mine will be red.

 

Edit to add that there is a period colour illustration that shows the splasher tops green, so we have a choice of three possibilities!

Edited November 15, 2020 by t-b-g
To add content

[CF MRC]

It’ll all be down to Mr R, Tony. From a cleaning perspective, black is much easier. 
 

Tim

Edited November 15, 2020 by CF MRC

[Tony Wright]

I put the new J6 through its paces this morning...................

 

 

Obviously running with a borrowed tender, it took 40+ loaded coal wagons with ease.

 

A useful addition to LB's loco stud

[Woodcock29]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

Great photo!

 

Not much room for any doubt on that one.

 

Tony

That photo is one reason why my Valour has black tops to the splashers. That photo's in Martyn Welch's weathering book.

Andrew

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

It’ll all be down to Mr R, Tony. From a cleaning perspective, black is much easier. 
 

Tim

 

 

I think it is fairly clear that GCR splasher livery varied from class to class. Some clearly have green tops as you can see black and white lining on them. Others are a single dark colour, without any lining invisible. If they were red, there should be a possibility of spotting some vermillion lining on a very clean loco but there is no sign.

 

The main colour seems to come down to continuous or individual splashers.

 

I have just had another look at various websites (Messrs. Rathbone and Haywood) and at John Quick's book on GCR liveries and yes, I have changed my mind and will go for black!

[t-b-g]

10 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

That photo is one reason why my Valour has black tops to the splashers. That photo's in Martyn Welch's weathering book.

Andrew

 

I have long been convinced that on the B3, the splasher tops were black but have struggled to convince some others, who say that black and white photos are not conclusive proof. If anybody wants to argue that the one illustrated is not conclusive, I give up!

[Brassey]

55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Obviously running with a borrowed tender,

Nice to see some unfinished WIP.  I've taken to building the tenders first as, once the loco is done and running, I've found the mojo flagging to get the tender done.  That's why I'm now having to batch build 3 LNWR tenders to catch up.  From now on it's tender first

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, CF MRC said:

Lovely picture, wrong livery...

 

Tim

 

Good afternoon Tim,

 

it's the right livery for the conversation that Tony and I were having sometime back!

[Headstock]

57 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I have long been convinced that on the B3, the splasher tops were black but have struggled to convince some others, who say that black and white photos are not conclusive proof. If anybody wants to argue that the one illustrated is not conclusive, I give up!

 

Afternoon Tony,

 

I wouldn't want to encourage the mystic 'art' of defining colours from black and white images, it can result in a lot of baloney. However, the above splasher is certainly not green, nor reflected shadow or muck. Most black and white photographs are not conclusive proof, the above image is probably as close as you are going to get. I would be quite happy to go with it,  not that I doubted your original assertion concerning splasher tops, I thought that it was entirely possible.

[65179]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I have a photograph for you that I have been meaning to link for some time. I think that you will find it interesting with regard to splasher tops.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-pre-grouping-locomotives/GCR-locomotives/i-8nvvH75/A

 

 Yes, that's the photo I highlighted when this cropped up on the Valour thread:

 

I like Woodcock29 noted it in The Art of Weathering.

 

Simon

 

[Headstock]

5 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 Yes, that's the photo I highlighted when this cropped up on the Valour thread:

 

I like Woodcock29 noted it in The Art of Weathering.

 

Simon

 

 

Good afternoon Simon,

 

I would be interested in knowing if there is a date for the photo, I notice the locomotive has the LNER style lubricator pipe runs associated with such stuff as atomisers etc. Talking of G trains, the revised kit for the B7 arrived on my doorstep earlier this week. A major build for 2021 I think.

 

[65179]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

I think it is fairly clear that GCR splasher livery varied from class to class. Some clearly have green tops as you can see black and white lining on them. Others are a single dark colour, without any lining invisible. If they were red, there should be a possibility of spotting some vermillion lining on a very clean loco but there is no sign.

 

The main colour seems to come down to continuous or individual splashers.

 

I have just had another look at various websites (Messrs. Rathbone and Haywood) and at John Quick's book on GCR liveries and yes, I have changed my mind and will go for black!

 

It's not easy to say which is correct is it?

 

 

However if you model it in Armistice Day condition and can't see the reverser reflected in the splasher top then you do a disservice to the Gorton cleaners! Prof Watson has an excuse; representations we're made to the GN that Valour was sent back for the ceremonial working one year in an appropriate condition!

 

Simon

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by 65179

[65179]

11 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Simon,

 

I would be interested in knowing if there is a date for the photo, I notice the locomotive has the LNER style lubricator pipe runs associated with such stuff as atomisers etc. Talking of G trains, the revised kit for the B7 arrived on my doorstep earlier this week. A major build for 2021 I think.

 

 

Andrew,

 

 July 1937 is the information quoted for the view you are interested in. There's also a mucky 1938 view.

 

Don't say you're going to work on your B7 next year!  That might mean I'll have to start my 2mm one, and I already sound like enough of a GC 4-6-0 obsessed nutter without actually working on one!  It would be an opportunity for a grottiest B7 contest though.

 

Simon

[t-b-g]

23 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

It's not easy to say which is correct is it?

 

 

 

However if you model it in Armistice Day condition and can't see the reverser reflected in the splasher top then you do a disservice to the Gorton cleaners! Prof Watson has an excuse; representations we're made to the GN that Valour was sent back for the ceremonial working one year in an appropriate condition!

 

Simon

 

 

 

Mine will be in that sort of condition. Perhaps just a trace of oil on the slidebars and moving bits but otherwise you will see you face in it.

 

Malcolm Crawley got that sort of finish on his GCR Atlantic and his Pollitt 4-4-0 and I hope to be able to get something like that effect.

 

He was, from memory, 79 when he finished the Atlantic and 80 when he finished the 4-4-0, both scratchbuilt and painted by himself and both superb runners. It was the sort of finish that looks totally wrong for the 1950s/1960s apart from the very occasional special or ex works loco but pre WW1 it was fairly normal and although post WW1 standards dropped slightly, the GCR managed that look more often than not on their top passenger locos.

 

 

[LNER4479]

30 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Talking of G trains, the revised kit for the B7 arrived on my doorstep earlier this week. A major build for 2021 I think.

 

Really looking forward to see how you get on with it; I'm still trying to finish off the prototype this end.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Tony,

 

I wouldn't want to encourage the mystic 'art' of defining colours from black and white images, it can result in a lot of baloney. However, the above splasher is certainly not green, nor reflected shadow or muck. Most black and white photographs are not conclusive proof, the above image is probably as close as you are going to get. I would be quite happy to go with it,  not that I doubted your original assertion concerning splasher tops, I thought that it was entirely possible.

 

I would agree and I am very careful about only quoting examples where there can be no doubt. The vast majority of B & W photos can create a split view, where some people see it as being probably one colour and others see something else. I don't count those as evidence.

 

Just sometimes, you get a clean loco, in good lighting, and with the light falling just right on the loco and maybe a particular type of film that picks up the contrast well (experts on photography may be able to confirm or shoot that one down - I am not one!) and all doubt is removed.

 

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

 

Andrew,

 

 July 1937 is the information quoted for the view you are interested in. There's also a mucky 1938 view.

 

Don't say you're going to work on your B7 next year!  That might mean I'll have to start my 2mm one, and I already sound like enough of a GC 4-6-0 obsessed nutter without actually working on one!  It would be an opportunity for a grottiest B7 contest though.

 

Simon

 

Simon,

 

I thought that it may have been late thirties, very interesting.

 

I haven't decided one hundred percent on which locomotive will be modelled. There are a couple of options regarding services that brought the locomotives into, or through, Leicester in the three rear period I'm interested in. There are just as many options as regards the detailed appearance of the locomotives during the same period.

 

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Really looking forward to see how you get on with it; I'm still trying to finish off the prototype this end.

 

Apologies for not informing you of your packages safe arrival any sooner. I'm afraid I have been rather busy recently and it has been sitting in the quarantine box until today.

 

For various reasons, 2020 has not been my most productive year as far as railway modelling is concerned. As a result, I suspect you will complete your own build long before I start mine. Currently there are other projects that require completing or are a head of it in the cue. That said , sometime in 2021 is a realistic proposition, as a more normal modelling timetable should be possible.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Headstock
add,

[Willie Whizz]

8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I have a photograph for you that I have been meaning to link for some time. I think that you will find it interesting with regard to splasher tops.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-pre-grouping-locomotives/GCR-locomotives/i-8nvvH75/A

 

Phwoar!  Just ... PHWOARRRRR!!!!!!

[CF MRC]

I’ll trump you a:

That is how mine will be. 
 

Tim

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I would agree and I am very careful about only quoting examples where there can be no doubt. The vast majority of B & W photos can create a split view, where some people see it as being probably one colour and others see something else. I don't count those as evidence.

 

Just sometimes, you get a clean loco, in good lighting, and with the light falling just right on the loco and maybe a particular type of film that picks up the contrast well (experts on photography may be able to confirm or shoot that one down - I am not one!) and all doubt is removed.

 

 

I wouldn't call myself an 'expert' on photography, Tony, but I do know that black & white emulsions have (historically) been unable to render reds' tones correctly; frequently making them appear darker.

 

The magnificent photograph of VALOUR seen of late, might be a case in point - the buffer beam (which, I assume, is bright red) is the same tone as the smokebox and the splasher tops. It certainly shows that the splasher tops are not green.

 

It would certainly take a top painter/weatherer to give that cleaned, but grubby in parts, finish on a model. 

 

There's no doubt that the B3s looked magnificent in LNER green, but I'd venture to state (an entirely subjective view, I admit) that the full GC regalia was the most beautiful livery ever carried by any British loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Dunsignalling]

Another difficulty in attempting to infer colours from old monochrome photos is that the inability to render red tones proportionately to other colours varied between film brands, some being worse than others.

 

That can only be known if the source is an original negative. If it's a copy or a print, all bets are off, and all the more so if it's a plate coated with a home-brewed emulsion mixed by the photographer.

 

John

Edited November 15, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[robmcg]

25 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I wouldn't call myself an 'expert' on photography, Tony, but I do know that black & white emulsions have (historically) been unable to render reds' tones correctly; frequently making them appear darker.

 

The magnificent photograph of VALOUR seen of late, might be a case in point - the buffer beam (which, I assume, is bright red) is the same tone as the smokebox and the splasher tops. It certainly shows that the splasher tops are not green.

 

It would certainly take a top painter/weatherer to give that cleaned, but grubby in parts, finish on a model. 

 

There's no doubt that the B3s looked magnificent in LNER green, but I'd venture to state (an entirely subjective view, I admit) that the full GC regalia was the most beautiful livery ever carried by any British loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

How odd that a few  years ago I photo edited something along the lines of a GCR 9P  ?  B3...  just guessed the colours from old postcards and so on...

 

  and concocted it from bits of various models including Bachmann 4-4-0s which are very attractive.  1165 lasted until 1947, albeit somewhat modified.

 

 

It might not be modelling, but it's fun.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by robmcg
correction, addition

[Manxcat]

I have recently been told about a new type of point motor which has been receiving very good reviews and, in my humble opinion, is a great design. They can be sourced from DCC Train Automation, with whom I have no connection whatsoever, and like any other point motor can be operated direct with a DC supply or via a DCC decoder.

 

What I like best about them is the fact that the operating wire is inserted and held vertically in the moving part of the motor which travels from side to side when operated. There is no fulcrum point, as there is with a Tortoise motor for example, so no bending of the operating wire. A simple but very effective element of the design is that once the motor is screwed to the underside of the baseboard a single screw is loosened and the wire inserted to the correct height, then the screw tightened to hold the wire in place. So no more having to cut the operating wire above the point tie bar. 

 

Should the wire not be far enough to one side at that stage then the wire holder can also be loosened and moved right or left to the exact position for optimum performance. The motor can be adjusted to give 3mm, 6mm or 9mm movement. 

 

The motor incorporates a switch for changing frog polarity if required. If you need more than one changeover switch a motor with an attached, non-electrically operated relay is also available. 

 

Have a look at the following video to see just how good the MTB M1 and M5 point motors are.

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I wouldn't call myself an 'expert' on photography, Tony, but I do know that black & white emulsions have (historically) been unable to render reds' tones correctly; frequently making them appear darker.

 

The magnificent photograph of VALOUR seen of late, might be a case in point - the buffer beam (which, I assume, is bright red) is the same tone as the smokebox and the splasher tops. It certainly shows that the splasher tops are not green.

 

It would certainly take a top painter/weatherer to give that cleaned, but grubby in parts, finish on a model. 

 

There's no doubt that the B3s looked magnificent in LNER green, but I'd venture to state (an entirely subjective view, I admit) that the full GC regalia was the most beautiful livery ever carried by any British loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I had that discussion with Malcolm when he was building the Atlantic. Initially, he was going to do her in LNER 1930s black livery.

 

I just took him a photo (or several) of them in full GCR livery and asked him what sort of idiot would paint one black when it could look like that!

 

He couldn't resist.

 

There are many superb pre-grouping liveries but I would certainly put the GCR version at the top of my favourites list.