Popular Post Tony Wright Posted November 23, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) The latest SEF A4 is now just about complete and ready for going off to Geoff Haynes for painting. The hardest part of erecting the motion was cleaning up the lost-wax castings for the crossheads/slidebars. In fact, probably 90% of the time spent in putting them together. The lubricator drive was fudged from spare valve gear frets, and is probably over-sized. That said, when weathered it should be better, and it won't fall to bits (unlike some Hornby ones I've seen). It's also just attached to the chassis, not to any part to the body. The drive is my last DJH one with a Mashima motor, though the replacements are just as good. Some cleaning and tidying up necessary. On test at speed this afternoon. You'll have to take my word for it that she's scooting round LB at over a scale 90, hauling 14 metal kit-built bogies.......................... Easier going the other way - just 12 mainly plastic carriages. I think a fall plate and cab doors are called for............................... After I'd tested the A4, I put the two locos back which had been on the respective trains. HAPPY KNIGHT; built from a Crownline kit and painted by Ian Rathbone. GREAT EASTERN; built from a DJH kit and painted by Geoff Haynes (including hand-painting the coat of arms on the nameplate!). Panning shots like these are an interesting exercise, and it's a good job they're not on film. It takes at least 20 exposures before I'm happy with any! Edited November 23, 2020 by Tony Wright typo error 38 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 They may be more effort, but I do like a well composed panning shot of the real thing or models, as here. yours have come out very well. richard 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, richard i said: They may be more effort, but I do like a well composed panning shot of the real thing or models, as here. yours have come out very well. richard Thanks Richard, The panning shots are very much trial and error. The best seem to work with a shutter speed of about 80th of a second, with the iris wide open and the loco doing about a scale 90. The ASA is set at 400, and trust to luck and the shutter on burst-mode. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 I'm sure I've asked this before, but has anyone else tried model panning shots? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted November 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: I'm sure I've asked this before, but has anyone else tried model panning shots? This is one of mine from 2009, when the 'Retford Crew' on one of their periodic days out visited Pete Watermans Leamington Spa layout. Probably taken at around 1/30th F4'ish Manual single shot mode under plain fluorescent lighting. I did a number of these which were on previous versions of the forum but computer data corruptions has meant my copies are currently AWOL. If Kenton were still around he'd likely have a backed up copy of the forum! Edited November 23, 2020 by PMP moby auto spelling 10 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2020 There were a few panning shots around P1494, Tony, in August of last year. I posted this one: 1/25th of a second. Al 13 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 12 hours ago, TrevorP1 said: the grey primer does for BR wagon grey ...and for me, red primer is close enough for BR wagon bauxite. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 5 hours ago, St Enodoc said: ...and for me, red primer is close enough for BR wagon bauxite. Agreed John. I painted this Parkside O Gauge 12T van with Halfords red primer, dusting a light coat of Burgundy red at the same time (two-gun Tex!). It's a bit bright at source..................... But after Geoff Haynes toned it down........................ Excellent paint all round. Regards, Tony. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodcock29 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 15 hours ago, Tony Wright said: The latest SEF A4 is now just about complete Some cleaning and tidying up necessary. Tony, like some other modellers I've always thought the front didn't look quite right on the SE Finecast A4, as you've also indicated. I've just been comparing your great photos with photos of the prototype. Basically the bulbous look is because it appears like the front end is not long enough. Or you could say it's run into a solid concrete wall and flattened its nose! The furthest forward extensiom of the casing is too flat. The gap between the front of the cylinder cover and the front casing appears significantly too short supporting this view. Still as you say probably a good layout loco when flying around at 90mph with 14 kit built coaches behind it! So my own view is that the Hornby A4 body is far better and that aesthetics are very important when it comes to the face of a locomotive. Maybe I'll build some Comet chassis for mine? Or maybe the SE Finecast chassis which I know are available separately. I'll have to wait and see. Andrew 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 9 hours ago, Barry Ten said: There were a few panning shots around P1494, Tony, in August of last year. I posted this one: 1/25th of a second. Al I'll try slowing down the shutter speed next time, Al. I probably asked this before, but how fast (in scale) was your 'King' going? I usually have mine going past at over 90! Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said: Tony, like some other modellers I've always thought the front didn't look quite right on the SE Finecast A4, as you've also indicated. I've just been comparing your great photos with photos of the prototype. Basically the bulbous look is because it appears like the front end is not long enough. Or you could say it's run into a solid concrete wall and flattened its nose! The furthest forward extensiom of the casing is too flat. The gap between the front of the cylinder cover and the front casing appears significantly too short supporting this view. Still as you say probably a good layout loco when flying around at 90mph with 14 kit built coaches behind it! So my own view is that the Hornby A4 body is far better and that aesthetics are very important when it comes to the face of a locomotive. Maybe I'll build some Comet chassis for mine? Or maybe the SE Finecast chassis which I know are available separately. I'll have to wait and see. Andrew Good morning Andrew, It could be my building of it.................... I think it's fair to say that the Hornby A4 is more accurate in body-shape (however, there's something about the lower front end on this which doesn't entirely convince - why, I don't know). The boiler bands are also far too prominent (I thin them right down on the cast body shell). It's the mechanism which lets this down (look at the weird angle of the slidebars). I renumbered/renamed this one (ex-60031, I think), and we used it (as seen here) on Stoke Summit for a time, but it struggled on the heaviest trains. I subsequently sold it on. All the above said, Hornby's A4 is outstanding value for money. Regards, Tony. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodcock29 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Andrew, It could be my building of it.................... I think it's fair to say that the Hornby A4 is more accurate in body-shape (however, there's something about the lower front end on this which doesn't entirely convince - why, I don't know). The boiler bands are also far too prominent (I thin them right down on the cast body shell). It's the mechanism which lets this down (look at the weird angle of the slidebars). I renumbered/renamed this one (ex-60031, I think), and we used it (as seen here) on Stoke Summit for a time, but it struggled on the heaviest trains. I subsequently sold it on. All the above said, Hornby's A4 is outstanding value for money. Regards, Tony. I think the one thing that lets down the look marginally of the Hornby A4 body is the flatness of the cylinder covers, given they are meant to follow the curve of the cylinders more in the lower half. I've thought about how to improve this a number of times without a firm conclusion. Probably the only way to fix it is to make new covers that are attached to the cylinders and therefore not to the footplate. But you wouldn't want a gap at the footplate. I've usually realigned the sidebars on the few BR examples I have plus realigning the return crank into its forward leaning position. Of course on my five LNER versions the sidebars are not overly visible so I haven't needed to realign the sidebars. Interestingly on the very first one I got, Mallard the sidebars were perfectly aligned. Andrew Edited November 24, 2020 by Woodcock29 Added further comment 2 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 On 21/11/2020 at 17:32, micklner said: Nowt wrong with Hornby A4's other than when extreme pulling ability, is needed. Pre war Valve gear hardly visible as are the dreaded Bogie wheels !! Some of my Hornby A4 conversions most were were secondhand wrecks sourced via ebay. Most are based on the R2339 Mallard, including Merlin on which I removed the valances, much easier than repainting a BR version. Hornby have never made a current detail model of a post war Garter Blue A4. I just went back to look at these images again. Is there a livery or form (with or without valences) that an A4 doesn't look stunning? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Northmoor said: I just went back to look at these images again. Is there a livery or form (with or without valences) that an A4 doesn't look stunning? Apple green with a solid black front end did them no favours. Tim 1 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) Looking at the real A4, the Hornby A4 and the SEF A4, it really does show just how much better the Hornby A4 is, so I would certainly stand by my earlier suggestion that a Hornby body on a new mechanism might be the best way to get a top quality loco that will perform on the heaviest trains. It is only really the slab sided cylinder on the Hornby one that needs attention to make it a real winner. Another odd thing about the SEF one is the way the opening doors on the front are indicated. The lower three front lamp irons should all be in alignment across from side to side and should also be well below the line of the door hinges. That doesn't seem possible on the model and I note that all the examples illustrated have the centre lamp iron lower that the outer two. For most people, perhaps that wouldn't matter but to somebody who makes such a big thing of lamps and lamp irons, I am surprised that got past scrutiny without being corrected. The SEF model illustrated also lacks the curve under below the line of the piston rod on the cylinders yet the cylinder covers are not attached to the body. I can't see any reason why they can't be curved properly if you have them split from the body. It ought to be possible, with a bit of care, to marry up the top line of the cylinder cover with the bottom line of the footplate to leave an almost invisible join. I have seen (or more correctly haven't seen!) baseboard joints done so neatly as to be almost invisible so it should be possible on a loco. I am not sure about the balance weights either. The two cast in Romford ones are roughly the right shape and almost in the right place but the one on the centre wheel shouldn't be that much of a crescent shape, unless they varied and I haven't seen that variety. It has a much flatter inside curve, almost straight. I would agree with the comments about the look of the real loco. So far ahead of its time when new and even now it looks more like a train from 2020 than one from the 1930s. The only livery that really spoiled the looks was the one in green and the vertical line to a big black smokebox. Whoever thought that one up and why? A4s are way too modern for me but if I wanted one, layout loco or not, I don't think I would be rushing to get a SEF kit. Edited November 24, 2020 by t-b-g Autocorrect changed too to to! 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Northmoor said: I just went back to look at these images again. Is there a livery or form (with or without valences) that an A4 doesn't look stunning? I'm not a great fan of this livery either, though it probably looks better on an A4 than anything else... 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Chamby said: I'm not a great fan of this livery either, though it probably looks better on an A4 than anything else... Having had the SEF A4 just about 'assassinated', perhaps some critical comments might be made about the Hornby model above. The centre lamp iron is lower on this one as well. If the lining accurately follows the shape of the valance, then something is clearly wrong above the slidebar supports. The LH front buffer is pointing at the sky. The tender rides too high up, with the obvious misalignment of the vertical handrails and those on the cab, plus the front cover being higher than the cab roof. The wrong angles of both the slidebars and the return crank have been mentioned before. As have the toy-like bogie wheels. The expansion link is also too long. The leading front guard irons should be attached to the frames, not the bogie. I'd not really be so 'critical' of a model, but fair is fair....................... The Hornby A4 is still an excellent starting point, however. Regards, Tony. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Tony Wright said: I'll try slowing down the shutter speed next time, Al. I probably asked this before, but how fast (in scale) was your 'King' going? I usually have mine going past at over 90! Regards, Tony. Quite a bit less than 90, Tony, as it's not geared for really fast running - probably more like 60 I'd imagine. I can't remember if I hand-held the camera or panned it on the tripod. Al Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 21 hours ago, Tony Wright said: GREAT EASTERN; built from a DJH kit and painted by Geoff Haynes (including hand-painting the coat of arms on the nameplate!). Lovely modelling as ever, but the gap and empty space between loco and train spoils the scene a little to my eyes. Perhaps I'm just used to tension lock and Rapidos filling the space. Could the gap be reduced and some dummy brake and steam heating pipes added? Steven B. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, t-b-g said: Looking at the real A4, the Hornby A4 and the SEF A4, it really does show just how much better the Hornby A4 is, so I would certainly stand by my earlier suggestion that a Hornby body on a new mechanism might be the best way to get a top quality loco that will perform on the heaviest trains. It is only really the slab sided cylinder on the Hornby one that needs attention to make it a real winner. Another odd thing about the SEF one is the way the opening doors on the front are indicated. The lower three front lamp irons should all be in alignment across from side to side and should also be well below the line of the door hinges. That doesn't seem possible on the model and I note that all the examples illustrated have the centre lamp iron lower that the outer two. For most people, perhaps that wouldn't matter but to somebody who makes such a big thing of lamps and lamp irons, I am surprised that got past scrutiny without being corrected. The SEF model illustrated also lacks the curve under below the line of the piston rod on the cylinders yet the cylinder covers are not attached to the body. I can't see any reason why they can't be curved properly if you have them split from the body. It ought to be possible, with a bit of care, to marry up the top line of the cylinder cover with the bottom line of the footplate to leave an almost invisible join. I have seen (or more correctly haven't seen!) baseboard joints done so neatly as to be almost invisible so it should be possible on a loco. I am not sure about the balance weights either. The two cast in Romford ones are roughly the right shape and almost in the right place but the one on the centre wheel shouldn't be that much of a crescent shape, unless they varied and I haven't seen that variety. It has a much flatter inside curve, almost straight. I would agree with the comments about the look of the real loco. So far ahead of its time when new and even now it looks more like a train from 2020 than one from the 1930s. The only livery that really spoiled the looks was the one in green and the vertical line to a big black smokebox. Whoever thought that one up and why? A4s are way too modern for me but if I wanted one, layout loco or not, I don't think I would be rushing to get a SEF kit. I believe the Smokebox was taken back to first Boiler Band, as they thought the Green paint would not be able to stand the extra heat from the Smokbox during running . Obviously if that was the thinking?, later version followed the usual curve. Edited November 24, 2020 by micklner 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 43 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Having had the SEF A4 just about 'assassinated', perhaps some critical comments might be made about the Hornby model above. The centre lamp iron is lower on this one as well. If the lining accurately follows the shape of the valance, then something is clearly wrong above the slidebar supports. The LH front buffer is pointing at the sky. The tender rides too high up, with the obvious misalignment of the vertical handrails and those on the cab, plus the front cover being higher than the cab roof. The wrong angles of both the slidebars and the return crank have been mentioned before. As have the toy-like bogie wheels. The expansion link is also too long. The leading front guard irons should be attached to the frames, not the bogie. I'd not really be so 'critical' of a model, but fair is fair....................... The Hornby A4 is still an excellent starting point, however. Regards, Tony. I think the lining above the cylinders and slidebars is poorly applied, rather than the model being the wrong shape. The majority of the things you mention would be corrected either fairly easily or by a replacement mechanism. The big difference for me is the cut out in the valance above the bogie. The Hornby one looks right. I can't see how you can get the SEF one looking right without major surgery. To be fair to SEF and to Hornby, that shape must have been a nightmare to get right in model form. I wouldn't know where to start with no flat footplate and curves all over the place. That isn't my favourite A4 livery but the loco just about gets away with it! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Chamby said: I'm not a great fan of this livery either, though it probably looks better on an A4 than anything else... Good afternoon Phil, I don't think Hornby have much of a handle on accurate colour. I think the livery should look more like this. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, micklner said: I believe the Smokebox was taken back to first Boiler Band, as they thought the Green paint would not be able to stand the extra heat from the Smokbox during running . Obviuosly if that was the thinking?, later version followed the usual curve. Yet they managed it with the grey and the blue paints earlier. Perhaps some paint expert will be able to say if green is worse when heated, than those colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, t-b-g said: I think the lining above the cylinders and slidebars is poorly applied, rather than the model being the wrong shape. The majority of the things you mention would be corrected either fairly easily or by a replacement mechanism. The big difference for me is the cut out in the valance above the bogie. The Hornby one looks right. I can't see how you can get the SEF one looking right without major surgery. To be fair to SEF and to Hornby, that shape must have been a nightmare to get right in model form. I wouldn't know where to start with no flat footplate and curves all over the place. That isn't my favourite A4 livery but the loco just about gets away with it! Looks like the body is damaged to me . Possibly been forced on to the chassis and the Valve gear is pushing the Valance upwards, hence the lining is mishapen. The Buffer is part of a seperate front section which is a common failure on Hornby A4's , obviously loose as well. Both easy fixes compared to the same problem on whitemetal bodies. The Finecast version needs some decent bottom washout plugs as well, not the holes in the sides as portrayed. You can buy a etch via ebay for the correct shape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Steven B said: Lovely modelling as ever, but the gap and empty space between loco and train spoils the scene a little to my eyes. Perhaps I'm just used to tension lock and Rapidos filling the space. Could the gap be reduced and some dummy brake and steam heating pipes added? Steven B. Good afternoon Steven, You're right. I don't know why the gap is too big. I'll shorten the hook. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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