Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 The roof edge formed a pretty neat joint for most of the length but it does curl up a small amount as it approaches two of the end corners......

What was the 'additional persuasion' you used? That phrase conjures up bright lights and veiled threats - I hope no-one was injured? I wonder if the longer length of this coach - compared to your six-wheelers - with its greater number of fixing points helps to give a better join?

 

It was very fortunate that I built my vehicles including a modification that allowed me to separate the body from the floor, giving access to the interior at any desired time. That makes it easier and less nerve-wracking to unclip the roof in a controlled and non-destructive way, by squeezing the gutters from the outside, levering gently at the clips from inside, and working a lever or spacer into the joint from the outside, starting at one end of one side and working along the body.

I found that even after carefully filing just the irregularities off the raw printed shapes of the top of the side and the under-edge of the roof, ensuring that they could meet "flush", the clips simply weren't enough to nip the gap down tightly. In at least one case the roof was also showing the "raised ends and low middle" tendency, although I had carefully removed anything from the tops of the body ends that might push the roof ends up. Manipulating the roof to a "corrected" shape after softening in hot water and then "setting" the shape in cold water failed to overcome the difficulties.

I resorted to using some chunky square-bar plastic (5 or 6mm section I think) stuck to the underside of the roof along its centre line to resist any sagging, and added plastic shim pieces to the bar so that it sat in contact with the tops of the compartment partitions too, ensuring that the roof couldn't possibly sink in the middle. I then held the edges down and very carefully super-glued them to the tops of the sides - after fitting the glazing in its slots of course!

[grahame]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Nice Gas works. Don't forget the pipework, miles of it, and loads of grot & stink.

 

Wigan Gasworks, just after closure, and about to be demolished, 1973 as the O/H masts can just be seen in Wigan NW station. That's the town centre in the background, very close.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't add much grass - very little in / around a gas works - weeds are ok, just about clinging to life though !!!

 

I did my first day at work here in 1969 just before it closed.  The place certainly had "atmosphere" !!

 

Brit15

 

Thanks.

 

It's no longer a gas works as the modelled period is after the retort houses and other production buildings were knocked down with a large school (the regional training centre), van and lorry petrol/diesel station and staff car park built on it, so is termed a gasholder station.

 

 

My model is only based on it but as can be seen from the plan above is just the front main road entrance. The modelled section is very small part of it and the site went back behind the backscene long way with three more holders (one has already gone on the plan above) and all the large pipes around where the distributing engineers department (DED) was located. In fact the works site went back further to include the area marked as industrial estate up to Verney Road which was where the canal ran and west back to the Old Kent Road. On the corner at the Old Kent Road was the Livesey institute for the workers where you could have a game of snooker and couple of beers at lunchtime. It was quicker to walk there along the Old Kent Road. The institute was still there when I first went there in the mid 70s but was later sold  and knocked down. They made a replacement bar above the canteen just behind the second largest holder.

 

Nonetheless I have included a little of the large diameter holder supply pipework but it's difficult to see:

 

 

and, of course, other grot and pipework still to be made and included. I certainly recall the smell as we had to walk around between the holders to get to the site canteen. There was a little grass, a triangle in front of the district and area offices where there was a statue of George Livesey, engineer, industrialist and philanthropist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Livesey

 

 

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

Regarding the chimneys for the J6 these are the other two that came with the kit, I think the one I have chosen is correct for the loco I’m basing it on. 

 

Also, are they the sniffing valves? That’s the only thing that’s left in the kit. 

Hi Jesse,

that other casting looks like the fire door handle to me.  

Frank

[APOLLO]

After coal carbonisation ended in the late 60's / early 70's most former gasworks became "Holder Stations", as the gas holders were already in place, as well as the associated pressure management equipment, and of course the low and medium pressure gas mains radiated out from them to supply local districts. In the 60's lots of new high pressure welded steel Natural Gas mains were laid to inter connect such locations. A rather complicated subject.

 

As far as model railways go, Grahames model & proposals are very realistic. Many former Gas Works sites became  holders with a pressure reduction compound (more pipework !!), some were also local depots for distribution / service etc (cue gas vans, offices, stacks of yellow plastic pipe awaiting laying). Lots of modelling potential even up to the present day.

 

Most (if not all) holders have now gone. Expensive to maintain and getting life expired they have been replaced by storing high pressure gas in the actual underground grid pipelines, new interconnections etc - all unseen and un-modelable. Even the super dooper ultra modern (well in the 70's) LNG (liquid natural gas) plants are / have gone (Partington Manchester in particular - this was rail connected with some LNG rail traffic up to the 80's). 

 

As to overhead pipes - don't worry about which pipe goes where - many's the time in my career I have gazed at such pipes, modification plans in hand, muttering "where the hell does that pipe go !!!!!!!

 

Peter Denny with his Buckingham layouts had a gas works at every station, and made a mighty fine job of them he did - if a tad too neat and tidy !!!

 

Brit15

[Chuffer Davies]

2 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Regarding the chimneys for the J6 these are the other two that came with the kit, I think the one I have chosen is correct for the loco I’m basing it on. 

 

Also, are they the sniffing valves? That’s the only thing that’s left in the kit. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Chuffer Davies
Duplicate entry

[t-b-g]

37 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

After coal carbonisation ended in the late 60's / early 70's most former gasworks became "Holder Stations", as the gas holders were already in place, as well as the associated pressure management equipment, and of course the low and medium pressure gas mains radiated out from them to supply local districts. In the 60's lots of new high pressure welded steel Natural Gas mains were laid to inter connect such locations. A rather complicated subject.

 

As far as model railways go, Grahames model & proposals are very realistic. Many former Gas Works sites became  holders with a pressure reduction compound (more pipework !!), some were also local depots for distribution / service etc (cue gas vans, offices, stacks of yellow plastic pipe awaiting laying). Lots of modelling potential even up to the present day.

 

Most (if not all) holders have now gone. Expensive to maintain and getting life expired they have been replaced by storing high pressure gas in the actual underground grid pipelines, new interconnections etc - all unseen and un-modelable. Even the super dooper ultra modern (well in the 70's) LNG (liquid natural gas) plants are / have gone (Partington Manchester in particular - this was rail connected with some LNG rail traffic up to the 80's). 

 

As to overhead pipes - don't worry about which pipe goes where - many's the time in my career I have gazed at such pipes, modification plans in hand, muttering "where the hell does that pipe go !!!!!!!

 

Peter Denny with his Buckingham layouts had a gas works at every station, and made a mighty fine job of them he did - if a tad too neat and tidy !!!

 

Brit15

 

Don't forget that in 1907 the gasworks were still pretty new and hadn't had time to deteriorate.

 

 

[grahame]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

Most (if not all) holders have now gone. Expensive to maintain and getting life expired they have been replaced by storing high pressure gas in the actual underground grid pipelines, new interconnections etc - all unseen and un-modelable. Even the super dooper ultra modern (well in the 70's) LNG (liquid natural gas) plants are / have gone (Partington Manchester in particular - this was rail connected with some LNG rail traffic up to the 80's). 

 

As to overhead pipes - don't worry about which pipe goes where - many's the time in my career I have gazed at such pipes, modification plans in hand, muttering "where the hell does that pipe go !!!!!!!

 

 

Here's a bit more gas about the industry, that might help with modelling.

 

The late 60s/early 70s was a busy and hugely changing time for the gas industry with 'conversion' - the need to visit all homes with a gas supply to check and convert the appliances to burn natural gas - and the closure of towns gas works. The huge works at East Greenwich continued to produce a gas known as SNG (synthetic natural gas) which was stored in huge cylinders lying on their sides and one of the workers managed to build himself a concrete ocean going yacht there which had to be craned out of the works and on to the Thames. That'd make an interesting modelled scene - a concrete yacht in a gas works

 

There were often huge diameter pipes that, as well as not seeming to go anywhere, didn't even appear connected to anything. There seemed to be a lot at Aylestone Road, Leicester site (from what I remember when I worked/visited there) as well as here at Battersea:

 

 

Although many holders are now dismantled some have been protected by being listed. The one (No.13) at the Old Kent Road, although decommissioned, is grade II listed as it was once was the largest in the world. It was built in 1879-81, was 160ft tall with a diameter of over 210ft, could hold 5.5m cubic feet of gas and had 22 wrought iron standards (columns).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by grahame

[Woodcock29]

2 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Regarding the chimneys for the J6 these are the other two that came with the kit, I think the one I have chosen is correct for the loco I’m basing it on. 

 

Also, are they the sniffing valves? That’s the only thing that’s left in the kit. 

Thanks for posting this photo Jesse. You've already fitted the snifting valve behind the chimney in the photos of you model. Not sure what those other bits are on the w/m sprue. 

 

The taller chimney in this photo looks to me like its meant to be the version suited to most J6s through the 1920-30s but it doesn't look quite right perhaps its too fat? It is a built up chimney and should be 1' 11 1/4" tall (ie about 7.7 mm)  but to me looks too fat. The first 15 J6s, according to Yeadon, were built with plain cast chimneys with a deep cap and were 1' 11 7/8", so 5/8" taller - I suspect that is the chimney you have fitted to your J6 (so should be about 8 mm tall), although in the photo of you model it looks taller than that. These cast chimneys were replaced by the built up chimneys through the 1920s.  During WW2 the built up chimneys were replaced by cast chimneys 1' 7 1/2" tall (and slightly reduced cab height) to give wider route availability during WW2.

 

The LRM cast brass chimney is 7.2 mm and Graeme King's resin chimney is 7.6 mm so that is pretty close to what it should be for the 1920s-30s. I know we're talking fractions of a mm but when you look at the photos they seem taller than the information tells us so we don't want to be fitting chimney's that are too short in my view.  

 

The short chimney in the photo above is for the WW2 and later period. There are good sectioned drawings of the J6 chimneys in John Crawley' s The London and North Eastern Railway in Focus 2001.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tony W  - I know it wasn't that long ago we had a debate on the j6 chimney here!

 

If only I could find the time to build my LRM and King J6s! Too many other modelling projects to do first! And in fact the King J6 was originally going to be converted to a J1 but now I hear that Frank Davies is doing an etched brass J1 for Clayton I think I'll wait and hopefully be able to get one from LRM in due course.

 

Andrew

 

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

It was very fortunate that I built my vehicles including a modification that allowed me to separate the body from the floor, giving access to the interior at any desired time. That makes it easier and less nerve-wracking to unclip the roof in a controlled and non-destructive way, by squeezing the gutters from the outside, levering gently at the clips from inside, and working a lever or spacer into the joint from the outside, starting at one end of one side and working along the body.

I found that even after carefully filing just the irregularities off the raw printed shapes of the top of the side and the under-edge of the roof, ensuring that they could meet "flush", the clips simply weren't enough to nip the gap down tightly. In at least one case the roof was also showing the "raised ends and low middle" tendency, although I had carefully removed anything from the tops of the body ends that might push the roof ends up. Manipulating the roof to a "corrected" shape after softening in hot water and then "setting" the shape in cold water failed to overcome the difficulties.

I resorted to using some chunky square-bar plastic (5 or 6mm section I think) stuck to the underside of the roof along its centre line to resist any sagging, and added plastic shim pieces to the bar so that it sat in contact with the tops of the compartment partitions too, ensuring that the roof couldn't possibly sink in the middle. I then held the edges down and very carefully super-glued them to the tops of the sides - after fitting the glazing in its slots of course!

Ah, OK, that's sounds like a pretty comprehensive re-working. It didn't occur to me to look at separating the body and floor and it looked like such a solid piece but I can see how that would have allowed for a much better roof situation: thanks for the details Graeme. If I build another one I'll follow that scheme...

[Jesse Sim]

7 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Thanks for posting this photo Jesse. You've already fitted the snifting valve behind the chimney in the photos of you model. Not sure what those other bits are on the w/m sprue. 

 

The taller chimney in this photo looks to me like its meant to be the version suited to most J6s through the 1920-30s but it doesn't look quite right perhaps its too fat? It is a built up chimney and should be 1' 11 1/4" tall (ie about 7.7 mm)  but to me looks too fat. The first 15 J6s, according to Yeadon, were built with plain cast chimneys with a deep cap and were 1' 11 7/8", so 5/8" taller - I suspect that is the chimney you have fitted to your J6 (so should be about 8 mm tall), although in the photo of you model it looks taller than that. These cast chimneys were replaced by the built up chimneys through the 1920s.  During WW2 the built up chimneys were replaced by cast chimneys 1' 7 1/2" tall (and slightly reduced cab height) to give wider route availability during WW2.

 

The LRM cast brass chimney is 7.2 mm and Graeme King's resin chimney is 7.6 mm so that is pretty close to what it should be for the 1920s-30s. I know we're talking fractions of a mm but when you look at the photos they seem taller than the information tells us so we don't want to be fitting chimney's that are too short in my view.  

 

The short chimney in the photo above is for the WW2 and later period. There are good sectioned drawings of the J6 chimneys in John Crawley' s The London and North Eastern Railway in Focus 2001.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tony W  - I know it wasn't that long ago we had a debate on the j6 chimney here!

 

If only I could find the time to build my LRM and King J6s! Too many other modelling projects to do first! And in fact the King J6 was originally going to be converted to a J1 but now I hear that Frank Davies is doing an etched brass J1 for Clayton I think I'll wait and hopefully be able to get one from LRM in due course.

 

Andrew

 

So wait what are things called behind the dome? I’m so confused.

 

I ended up finding what they are out of a bunch of bits I got off eBay. So she is now fitted correctly as the photo shows. Regarding chimneys, again, the one I have placed on the loco is the one that looks the most similar to the photo of the engine in buikding, so I’m going to keep it. 

[Brit70053]

Hi Jesse, the parts on top of the firebox in front of the cab, but behind the dome are the safety valves. I'm not familiar with the J6, but I'm wondering if the mystery part you have left on the sprue could be a whistle, as I don't see one on your model.

Very well done with your build, great feeling when it moves successfully under its own power for the first time.

Congratulations,

 

                              John

 

[APOLLO]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Don't forget that in 1907 the gasworks were still pretty new and hadn't had time to deteriorate.

 

 

 

Yes they were new(ish) back then - good point. I remember making a TT gauge gasworks using an Airfix engine shed back in the 60's, using Peter Denny's photos in the Railway Modeler (The Denny Special) - a long time ago !!

 

Wigan (and other) gas works were living on borrowed time even in the early 60's as new "High pressure reforming plants" were built here in the North West (and elsewhere) using PFD (Petroleum Fuel Distillate) as feedstock. The four in the NW were at Liverpool, Warrington, Partington and Lostock Hall (Preston) - the last being rail connected receiving PFD by 100T rail tanks (from Stanlow). PFD pipelines (also from Stanlow) connected the others. Just as they went into production Natural Gas & conversion came along so those new plants also closed by 1975 or so. They made a substitute coal gas, so conversion to Natural gas was still needed - I could write a book about that !!

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

10 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Here's a bit more gas about the industry, that might help with modelling.

 

The late 60s/early 70s was a busy and hugely changing time for the gas industry with 'conversion' - the need to visit all homes with a gas supply to check and convert the appliances to burn natural gas - and the closure of towns gas works. The huge works at East Greenwich continued to produce a gas known as SNG (synthetic natural gas) which was stored in huge cylinders lying on their sides and one of the workers managed to build himself a concrete ocean going yacht there which had to be craned out of the works and on to the Thames. That'd make an interesting modelled scene - a concrete yacht in a gas works

 

There were often huge diameter pipes that, as well as not seeming to go anywhere, didn't even appear connected to anything. There seemed to be a lot at Aylestone Road, Leicester site (from what I remember when I worked/visited there) as well as here at Battersea:

 

 

Although many holders are now dismantled some have been protected by being listed. The one (No.13) at the Old Kent Road, although decommissioned, is grade II listed as it was once was the largest in the world. It was built in 1879-81, was 160ft tall with a diameter of over 210ft, could hold 5.5m cubic feet of gas and had 22 wrought iron standards (columns).

   

Good news that a holder is to be preserved, horrible things to climb / work on.

 

The pipework compound in your photo is typical - though here undergoing  decommissioning. The pipework here was low pressure / holder related rather than  high pressure. Such a site was quite common next to gas holders, though some were remote - so it would be quite OK to model a holder without the compound or even much pipework.

 

Some more gas works info, memories, photos here

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105787-railways-around-wigan-leigh-the-surrounding-areas/

 

Brit15

[Richard E]

All this talk of gas holders has reminded me that we still have one where I live albeit I wouldn't know the correct technical term for this type. Excuse the horrid quality picture but it is pinched from an on line source. The area in the foreground is now a car park, it used to be the site of the city Coal Gas Works. It never had any rail access.

 

 

And this is the same area during redevelopment in the late 1970's. The major part of the gas works has gone, the area to the right of the gas holder is where the works were and is now the car park.

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Richard E

[grahame]

18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

   

Good news that a holder is to be preserved, horrible things to climb / work on.

 

 

Yes, I used to hear the stories in the changing rooms as many of the Metrogas football team I played for were gasholder maintenance engineers. Oddly, any of the staff on the OKR site could arrange for a guided trip up the large holder although I never went. But here's a recent account with pics of climbing it:  https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/gas-holder-13-old-kent-rd-south-london-june-2014.90418/

 

However, I did visit just about all the holder stations in the South East including Rochester, Ramsgate, Brighton and Southampton as well many around the country such as Swindon, Leicester, Stockport and Leeds. And we used to be able to get access to the famous Oval gasholder station to park when attending cricket matches at the Oval - the gas board had reserved seating/membership for the staff to use to 'entertain' clients. I just wish I'd taken photos.

 

 

 

[Woodcock29]

56 minutes ago, Brit70053 said:

Hi Jesse, the parts on top of the firebox in front of the cab, but behind the dome are the safety valves. I'm not familiar with the J6, but I'm wondering if the mystery part you have left on the sprue could be a whistle, as I don't see one on your model.

Very well done with your build, great feeling when it moves successfully under its own power for the first time.

Congratulations,

 

                              John

 

It's clear we're starting to confuse Jesse. 

 

The snifting valve is the small fitting directly behind the chimney - you've fitted that so end of story for that. Then there is the dome followed by the safety valves. As Tony G suggests it looks like the kit included two whistles instead of one and you have fitted those in place of the safety valves.

 

As you said earlier you need to look in the box for the safety valves. Plus you then need to fit one whistle at the front centre of the cab roof.

 

Andrew

[grahame]

2 minutes ago, Richard E said:

All this talk of gas holders has reminded me that we still have one where I live albeit I wouldn't know the correct technical term for this type.

 

Looks like a partially above ground water tank, spiral guided type with two lifts, but I'm no expert - just an observer. My specialised product was domestic gas central heating.

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

While we are talking about gas and the history of it. There is a collection of Gas holders around the Bow Locks/ Cody Dock area in East London. I believe that these are also listed. There is also a war memorial to gas workers that was moved here when one of the other gas works in East London was demolished. A cast plate on one of the structures has a date of 1872,

[Jesse Sim]

31 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

It's clear we're starting to confuse Jesse. 

 

The snifting valve is the small fitting directly behind the chimney - you've fitted that so end of story for that. Then there is the dome followed by the safety valves. As Tony G suggests it looks like the kit included two whistles instead of one and you have fitted those in place of the safety valves.

 

As you said earlier you need to look in the box for the safety valves. Plus you then need to fit one whistle at the front centre of the cab roof.

 

Andrew

All of the above have been fixed, I’ll post a photo tomorrow morning. 

[polybear]

40 minutes ago, grahame said:

But here's a recent account with pics of climbing it:  https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/gas-holder-13-old-kent-rd-south-london-june-2014.90418/

 

 

I felt queasy just looking at the pictures.  Not in a million years....

[Tony Wright]

Since J6s seem to be rather popular......................

 

 

A further view of the latest Nu-Cast/SEF one; riding on its scratch-built chassis. It's now complete with guard irons and balance weights, but I await its tender to build.

 

Since I'm well in credit with Geoff Haynes, I'll ask him to paint this.

 

 

Seen recently, this 521 Series J6 is now with Geoff for weathering, replicating an image in a Keith Pirt softback on Retford (I painted it). 

 

 

 

And an original Nu-Cast J6, shunting on LB. 

 

 

A further SEF/Nu-Cast J6, this one towing a London Road symmetrical wheelbase tender (the tender provided by SEF is the least-common type behind a J6). 

 

Painted (by me) but not yet weathered............

 

 

Now weathered (by me). J6s were rarely gloss black.

 

All these examples have the shorter/shortest chimney, appropriate for BR days.

 

 

[APOLLO]

Lovely little locos the J6, both the prototype & Tony's model(s). I wonder did any get across the Pennines to work on the (ex) LNER / Cheshire Lines ?

 

Brit15

[Brit70053]

3 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

It's clear we're starting to confuse Jesse. 

 

The snifting valve is the small fitting directly behind the chimney - you've fitted that so end of story for that. Then there is the dome followed by the safety valves. As Tony G suggests it looks like the kit included two whistles instead of one and you have fitted those in place of the safety valves.

 

As you said earlier you need to look in the box for the safety valves. Plus you then need to fit one whistle at the front centre of the cab roof.

 

Andrew

Thanks Woodcock29, perhaps I should have said " the parts-----should be the safety valves".  When I've looked at an enlargement of Jesse's picture the items fitted do indeed seem to be whistles, which blows my idea that the unidentified part on the whitemetal sprue could be a whistle.

I might have known better than try to help with my 666th post on RMWeb, (no I'm not superstitious) especially on this esteemed thread, but still, its a fine effort by Jesse and I'm sure he'll soon be posting photos of the model with all these items correctly located . 

 

Regards,

 

                 John

Edited November 26, 2020 by Brit70053
Correction

[65179]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Lovely little locos the J6, both the prototype & Tony's model(s). I wonder did any get across the Pennines to work on the (ex) LNER / Cheshire Lines ?

 

Brit15

 

Yes they did pre-Woodhead electrification at least.  If you look at the Shed Bash uk website you'll see the odd one still popping up at Trafford Park/Gorton in the 1940s and early 1950s. For example, in 1950 Colwick would occasionally still use one of its J6s instead of the usual J39 on the 8.22 pm Deansgate-Colwick goods (a service running in part via ex-Midland metals making use of former GN running powers).  64194 and 64212 were recorded by the signalman at Didsbury.  E.M. Johnson's Manchester Central book has an example of a J6 working on the Glazebrook-Godley route (3610 in 1946 on its way to Liverpool) having come over Woodhead.

 

Simon

Edited November 26, 2020 by 65179

[gr.king]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Ah, OK, that's sounds like a pretty comprehensive re-working. It didn't occur to me to look at separating the body and floor and it looked like such a solid piece but I can see how that would have allowed for a much better roof situation: thanks for the details Graeme. If I build another one I'll follow that scheme...

The bodies and floors come as separate parts for the six-wheelers, but with no provision for attaching one to the other by anything more than the location of the body sides/ ends in a rebate around the edges of the floor, presumably intended for permanent gluing. I made arrangements for discreet use of small screws or plain "slide in, slide out" pins in the corners instead of using glue.

Is it all in one lump in the Howlden bogie vehicles?