Wright writes.....

[t-b-g]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd go a bit further back. The principal English railways that didn't already paint all their locomotives black went over to black for goods engines before the end of Edward VII's reign, in one case with no lining whatsoever. The 1890s were the Golden Age of British railways.

 

I think different companies had different "golden eras". I could argue that my favourite, the GCR, didn't really blossom until Robinson took over. The original D9 (GCR 11B) is about as lovely a balanced deign as anybody ever came up with. The proportions are perfect.

 

To me, the high point on the Midland for loco appearance was probably a bit earlier, under Kirtley and Johnson.

 

So maybe our own personal preferences, in terms of company and designer, colour our judgement of when the "high point" was.

 

I know many quote 1937 as the "high water mark" and others will say it was when the Deltics appeared!

 

 

 

[drmditch]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd go a bit further back. The principal English railways that didn't already paint all their locomotives black went over to black for goods engines before the end of Edward VII's reign, in one case with no lining whatsoever. The 1890s were the Golden Age of British railways.

 

The NER changed to lined black for goods locomotives in 1904 (according to the estimable Mr Hoole). This means that the first T 0-8-0s were outshopped in full Saxony Green.

I am working on one now, but don't know if I have the courage to attempt that.

 

It would work well in the context of a 'what if one had made it to preservation' scenario.

[Leander]

These are the photos that Tom used to base the weathering on. The earliest date given is 1957 and the latest is possibly 1963 or 64.

[jwealleans]

Many years ago, Buckjumper, formerly of this parish, had either a thread or part of a thread devoted to showing that Edwardian locos could be as scruffy as those of any other era.

 

I didn't have the wit to download the photos before the old RMWeb vanished, but he certainly found plenty of evidence.

[96701]

On 01/06/2020 at 17:28, Tony Wright said:

 

 

And yet another N Gauge layout featuring some diesels - Falahill, on the Waverley route.

 

I'll dig through some more, more-recent shots and see what might be suitable, and of interest. I'll also look through my archives. 

 

Certainly different from photographs of Little Bytham.......

 

 

Tony,

 

Sorry to bother you, but I have read of Falahill in BRM and the modeller signed off by saying he has an aspiration  to model Ladywell Sidings in Preston. It just so happens that I used to work in Ladywell House and took 3 or 4 photos from a second floor window looking over the sidings. If you have Karl Smith's contact details please would you contact him and ask him to get in touch with me?

[D.Platt]

Hi Tony

Bit surprised that you don’t ask your professional  painters to finish the locos to a degree of weathering that you would like !  you have remarked before the models are for your pleasure and after your gone you don’t give a ****

I always finish mine in ex-works finish, then set about weathering it till I reach the desired level.

Dennis

PS  I thought your weathered J6 looked as if it had just come off a works visit.

[Dylan Sanderson]

Afternoon everyone, Rails of Sheffield have just announced two exclusive Bachmann V2s, a pretty penny to pay for a model if you ask me!

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3698-exclusive-v2-class-locomotives

Edited December 18, 2020 by Dylan Sanderson

[Barry O]

5 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Hi Tony

Bit surprised that you don’t ask your professional  painters to finish the locos to a degree of weathering that you would like !  you have remarked before the models are for your pleasure and after your gone you don’t give a ****

I always finish mine in ex-works finish, then set about weathering it till I reach the desired level.

Dennis

PS  I thought your weathered J6 looked as if it had just come off a works visit.

most professional model railway painters will "weather" stock for you.. it is generally done using an airbrush and it is a bit "flat". I have added weathering (and "Deweathered") quite a lot of locos like this over the years.  The painter/builders don't like it .. but if the client wants the changes - it is his or her model and the owner is always right.

 

Working from Black and white photos for weathering is always awkward.. how to detect where the "sooty muck" and  the "tracky mud" colours are. 

 

Baz

Edited December 18, 2020 by Barry O

[Brocp]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Many years ago, Buckjumper, formerly of this parish, had either a thread or part of a thread devoted to showing that Edwardian locos could be as scruffy as those of any other era.

 

I didn't have the wit to download the photos before the old RMWeb vanished, but he certainly found plenty of evidence.

I remember that topic well. It had some great photos in it.

 

What people seem to forget is that these are machines that are driven by steam, that have water, fire, oil and smoke effecting the paint/condition of them. All of their work is done outside. Most were 'shedded' outside. So the weather plays its part. They were never showroom pieces they were made for work and most of them worked goods trains, themselves dirty. Unless they were recently painted or being prepared to work a royal train they certainly weren't very clean. Yes pre WW1 they may have had more of a conscious effort to keep them cleaner, but they weren't fresh out of the box mint at all, which some people don't want to acknowledge. 

[MikeParkin65]

57 minutes ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Afternoon everyone, Rails of Sheffield have just announced two exclusive Bachmann V2s, a pretty penny to pay for a model if you ask me!

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3698-exclusive-v2-class-locomotives

Happily purchase will not be compulsory

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, Brocp said:

I remember that topic well. It had some great photos in it.

 

What people seem to forget is that these are machines that are driven by steam, that have water, fire, oil and smoke effecting the paint/condition of them. All of their work is done outside. Most were 'shedded' outside. So the weather plays its part. They were never showroom pieces they were made for work and most of them worked goods trains, themselves dirty. Unless they were recently painted or being prepared to work a royal train they certainly weren't very clean. Yes pre WW1 they may have had more of a conscious effort to keep them cleaner, but they weren't fresh out of the box mint at all, which some people don't want to acknowledge. 

 

I think you are possibly thinking about those who choose to run their model locos without weathering, like the late David Jenkinson and the ones on Bob Essery's Dewsbury layout.

 

That was very much a choice but it doesn't mean that such people think that all locos ran like that all the time.

 

David Jenkison once wrote that he omitted weathering because he knew his family would have to sell his collection one day and thought that weathering would reduce the value.

 

I have never met anybody who genuinely thinks that pre WW1 means that all locos were clean all the time.

 

My favourite reference work is "William Bradshaw, Leicester Railway Cameraman". That has everything from spotless to grubby. Even the grubby isn't a patch on the 1960s condition of locos on BR.

 

If it wasn't for copyright reasons I would post a photo of a GCR Atlantic waiting to take over a normal passenger train at Leicester Central. If you peer at it for long enough, you can just make out one tiny oil dribble! So that finish was not just for Royal Trains. 

 

[Brocp]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think you are possibly thinking about those who choose to run their model locos without weathering, like the late David Jenkinson and the ones on Bob Essery's Dewsbury layout.

 

That was very much a choice but it doesn't mean that such people think that all locos ran like that all the time.

 

David Jenkison once wrote that he omitted weathering because he knew his family would have to sell his collection one day and thought that weathering would reduce the value.

 

I have never met anybody who genuinely thinks that pre WW1 means that all locos were clean all the time.

 

My favourite reference work is "William Bradshaw, Leicester Railway Cameraman". That has everything from spotless to grubby. Even the grubby isn't a patch on the 1960s condition of locos on BR.

 

If it wasn't for copyright reasons I would post a photo of a GCR Atlantic waiting to take over a normal passenger train at Leicester Central. If you peer at it for long enough, you can just make out one tiny oil dribble! So that finish was not just for Royal Trains. 

 

I'm not saying that.

 

People can do whatever they want with their models. But that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about how some people seem to think things at certain periods were spotless most if not all of the time. Yes i too have photos of very clean locos in service but were they the majority? 

 

It may also come down to the railway.

 

The LMS for example seemed to not care as much for cleaning locos as others, at least taking in all the pictures I've seen as a whole. Camden and Crewe North Duchesses seemed worse off than the Scottish ones but those weren't sparkling either.

 

BR Eastern Region was a great example of sheds doing things as they saw fit for them. King's Cross seemingly really took cosmetic care of their locos (Elizabethen, Flying Scotsman pulling locos) where as others (Gateshead if memory serves) seemingly cared less what their locos looked like. 

 

Going back to the modelling side of it I've seen plenty of brilliantly detailed layouts that just look real, fantastic landscape modelling. Then every loco that rolls past is pristine. All the rolling stock is the same. Pre grouping layouts for the most part, at least from the ones I've seen, are a lot like this. 

 

But again it's their models they can do what they want with them.

[Dave John]

An interesting debate. I tend to try and go for light weathering depicting an Edwardian CR loco at the beginning of a shift when it would have been cleaned well. I'm not sure I'm all that good at it, but that is what I aim for. 

 

However my locos would be running through the tunnels of the GC and L&D under Glasgow, a good many miles of hard underground work. Conditions in those tunnels has been described as stygian, even with large chimney vents. Locos and carriages that were clean in the morning would be a lot grubbier by the end of a shift.  It can still feel a bit grubby travelling through there in a modern emu. 

 

So what we need is dynamic weathering. How about a system that blows a bit more weathering powder over the train as it passes depicting the build up of soot, oil and leakage throughout the working day ? It would cause havoc with the moving parts, but what price realism? Then you would then have to sit down with a load of cotton buds at the end of a running session and wash it all off again. 

 

It is of course an impractical but fun idea. Maybe someone could come up with a weathering paint that darkens over a few hours and goes lighter with exposure to UV or something? 

 

Anyway, just a daft thought. 

 

 

[D.Platt]

I think we all know on the railways in steam days it all came down to man power, or boy power at most loco sheds, and labour was in short supply so the young lads soon moved up the grades.

Loco sheds like Kings Cross had a team of Polish adult cleaners I believe , and did a brilliant job but ,  did they have an extra budget for this ? was each loco shed given a budget or did the district hold all the  budgetary  decisions ?

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Brocp said:

 

The LMS for example seemed to not care as much for cleaning locos as others, at least taking in all the pictures I've seen as a whole. Camden and Crewe North Duchesses seemed worse off than the Scottish ones but those weren't sparkling either.

 

 

My Father would confirm that, he would always say that the Midland (meaning LMS) locomotives were by far the dirtiest in his neck of the woods. He never saw a crimson lake painted loco in its entirety, the best that was on offer was the odd patch of red here and there across the surface of the locomotive. The GN had the worst carriages though, ''you would come out black bright after riding in one of those things''. He generally thought that depictions of pre War layouts were too clean.

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I see some layouts set in the 1950s, which have locos clearly weathered based on photos from the mid to late 1960s and it looks wrong.

 

I'd probably not noticed that but what you say is logical; these layouts may also show an inconsistency between weathering of the locos and the rest of the scenery (look at Colin Gifford's photos to see how filthy the whole urban environment was in the late 50s/early 60s).

 

One of the best layouts I have ever seen for consistent weathering and colouring is Wibdenshaw.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Brocp said:

I'm not saying that.

 

People can do whatever they want with their models. But that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about how some people seem to think things at certain periods were spotless most if not all of the time. Yes i too have photos of very clean locos in service but were they the majority? 

 

It may also come down to the railway.

 

The LMS for example seemed to not care as much for cleaning locos as others, at least taking in all the pictures I've seen as a whole. Camden and Crewe North Duchesses seemed worse off than the Scottish ones but those weren't sparkling either.

 

BR Eastern Region was a great example of sheds doing things as they saw fit for them. King's Cross seemingly really took cosmetic care of their locos (Elizabethen, Flying Scotsman pulling locos) where as others (Gateshead if memory serves) seemingly cared less what their locos looked like. 

 

Going back to the modelling side of it I've seen plenty of brilliantly detailed layouts that just look real, fantastic landscape modelling. Then every loco that rolls past is pristine. All the rolling stock is the same. Pre grouping layouts for the most part, at least from the ones I've seen, are a lot like this. 

 

But again it's their models they can do what they want with them.

 

I have seen many layouts from all periods with either no weathering, or sometimes dreadful weathering with everything plastered with the same shade of brown!

 

It is something that many people get wrong and I don't think that pre-grouping layouts are any better or any worse than others.

 

At least if there is no weathering, a pre-grouping layout will be less wrong than a 1960s one!

 

As you say, whatever anybody does on their own layout doesn't need to bother anybody else.

 

I would just add that one of the things that attracted me to modelling the pre-grouping period, apart from the superb looking stock, interesting liveries and the fact that my models don't look like those of everybody else, was a photo I saw taken on the GCR, with the whole background full of urban grot, even the buildings covered in soot and grime and a really smart loco and train as a contrast.

 

That contrast will be quite difficult to make convincing on a model railway but that is the plan.

[stewartingram]

2 hours ago, Brocp said:

I remember that topic well. It had some great photos in it.

 

What people seem to forget is that these are machines that are driven by steam, that have water, fire, oil and smoke effecting the paint/condition of them. All of their work is done outside. Most were 'shedded' outside. So the weather plays its part. They were never showroom pieces they were made for work and most of them worked goods trains, themselves dirty. Unless they were recently painted or being prepared to work a royal train they certainly weren't very clean. Yes pre WW1 they may have had more of a conscious effort to keep them cleaner, but they weren't fresh out of the box mint at all, which some people don't want to acknowledge. 

I was still at school, but went on a railtour to Derby works (was it an Ian Allan one?) in about 1962/3. We had a tour round the works, including the paintshop. There was a BR std 4-6-0? in there, freshly painted. What struck me was the amount of (thick) dust on the footplate and steps etc, full of footmarks. And it hadn't even been lit up!

 

Stewart

[CF MRC]

Being at the important end of the line... on CF we at least have the excuse for 50% of our main line passenger engines being reasonably clean.  Our GNR singles fairly sparkle as they lope through grimy Belle Isle and the Holloway Bank. I will always ‘let down’ a clean engine, rather than having it in ex-works condition, but having usually spent a long time making a scratch built model it will generally not be that dirty...

 

Tim

[t-b-g]

27 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I'd probably not noticed that but what you say is logical; these layouts may also show an inconsistency between weathering of the locos and the rest of the scenery (look at Colin Gifford's photos to see how filthy the whole urban environment was in the late 50s/early 60s).

 

One of the best layouts I have ever seen for consistent weathering and colouring is Wibdenshaw.

I would agree. Everything just looked as though it belonged on Wibdenshaw. 

[MJI]

I have a few books of 1950 to 1990s railways and quite often stuff is actually quite clean. 50s and 60s in the West.

 

You can tell if a loco is green or black. Carriages are generally clean but weathered.

 

Ex LMS though locos do appear to be dirtier, but coaching stock is quite clean.

 

A lot of stock is glossy sides with grubby roofs and track coloured underframes.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Hi Tony

Bit surprised that you don’t ask your professional  painters to finish the locos to a degree of weathering that you would like !  you have remarked before the models are for your pleasure and after your gone you don’t give a ****

I always finish mine in ex-works finish, then set about weathering it till I reach the desired level.

Dennis

PS  I thought your weathered J6 looked as if it had just come off a works visit.

Good afternoon Dennis,

 

With every model I have professionally painted (by Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes) I always provide a prototype picture or refer the painters to books. Every one is weathered to some extent; usually lightly, and completely to my satisfaction. In the case of the J6, if you'd like to compare it with the picture on page 3 of Keith Pirt's Steam Memories: Retford, you'll find Geoff has done a marvellous job of replicating its condition. 

 

I've said before, it would be absurd to obliterate a professionally-painted loco, though that doesn't mean Ian and Geoff don't apply some weathering.

 

 

This A4, painted by Ian, is weathered down, but, at some point, it's been cleaned.

 

 

This B17, painted by Geoff, is a bit grubby. Again, like all the others, based on a prototype shot.

 

 

This V2 (another example of Geoff's work) is 'dusty'.

 

I don't think I'd have the courage to ask either Ian or Geoff the replicate something like this..........................

 

 

Withdrawn, on York Shed in October 1965. Even then, it does show some evidence of having been cleaned.

 

One thing I do insist upon is weathered motion (which I undertake). Even ex-works locos have their motion greased.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, 96701 said:

Tony,

 

Sorry to bother you, but I have read of Falahill in BRM and the modeller signed off by saying he has an aspiration  to model Ladywell Sidings in Preston. It just so happens that I used to work in Ladywell House and took 3 or 4 photos from a second floor window looking over the sidings. If you have Karl Smith's contact details please would you contact him and ask him to get in touch with me?

Will do, Phil..........

[mullie]

I've seen some photos of locos in the post war period and through to the early 50s in a very dirty state including a 5 year old 8f in an appalling state and a very dirty J15 at Wells next the Sea in around 1952. I also read an article on Ipswich shed around six months ago accompanied by some lovely mid 50s photos showing a line of locos in a well used, slightly grubby but polished state, evidence of some care.

 

I think as pretty much everyone says on here, use photos of the chosen prototype in your given time frame but then some people don't want to do that which is also their choice.

 

I weather everything and try to create an overall feel that includes stock, buildings, road transport and everything else inbetween, nothing is ever used straight out of the box.

 

Happy Christmas everyone and thank you for the continued inspiration that has helped me to raise my game.

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

Martyn

[Beechnut]

I harvested this image from Facebook and thought it might add to the weathering debate.

Doncaster 1964