Wright writes.....

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

They're in the Comet pattern maker's list of things to do. 2021 sometime?

 

 

 

Ooh  I doubt this set will get to the top of the pile before 2022 so works for me!

[johndon]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

A question for the LNER coach experts...

 

I have a Cooper Craft (ex Ian Kirk?) kit for a Gresley Open Third Brake that I'm going to build albeit in it's later, departmental form, as part of the British Rail weed killer train which will mean some modification to the kit sides and ends.

 

I'm told that the end profile is wrong as is the roof shape.  To be honest I can probably live with this but wanted to check if there were any alternatives to the kit, I've done a search and can't find anything but figured I'd ask anyway...

 

John

 

 

I know I'm quoting my own post but I just wanted to say thank you to Mike Trice who has emailed me with some options.

 

John

 

[Tony Teague]

Reader's of this thread who have so far failed to purchase Mr Wright's excellent tome "Modelling the East Coast Main Line" might wish to know that PostScript Books are currently offering it for £6.99 - about one third of its published price!

See: https://www.psbooks.co.uk/Modelling-the-East-Coast-Main-Line

Tony

[Headstock]

10 hours ago, Iain.d said:

Hi Andrew,

 

Thanks for your comments. I didn’t think of beefing up the truss rods on this particular construction, although I have tried in the past with earlier Comet Coach builds. What I found was that I couldn’t seem to get the brass angle perfectly in line with the etched trussing, they were in some way out of parallel and therefore the addition was obvious. This was a fair few years ago so having another go, with a fresh view is definitely on the cards. I will be looking to purchase another Comet Coach kit (LMS D1718 RF) and revisit the idea you suggest and see if I can make some foolproof method of lining up and securing the brass angle before soldering.

 

On looking at this carriage ‘in the flesh’, the trussing is not as spindly or fine as that in the photo; it may be that that the white background highlights the thinness.

 

For all of the RTR rebuilds I do, I make my own underframe up from brass strip and 1mm brass angle. I’ve always felt this trussing is a little ‘fine’ but I prefer building this sort of thing in metal rather than plastic…I can be pretty heavy handed at times.

 

 

I get this angle from Eileen’s Emporium and note that they also supply it in 1.2mm width so maybe I’ll put some of that on the next order. That being said, I have already batch built the underframes for my next four RTR rebuilds and only have to build an underframe for an old BSL/Phoenix carriage.

 

On your information relating to dining cars on the LM – the marshalling of the additional dining seating next to the saloon end of the restaurant car is a point I considered on this build. I’m not sure whether there was a ‘normal’ system or method. I chose to put the first class end of the CO next to the kitchen as I considered the distance the waiter may have to walk/serve food. If how I did it is wrong, it’s easy enough to remarshal the stock.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

 

Good morning Iain,

 

1.2 mm is about scale for  a number of real life applications. However, 1mm looks quite OK. Its the lack of three dimensions on the Comet etch that looks too spindly, after all it's 1mm x b****r all. it will take 1mm x 1mm angle OK, 1.2 may overlap. One other thing to look out for is that the trussing can be a bit generic. Watch out for the depth of the queen posts on some floor pans, it is often too deep and this contributes to the spindly look. On some GWR carriages I think I had to scrap it completely.

 

I dug out my Tebay picture file to check a couple of things and cross referenced with the CWN's, they are all late forties and early fifties formations, as they are LM carriages and catering rather than boring old MK1's. Not your period I know but finding complete LM dining sets in the BR maroon era would be as rare as hens teeth.  It's  been over twenty years since I seriously looked at WC formations, so a couple of updates as I couldn't recall the direction of travel of the Dining cars.

 

I could only find one example of an RC running with and open carriage, it was an open third. Not surprising, as an RC  CO combination sounds like major overkill on the first class accommodation that could be set for dining. You will have to build an RT.

 

 The RF in the Birmingham Glasgow had the saloon facing south, so the TO's were marshalled at the kitchen or Northern end of the formation. The Euston Perth also had a South Facing saloon on the RT, thus the two TO's were also marshalled at the Kitchen or Northern end. Only a single CO was present, marshalled with the first class saloon against the saloon in the Dining car. The RC in the combined Liverpool Manchester express,  also had a south facing saloon. The RC with TO that I mentioned, was the same, with the TO placed at the Northern or Kitchen end of the RC. There is some consistency in the formatting of the catering as you can see, even though the trains originate from different divisions. 

 

With regard to closeness to the kitchens, I would not assume so. For example, a lot of companies liked to marshal their first class carriages closest to the ticket barrier when departing London termini and often the kitchen was used as a spacer between first and third class passengers.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Headstock
add info

[Black Marlin]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

Reader's of this thread who have so far failed to purchase Mr Wright's excellent tome "Modelling the East Coast Main Line" might wish to know that PostScript Books are currently offering it for £6.99 - about one third of its published price!

See: https://www.psbooks.co.uk/Modelling-the-East-Coast-Main-Line

Tony

Well that's my order placed... In whose company could I better start the new year than Sir's?*

*lingerie models specifically excluded from this thought experiment.

[robertcwp]

48 minutes ago, Headstock said:

I dug out my Tebay picture file to check a couple of things and cross referenced with the CWN's, they are all late forties and early fifties formations, as they are LM carriages and catering rather than boring old MK1's. Not your period I know but finding complete LM dining sets in the BR maroon era would be as rare as hens teeth.  It's  been over twenty years since I seriously looked at WC formations, so a couple of updates as I couldn't recall the direction of travel of the Dining cars.

 

 

The Pines Express was an example. It retained the LMS RS/CO pair until the early 1960s. A Mark 1 Diag 17 RF appeared in the train in its final year or two on the S&D. By the late 1950s, the carriage workings (and photos) show lots of Mark 1 opens running with LMS kitchen cars or diners, although it is clear from photos that LMS designs were still in use for dining. I found a good example recently of a maroon train with an open second and open first either side of an RK, all LMS design. One of the opens was ex-Coronation Scot.

 

Apart from a few kitchen cars built in 1951 (which it seems the LMR disliked), there were no Mark 1 catering cars allocated to the LMR until 1960 at the earliest.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

Reader's of this thread who have so far failed to purchase Mr Wright's excellent tome "Modelling the East Coast Main Line" might wish to know that PostScript Books are currently offering it for £6.99 - about one third of its published price!

See: https://www.psbooks.co.uk/Modelling-the-East-Coast-Main-Line

Tony

Thanks Tony,

 

Most of the books I've written either end up being remaindered (heavily-discounted) or given away! Is there a message there?

 

Regards, and all the best for a Happier New Year..................

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

One or two points..............

 

I've used Mailcoach 10' plastic bogies underneath several artic twins/triplets I've made, and underneath a Pullman brake.

 

Despite their being 'only' plastic, they run very well (providing brass pin-point bearings are used, with metal wheels of course). 

 

I was ignorant of their inaccuracies.....................

[Iain.d]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Iain,

 

1.2 mm is about scale for  a number of real life applications. However, 1mm looks quite OK. Its the lack of three dimensions on the Comet etch that looks too spindly, after all it's 1mm x b****r all. it will take 1mm x 1mm angle OK, 1.2 may overlap. One other thing to look out for is that the trussing can be a bit generic. Watch out for the depth of the queen posts on some floor pans, it is often too deep and this contributes to the spindly look. On some GWR carriages I think I had to scrap it completely.

 

I dug out my Tebay picture file to check a couple of things and cross referenced with the CWN's, they are all late forties and early fifties formations, as they are LM carriages and catering rather than boring old MK1's. Not your period I know but finding complete LM dining sets in the BR maroon era would be as rare as hens teeth.  It's  been over twenty years since I seriously looked at WC formations, so a couple of updates as I couldn't recall the direction of travel of the Dining cars.

 

I could only find one example of an RC running with and open carriage, it was an open third. Not surprising, as an RC  CO combination sounds like major overkill on the first class accommodation that could be set for dining. You will have to build an RT.

 

 The RF in the Birmingham Glasgow had the saloon facing south, so the TO's were marshalled at the kitchen or Northern end of the formation. The Euston Perth also had a South Facing saloon on the RT, thus the two TO's were also marshalled at the Kitchen or Northern end. Only a single CO was present, marshalled with the first class saloon against the saloon in the Dining car. The RC in the combined Liverpool Manchester express,  also had a south facing saloon. The RC with TO that I mentioned, was the same, with the TO placed at the Northern or Kitchen end of the RC. There is some consistency in the formatting of the catering as you can see, even though the trains originate from different divisions. 

 

With regard to closeness to the kitchens, I would not assume so. For example, a lot of companies liked to marshal their first class carriages closest to the ticket barrier when departing London termini and often the kitchen was used as a spacer between first and third class passengers.

 

 

 

Thanks Andrew, some interesting nuggets of information for me to file away.

 

I think you’re right, the Restaurant Composite can ‘go it alone’ or I can pair it up with a BSL/Phoenix D1807 Third Open that I’ve yet to build.  I’ll get a RT (D1901/1923) and pair it with this CO. I have another TO earmarked to run with a RF.  In the CWNs I have accessed I can see that trains such as The Pines Express, depending on the year, day of the week or season, ran with either a RF or RS, I’ll build stock to cover a couple of options including other services from/to Liverpool, Manchester and Bradford.

 

The period I’m aiming to model is 1950-1962. I’m building and collecting a range of stock appropriate for this timeframe, broken down into about 3 year chunks of time, the right(ish) stock reflecting the period. This is allowing for what I have built already, so if it’s a Nottingham to Bournemouth service it’s predominantly former LNER stock or a Bournemouth/Exmouth to Cleethorpes service it’s Southern stock. I know for many of these services there was stock provided by more than one region – but I can’t do it all! Its probably only in the last 3 or 4 years I’ve looked more seriously at the stock behind the loco and I have built too much already to start again. What I‘ll run will look about right but won’t be exact.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[Headstock]

15 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I use a number of RCs and also RUs as substitutes for the correct types on my foreshortened trains (60% of prototype length, rounded up).

 

The GWR basically did the same thing with their cross country expresses, in the sense that they were cutdown versions employing an RC. The NE and WR sets of the Swansea York Restaurant car express are compared below. The NER set is at the top, all Gresley. The GWR set did end up employing an extra third marshalled outside of the brake.

 

 

[Tony Teague]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

Most of the books I've written either end up being remaindered (heavily-discounted) or given away! Is there a message there?

 

Regards, and all the best for a Happier New Year..................

 

Tony. 

 

If you look at the PostScript catalogue, you are in very good company!

Happy New Year to you, Mo & Jilly!

Tony

[D.Platt]

Good afternoon All

First hope everybody has recovered from Christmas and wish you all a back to Normal 2021,and may we all get to see an exhibition sometime this coming year.

Like a lot of others on this thread I have benefitted  from having this wonderful hobby this last year, the work I’ve completed would have probably taken me two or three years to complete.

This is my latest loco build , apart from fixing the cab doors and a clean up I have to decide which chimney to go for ! After looking at lots of photos ,did they have two types fitted ? The white metal one supplied with the kit seems better than the turned brass one that I bought years ago for it, decisions, decisions !!

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

The Pines Express was an example. It retained the LMS RS/CO pair until the early 1960s. A Mark 1 Diag 17 RF appeared in the train in its final year or two on the S&D. By the late 1950s, the carriage workings (and photos) show lots of Mark 1 opens running with LMS kitchen cars or diners, although it is clear from photos that LMS designs were still in use for dining. I found a good example recently of a maroon train with an open second and open first either side of an RK, all LMS design. One of the opens was ex-Coronation Scot.

 

Apart from a few kitchen cars built in 1951 (which it seems the LMR disliked), there were no Mark 1 catering cars allocated to the LMR until 1960 at the earliest.

 

Good afternoon Robert,

 

I know nothing about the S&D or the Pines express, except it was still LM stock in the glorious summer of 1955. It's nice to see LM carriages being built and shown on here, any carriages for that matter, even Tony's trials and tribulations with his blooming MK1. As you point out, a rare combination of all LM catering was present in the Pines express at the time, as compared to the other examples that you note, were the spread of MK1 stock is rife.

 

Shipley MRS modelled Evercreech junction a long before my time. It is still regarded as one of the first, if not the first  model railway to use a real location and model accurate train formations. The original Evercreech junction station nameboard hangs up in our club rooms to this day.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Headstock
tweak

[Andy Hayter]

13 hours ago, Iain.d said:

Hi Andrew,

 

Thanks for your comments. I didn’t think of beefing up the truss rods on this particular construction, although I have tried in the past with earlier Comet Coach builds. What I found was that I couldn’t seem to get the brass angle perfectly in line with the etched trussing, they were in some way out of parallel and therefore the addition was obvious.

 

For all of the RTR rebuilds I do, I make my own underframe up from brass strip and 1mm brass angle. I’ve always felt this trussing is a little ‘fine’ but I prefer building this sort of thing in metal rather than plastic…I can be pretty heavy handed at times.

 

 

 

 

 

Iain

You could always consider soldering the angle to the truss etch before you remove the etch from the fret.

[Tony Wright]

22 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Robert,

 

I know nothing about the S&D or the Pines express, except it was still LM stock in the glorious summer of 1955. It's nice to see LM carriages being built and shown on here, any carriages for that matter, even Tony's trials and tribulations with his blooming MK1. As you point out, a rare combination of all LM catering was present in the Pines express at the time, as compared to the other examples that you note, were the spread of MK1 stock is rife.

 

Shipley MRS modelled Evercreech junction a long before my time. It is still regarded as one of the first, if not the first  model railway to use a real location and model accurate train formations. The original Evercreech junction station nameboard hangs up in our club rooms to this day.

Good afternoon Andrew,

 

Evercreech Junction? Yes, one of the 'pioneering layouts' indeed. Shipley has produced a veritable dynasty!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

Here's a bit of Evercheech black and white magic from the dawn of photography.

 

Heliotype courtesy of Derek Shore.

 

 

[grob1234]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

One or two points..............

 

I've used Mailcoach 10' plastic bogies underneath several artic twins/triplets I've made, and underneath a Pullman brake.

 

Despite their being 'only' plastic, they run very well (providing brass pin-point bearings are used, with metal wheels of course). 

 

I was ignorant of their inaccuracies.....................

 

They do run very nicely. In fact, Tony, you gave me a couple for my SJ set. Even though they are made up and painted, I'm going to use them as a master to make a mould, then I can improve them, as I too was unaware of their being inaccurate. A few little improvements as per Mike’s diagram, and I’ll be able to produce accurate 10’ bogie sides.

[Tony Wright]

The 'blooming' SP Mk.1 is now complete (or as complete as it'll ever be). 

 

 

More and more it's convinced me that my modelling medium is definitely NOT plastic.

 

The advantage of having (very nice) finished, pre-printed sides is militated by the risk of damage throughout the build process (though the surface damage is negligeable now).

 

 

It's definitely nothing more than a 'layout coach'.....................

 

 

In a 'layout train' (in this case a Kings Cross-Edinburgh/Glasgow express, with Ian Wilson's carriage destination boards). It's definitely more-glossy than RTR equivalents (the third car) and does stand out a little as being (still) slightly taller. With that in mind, a car like this is probably best in a rake of its direct siblings. 

 

What is the 'hope' now for buildings models like this? It looks like they're no longer available in this form, so the question's merely academic. Anyway, such is the current excellence of RTR equivalents, that I can't match that quality by building something like this. That said, there's always the pleasure of saying 'I made that', inferior though it might be. And, it's provided some enjoyable modelling time over the last few days, which can't be 'bought' merely by purchasing or commissioning. 

 

As an aside, it seems that the original kit I bought off Dave Lewis (in the last century!) was provided at source with blue/grey sides...............

 

 

I must have ordered the maroon equivalents later. 

 

That being the case, if anyone is interested in these, they're 'free' to a good home (please PM if you're interested). If they go, all I'd ask is a modest donation be made to a charity of the new owner's choosing. I'll provide the postage. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[D.Platt]

Evercheech  Junction, that takes me back to a very pleasant weekend at Halifax , I had a stall on the stage and was able to watch Evercheech all though the weekend, my brother took his newly built DJH  WD , after asking on the Saturday and they ran in on the Sunday, think someone from Shipley had evidence that one had run over the S&D !

Happy days.

Dennis

funny when I look at my photos of the 77xxx the two chimneys look the same ! but when I look at them in the flesh the brass on looks thinner , must be my eyes !!

[BMacdermott]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Robert,

 

I know nothing about the S&D or the Pines express (.....)

 

Hello Andrew

 

Well...therein lies a vast new world of research and information for you!

 

Brian

[Iain.d]

51 minutes ago, Headstock said:

Here's a bit of Evercheech black and white magic from the dawn of photography.

 

Heliotype courtesy of Derek Shore.

 

 

Happy memories!!
 

I still have the layout’s pages from the Railway Modeller (June or July 1984, or thereabouts). To me, it is still inspirational reading and modelling.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Edited December 31, 2020 by Iain.d
Typo

[Headstock]

24 minutes ago, D.Platt said:

 think someone from Shipley had evidence that one had run over the S&D !

 

 

I bet it was my old pal Ron, he would have evidence of Big boys working over the S&D!

 

4 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Andrew

 

Well...therein lies a vast new world of research and information for you!

 

Brian

 

Nah, the S&D has plenty of fans and has been done a lot. There is nothing that I could contribute of any value.

[BMacdermott]

2 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Nah, the S&D has plenty of fans and has been done a lot. There is nothing that I could contribute of any value.

 

Hello Andrew

 

My point was that this thread is about 'learning'...if, as you say, you 'know nothing about the S&D', it is well worth looking into. I didn't mention 'contributing'.

 

Brian

[bbishop]

So, I have several kits to build for Southwark Bridge, so perhaps that should be my resolution.  That's right, back to 4mm after about 40 years and straight into P4.  I'm doing an SECR van first, which can be parked in a siding  if it decides to fall off.  Bill

[BMacdermott]

44 minutes ago, D.Platt said:

Evercheech  Junction, that takes me back to a very pleasant weekend at Halifax , I had a stall on the stage and was able to watch Evercheech all though the weekend, my brother took his newly built DJH  WD , after asking on the Saturday and they ran in on the Sunday, think someone from Shipley had evidence that one had run over the S&D !

Happy days.

Dennis

 

Hello Dennis

 

WD 2-8-0 No.90693 was 'clearance tested' over the S&D with a brake van on 9 December 1958.

 

In January 1959, sister loco No.90125 arrived for a test working on the 11.00am Bath (Green Park)-Evercreech Junction goods. She was booked to work the train on 21 January but 'went off the boil' and had be worked back on shed by No.53804, which duly worked the train.

 

No.90125 did work the train on 22 January. Behind the loco was a 4-wheel fitted van, then an SR Van BY, three SR 4-wheel 'utility vans' and another fitted van - highly unusual on S&D freight trains - then about 30 or so mixed wagons and vans.

 

To quote briefly from one of Ivo Peters' albums: 

Off they set, gingerly, from Shepton Mallet, but by Prestleigh speed was building up at an alarming rate and the engine no longer had control of the train. Somewhat disturbed, the inspector called out to the driver, "Will you be able to pull up by the junction, driver?" to which he got the very abrupt reply , "Junction be b.....! We will be b.... lucky if we have stopped by Cole!" Whereupon the vacuum fitted vans were hastily brought into action...and the 'Austerity' 8Fs were not seen again on the S&D.

 

Once upon a time, the Log Book of the Bath (Green Park) Shed Running Foreman was in my possession but, sadly, that started a month later than these trips.

 

Brian