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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Tony,

 

I've just remembered what he two Standards were for. There were two trains that arrived at Tebay station from the South. They were remarshalled into one formation on the mainline, with a great deal of shunting and huffing and puffing. The two standards had come down the line from Kirby Stephen I think (maybe further) and were waiting in the yard. When the train engines had gone on to Tebay shed, the two standards backdown from the NE yard and coupled on to the newly assembled formation. The whole train then set of from the Northbound platform, across onto the NE and continued on on up the Stainmore route to somewhere like Barnard Castle. There was a couple of trains that ran along that route in the sequence, but I think that was the only one to interact directly with the WCML. It may have been a miners gala special, I don't recall now, as there was also a daily miners works train that used the platform on the NE side  of Tebay station, or it may have been that train also came from the south via the WCML.

Possibly the summer Blackpool - South Shields train? That was routed across Stainmore. There was also a weekly Durham? to Ulverston service for injured Durham coalfield miners - there was a convalescence home in Ulverston, IIRC.

 

Mark

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10 hours ago, johndon said:

 

Tony posted the photo above a few pages ago taken when he visited the under construction layout as can be seen from the skewers where some of the signals should be.  Here's one taken from the other side of the bridge looking towards where Tony took his photo from with all signals in place.  The Q6 is where the Clayton is in Tony's photo.

 

Q6.jpg.7df508f3371e0ecc51c9a8e2e5ee3fa3.jpg

A wonderful picture, John,

 

But, isn't it a Q7?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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9 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Good evening Tony,

 

No I didn’t add the extra doors to the twin FO. This was the first prototypical rake that I put together - chosen because it was relatively short and my layout at that stage couldn’t take more than 8 coaches. I didn’t know about the extra doors at that stage (6 or 7 years ago). 
 

I do have two BSOs though - both SPM as Hornby hadn’t produced theirs at that stage. The RF and RSO were Comet and SPM respectively.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Thanks Andy,

 

I did try the SP BSO I've just built at the head of the afternoon 'Talisman', but the colour match between it and the rest of the rake was way out (I can detect it in your rake). 

 

You might have noticed that I use the new BSO between two carmine/cream cars in its train. 

 

I know that colours (ostensibly the same) can vary in prototype trains, but the model colour mismatch was too much for me in this case. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I understand your philosophy perfectly, Tony, but it's not for me as you know. I'm in the Graham Nicholas/Tony Gee school.

 

I remember you inviting me to operate Stoke Summit at Brighton many moons ago and, while I felt privileged to do so, I know that you won't mind me saying (because I've said it to you before) that it was one of the least interesting (I nearly said boring* but that wouldn't quite be true) layouts I've ever worked on as an operator.

 

It's the difference, as has been mentioned before, between running trains and operating them.

 

*If you wanted boring, you should have tried the Brighton MRC's model of Volk's Railway, built for its centenary in 1983.

Good morning John,

 

I'd go as far as to say (to those who enjoy operating) that driving Stoke Summit was boring. Since I so rarely drove it, I never got into that position, but for what it was designed to do, it succeeded.

 

It was so 'boring' that, once its exhibition career was over, it was sold (and it's still running well!). It was originally my property, though it was built by a team from WMRC. The original intention was to bring it over to where we now live and, after its retirement, be permanently set-up as my trainset in Lincolnshire. However, the prospect of it never being run (if I didn't drive it at shows, it'd be highly unlikely I'd do so at home) led me to donate it to the club. Thus, Little Bytham was built, which gave the team (plus Ian Wilson and Norman Solomon) something new to build and have, at least in some measure, a layout with 'operating potential'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I think that, in general, that is the case, Graham. For many years I've held the view that a good operators' layout does not make a good exhibition layout and vice versa. There are, of course, exceptions that prove the rule (Borchester Market, Leeds Victoria, Grantham?) but in my experience it's true in the great majority of cases.

Good morning again, John,

 

Since I never operated Borchester nor Leeds Victoria, I cannot comment first-hand, but I'm not sure every spectator 'got' what Grantham was/is all about, operationally. 

 

Granted, my only operating was on the shed. Graeme King and I once, during a training session, attempted to operate the station - talk about the blind leading the blind; more like the dead! 

 

I would try to keep something moving on the shed at all times, even if it were just an engine switching roads, but many was the time I'd overhear someone stating 'Nothing happening here' as they moved off. Nothing had gone wrong, but the complexities of operation dictated that there'd be several (protracted) gaps between trains - exactly like the prototype. 

 

Which brings me to agree entirely with your general case. Indeed, had WMRC operated Stoke Summit 'prototypically', spectators would have left in their droves. Around five time in the sequence, an empty goods train (empty minerals, empty steel, empty stock, etc.) would plod out from the Down slow, on to the double track section towards Stoke Tunnel. As soon as it had reached the fiddle yard, almost without exception, the Down fast boards would be pulled to 'off' and an express would be tearing past. In reality, the plodder wouldn't have even reached High Dyke, and there'd have been an almighty prang inside Stoke Tunnel! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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11 hours ago, sandra said:

Tony,

Thanks for letting me have the V2 and the Ivatt 4MT. The V2 is fine but the 4MT has given problems but these have now been resolved and it works very well.
A0B36096-81F7-43A1-A8A9-ABC6802AE92B.jpeg.f41f7a8a56ab4f77590a55fb0c590321.jpeg

Here’s a photo of them passing on the GN main line just north of the station.  The V2 is on a down parcels train and the 4MT is on an up fitted goods. You can see I haven’t fitted lamps yet. The problems with the 4MT were due to the pickups. It has plunger pickups on the loco and these are useless. I’ve wired the loco and tender together so it picks up current from the tender. I will probably put it on a goods on the GC section as a number were allocated to various Lincolnshire sheds. The funny thing about this model is that it looks better in reality than it does in photographs.

8670A335-02C6-4B4F-ADA6-CF84890FFE01.jpeg.4826d858a48dc802fa276c1a38c81b3a.jpeg

The V2 runs beautifully and is a much needed locomotive on Retford, I haven’t decided what train it will run on permanently but I think possibly the  

Scotch goods.

880E1F1E-8FE5-4D67-BACA-99257B8D84DA.jpeg.65143ab75fc33afdc6a20192037f1264.jpeg

Here’s another recent addition to Retford, it’s an A2 60539 Bronzino which I have just built from a DJH kit. It needs a few details to be added and it’s far too clean so it needs weathering, particularly the valve gear. 
 

I will make a donation to CRUK for the Ivatt 4MT.
Sandra.

Just a second look, Sandra,

 

The RH front step on the Ivatt seems to be bent slightly inwards. It could catch the pony on tighter curves (not that there are many on Retford). 

 

I soldered the steps on securely, so they should bend out easily.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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11 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I would try to keep something moving on the shed at all times, even if it were just an engine switching roads, but many was the time I'd overhear someone stating 'Nothing happening here' as they moved off. Nothing had gone wrong, but the complexities of operation dictated that there'd be several (protracted) gaps between trains - exactly like the prototype. 

 

 

Yes, that does seem to be a typical comment and expectation at exhibitions - and consequently the relentless pressure and need to keep trains running around the layout when operating at an exhibition. However, I do wonder if it is a realistic expectation or one that is universally held. Does everyone just go to exhibitions to see something happening on a layout? Sometime, at exhibitions, I want to see inspirational and great examples of railway modelling. I don't always want to see trains whizzing around. And if they are stationary it is often easier to see and inspect them.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Just a second look, Sandra,

 

The RH front step on the Ivatt seems to be bent slightly inwards. It could catch the pony on tighter curves (not that there are many on Retford). 

 

I soldered the steps on securely, so they should bend out easily.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 


Thanks Tony, I’ll look at it later and straighten it. Once the pickups were sorted out it ran very well down to very slow speeds and the pony truck hasn’t fowled the step.

 

I haven’t put too heavy a load behind it because I am afraid of it losing the quartering but so far it’s been alright on Retford curves but of course the curves are sharper on the GC section as are the gradients. I will try it on a goods train on the GC later and perhaps post some photos.

 

Sandra

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3 minutes ago, sandra said:


Thanks Tony, I’ll look at it later and straighten it. Once the pickups were sorted out it ran very well down to very slow speeds and the pony truck hasn’t fowled the step.

 

I haven’t put too heavy a load behind it because I am afraid of it losing the quartering but so far it’s been alright on Retford curves but of course the curves are sharper on the GC section as are the gradients. I will try it on a goods train on the GC later and perhaps post some photos.

 

Sandra

Good morning Sandra,

 

I think the quartering should be fine now. I secured each wheel/axle with a dab of runny superglue, which should have penetrated.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Stoke was an excellent layout for travelling back in time and just "watching the trains go by".  In doing so, it provided almost continuous movement for children and the casual visitor, and also a good mix of train types and locomotives.   There are many branch line layouts which are beautifully modelled but where the daily train service could be counted on one's fingers.  I can enjoy watching the fill-in shunting movements on such layouts but only if the movement is prototypical and not just moving wagons up and down for the sake of it (and the illusion is spoiled by the arrival of the great hand from the sky to poke stalled locos and to fish for 3 link couplings!). 

 

I think what I like is a combination of both, which probably means a station on a continuous main line.  This provides both (hopefully interesting) passing trains and also purposeful shunting and light engine movements.  These are probably the layouts I enjoy most at exhibitions and try to emulate at home.  A mix of nostalgia, relaxation and stimulation?

 

I find the comments of use of coaches interesting.  There are many sources of information on the design, construction and operation of locomotives and an increasing number on goods vehicles.  There are some good books on coach design but very little on the "why" and "how" of passenger train and vehicle operation (Steve Banks excluded).  The operation of Carlisle will be interesting!

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andy,

 

I did try the SP BSO I've just built at the head of the afternoon 'Talisman', but the colour match between it and the rest of the rake was way out (I can detect it in your rake). 

 

You might have noticed that I use the new BSO between two carmine/cream cars in its train. 

 

I know that colours (ostensibly the same) can vary in prototype trains, but the model colour mismatch was too much for me in this case. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Tony,

 

I’m surprised you say that about my SPM BSOs. They are from the ‘Etchmaster’ range, so they are etched brass sides on a donor coach, painted with Ford Burgundy red. Six of the eight coaches in the train are kit built and have the same paint finish, so if anything is an outlier it’s the Bachmann CK next to the BSO! I’ve done a colour comparison.

47C1E034-583B-4E24-8D48-DE75F4290633.jpeg.616030a839b7ab151fd07853ddb61977.jpeg

 

This shows the SPM BSO (right), a Bachmann SK (centre) and a SPM Mk 1 prototype (E3083) from their colourmaster range (left). In terms of finish, the Ford Burgundy red is slightly lighter than the Bachmann colour but quite within my acceptable range. The Colourmaster (pre printed sides like you just built) is perhaps a better match colour wise to the Bachmann but is glossier.

 

For me all these differences are OK. My top priority is always getting the correct formation and (if I can’t have the best of both worlds), I’d rather have a poor model of the correct diagram than a good model of the wrong diagram. I appreciate that others will have different priorities.

 

By the way, the problem becomes worse with Crimson and Cream liveries where there are two colours to match and in this case the SPM colourmaster stands out more. 

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Sandra,

 

I think the quartering should be fine now. I secured each wheel/axle with a dab of runny superglue, which should have penetrated.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Just out of interest what make / type of superglue did you use ?. I have one loco (O gauge) with a loose nylon gear press fitted onto the axle. It needs some sort of glue, what would you recommend ?

 

Brit15

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38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning again, John,

 

Since I never operated Borchester nor Leeds Victoria, I cannot comment first-hand, but I'm not sure every spectator 'got' what Grantham was/is all about, operationally. 

 

Granted, my only operating was on the shed. Graeme King and I once, during a training session, attempted to operate the station - talk about the blind leading the blind; more like the dead! 

 

I would try to keep something moving on the shed at all times, even if it were just an engine switching roads, but many was the time I'd overhear someone stating 'Nothing happening here' as they moved off. Nothing had gone wrong, but the complexities of operation dictated that there'd be several (protracted) gaps between trains - exactly like the prototype. 

 

Which brings me to agree entirely with your general case. Indeed, had WMRC operated Stoke Summit 'prototypically', spectators would have left in their droves. Around five time in the sequence, an empty goods train (empty minerals, empty steel, empty stock, etc.) would plod out from the Down slow, on to the double track section towards Stoke Tunnel. As soon as it had reached the fiddle yard, almost without exception, the Down fast boards would be pulled to 'off' and an express would be tearing past. In reality, the plodder wouldn't have even reached High Dyke, and there'd have been an almighty prang inside Stoke Tunnel! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I have seen discussions many times about operating layouts at exhibitions and in my own mind, it is all about keeping the gaps between moves to an absolute minimum and if possible having two things going at once.

 

The operation also has to have some correlation with the size of the layout.

 

A 40ft layout which has one loco shunting in a yard for a while is not going to entertain people for very long.

 

I have exhibited many  layouts over the years and been a guest operator on others. The ones that had the biggest crowds and which people stayed to watch for ages have been Gresley Beat and Leighton Buzzard. I cannot imagine a bigger contrast.

 

One was dull as an operator and one was great fun.

 

When we had Leighton Buzzard at Warley show, one chap watched for an hour, early in the day and came back for a second hour because he said that it was the only layout he had seen that he thought the operation was interesting enough to stay that long.

 

I do think that there are some preconceptions of what people want to see.

 

A layout with long pauses between moves and the same move over and over again is never going to entertain. Either trains whizzing about all over the place or well organised operation with overlapping moves or tiny gaps between moves can be just as entertaining.

 

When I have seen Grantham it has been in the second category and I have usually had to wait to get near it. So if an individual didn't appreciate it, that is their loss.

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Some more 'Talisman' shots (some taken some time ago).

 

951197564_60138onTalisman.jpg.72d0362002259ff6c9e3192a5bc504ad.jpg

 

Both 'Talisman' rakes ran on Stoke Summit. This is the Up morning train. 

 

66130660_600340nDownMorningTalisman.jpg.57387007742141b49a9caaf04bbd1546.jpg

 

The Down morning train, consisting entirely of modified Bachmann Mk.1s. 

 

2098905402_DJHA1onUpTalisman.jpg.c9fdb61689edd2210098ad147960dc8b.jpg

 

And the Up afternoon service (with the same loco as seen yesterday!). I tried to match the colours as closely as possible, though there are some slight discrepancies. The RF/RU in this shot is a modified Bachmann Mk.1, later replaced with the more-appropriate Thompson equivalent. 

 

894837720_A4onUpAfternoonTalisman.jpg.d381e4a64e584a0aa3bb4d7c8c8ff547.jpg

 

As seen here. Since this rake is the work of three different modellers (Tony Geary, Alan Buckenham and me, plus the modified RTR cars) with three different painting techniques, the colour matches aren't too bad, though the SP RSO is a little brighter than the rest. 

 

1178725456_Retford11A3onTalisman.jpg.7574a701bed903a3779d1b786e059b61.jpg

 

And Retford's 'Talisman' (seen before). This has a carmine/cream BSO at the rear (temporarily provided by me, because no one knows what happened to the maroon one). 

 

The substitution of a CC car was not that uncommon. 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

I’m surprised you say that about my SPM BSOs. They are from the ‘Etchmaster’ range, so they are etched brass sides on a donor coach, painted with Ford Burgundy red. Six of the eight coaches in the train are kit built and have the same paint finish, so if anything is an outlier it’s the Bachmann CK next to the BSO! I’ve done a colour comparison.

47C1E034-583B-4E24-8D48-DE75F4290633.jpeg.616030a839b7ab151fd07853ddb61977.jpeg

 

This shows the SPM BSO (right), a Bachmann SK (centre) and a SPM Mk 1 prototype (E3083) from their colourmaster range (left). In terms of finish, the Ford Burgundy red is slightly lighter than the Bachmann colour but quite within my acceptable range. The Colourmaster (pre printed sides like you just built) is perhaps a better match colour wise to the Bachmann but is glossier.

 

For me all these differences are OK. My top priority is always getting the correct formation and (if I can’t have the best of both worlds), I’d rather have a poor model of the correct diagram than a good model of the wrong diagram. I appreciate that others will have different priorities.

 

By the way, the problem becomes worse with Crimson and Cream liveries where there are two colours to match and in this case the SPM colourmaster stands out more. 

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

Thanks Andy,

 

My apologies, though the colours did seem different to me in your elevated shot of the train on the viaduct. 

 

And, I don't think you've got a 'poor' model of the correct diagram. You've got excellent models of the correct diagram. 

 

Please see my post above regarding different colours in my rake............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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16 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Just out of interest what make / type of superglue did you use ?. I have one loco (O gauge) with a loose nylon gear press fitted onto the axle. It needs some sort of glue, what would you recommend ?

 

Brit15

Good morning Apollo,

 

Which glue? MXBon 606. Bought for £2.00 a bottle (20g) from Boyes in Grantham (a discount store). I've not seen this glue anywhere else. It's really runny. The 601 version is slightly more-viscous (though what's in between, I have no idea, and I could have it the wrong way round!). It's far cheaper (though no less-effective) than other brands I've used. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andy,

 

My apologies, though the colours did seem different to me in your elevated shot of the train on the viaduct. 

 

And, I don't think you've got a 'poor' model of the correct diagram. You've got excellent models of the correct diagram. 

 

Please see my post above regarding different colours in my rake............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony,

 

Constructive criticism is always welcome and the colour match with the Bachmann is not quite right - I just think it’s the Bachmann I need to change if anything. Examining the rake in more detail has made me realise that the Bachmann CK is wrong anyway on two counts.

1. It should be an SK for 1957 - the SK was swapped for a CK in 1958; and 

2. The CK has a yellow line above the first class section (post c.1961?).

 

So I need to do some swapping around!

 

There’s always something to stop me getting on with scenic work!

 

Regards

 

Andy

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51 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Yes, that does seem to be a typical comment and expectation at exhibitions - and consequently the relentless pressure and need to keep trains running around the layout when operating at an exhibition. However, I do wonder if it is a realistic expectation or one that is universally held. Does everyone just go to exhibitions to see something happening on a layout? Sometime, at exhibitions, I want to see inspirational and great examples of railway modelling. I don't always want to see trains whizzing around. And if they are stationary it is often easier to see and inspect them.

 

 

An interesting observation as I find what 'grips' varies show by show and perhaps some layouts are best kept as magazine features. I also find that when you are at shows as an exhibitor/trader, therefore with far less time to see things, the same factor that applies in advertising theory applies. As you walk past there is a very short time to get your attention versus what causes you to walk on, as a paying visitor with a full day available, you can look closely and then savour (or not) the details. That said though, even with time, something needs to make you want to stay and watch, for many that is movement, therefore seeing the trains go past ; there are modellers who feel that the cameos like a house fire and flashing yellow lights do it. They are undoubtedly noticeable, whether they make you stay or walk on is ......????? 

 

An example - I remember being at Warley one year when Lime Street was there. Stunning architectural modelling and best seen in the period before the show opened when we were in the hall early for breakfast. Viewed as a static model with no punters in the way it gripped, later in the show crowds round, you couldn't see it properly and the trains were hidden. Had I been there as a paying customer I would probably have been disappointed by it as visually it was fairly dead when you couldn't get close enough to see the architectural details (other than possibly a chunk of over-roof  past someone's shoulder) or view it as a whole due to the distracting view blocker crowds.

 

Another example (I won't mention the layout's name) made by a leading modeller and revered was, when I finally saw it, one of the most boring layouts for overall interest I've ever seen in the flesh. I am not slagging off the modelling, I wish I could model to his standard, but to me it had no grip factor when seen, nor would it have had any great operational interest if you owned it. Conversely, seen as photographs in MRJ, with history of the company etc., and in books with the 'how I did its" added it was interesting!  A model of somewhere quiet in the middle of nowhere.

 

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The only time I have enjoyed watching Lime Street was when the barriers once got pushed right up to it. Wait your turn to get to that position and you could see into the overall roof and the movements taking place within. 

 

I do agree that at shows it is important to try and keep something moving as much as practically possible. Everyone's opinion of 'correct' operation will be different of course but you get far more people seemingly interested if there is plenty of movement. 

 

I hate seeing layouts where the operators are stood around doing nothing looking board whilst nothing is moving on scene. Even if Stoke Summit's operation was boring at least it kept something moving.

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25 minutes ago, john new said:

An interesting observation as I find what 'grips' varies show by show and perhaps some layouts are best kept as magazine features. I also find that when you are at shows as an exhibitor/trader, therefore with far less time to see things, the same factor that applies in advertising theory applies. As you walk past there is a very short time to get your attention versus what causes you to walk on, as a paying visitor with a full day available, you can look closely and then savour (or not) the details. That said though, even with time, something needs to make you want to stay and watch, for many that is movement, therefore seeing the trains go past ; there are modellers who feel that the cameos like a house fire and flashing yellow lights do it. They are undoubtedly noticeable, whether they make you stay or walk on is ......????? 

 

An example - I remember being at Warley one year when Lime Street was there. Stunning architectural modelling and best seen in the period before the show opened when we were in the hall early for breakfast. Viewed as a static model with no punters in the way it gripped, later in the show crowds round, you couldn't see it properly and the trains were hidden. Had I been there as a paying customer I would probably have been disappointed by it as visually it was fairly dead when you couldn't get close enough to see the architectural details (other than possibly a chunk of over-roof  past someone's shoulder) or view it as a whole due to the distracting view blocker crowds.

 

Another example (I won't mention the layout's name) made by a leading modeller and revered was, when I finally saw it, one of the most boring layouts for overall interest I've ever seen in the flesh. I am not slagging off the modelling, I wish I could model to his standard, but to me it had no grip factor when seen, nor would it have had any great operational interest if you owned it. Conversely, seen as photographs in MRJ, with history of the company etc., and in books with the 'how I did its" added it was interesting!  A model of somewhere quiet in the middle of nowhere.

 

Hi John

 

You have mentioned a big layout which looks good but little movement, which is a turn off for me. Small layouts with limited movement do hold my attention as they look right.

 

I also dislike layouts where there has to be something moving that don't look realistic. I suppose my favorite type of layout where the movement is regular and the modelling good. Could I build one to that standard, that is a big question?

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1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

Yes, that does seem to be a typical comment and expectation at exhibitions - and consequently the relentless pressure and need to keep trains running around the layout when operating at an exhibition. However, I do wonder if it is a realistic expectation or one that is universally held. Does everyone just go to exhibitions to see something happening on a layout? Sometime, at exhibitions, I want to see inspirational and great examples of railway modelling. I don't always want to see trains whizzing around. And if they are stationary it is often easier to see and inspect them.

 

Quite.  I could gladly stand and look at layouts like Copenhagen Fields, Wibdenshaw, LB, Pendon or your buildings @grahamefor hours, without any trains running at all.  

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20 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

You have mentioned a big layout which looks good but little movement, which is a turn off for me. Small layouts with limited movement do hold my attention as they look right.

 

I also dislike layouts where there has to be something moving that don't look realistic. I suppose my favorite type of layout where the movement is regular and the modelling good. Could I build one to that standard, that is a big question?

 

When it appears right, yes concur. Copenhagen Fields like @Northmoor mentioned works. I often don't notice the trains on it the scene is so enthralling.  That is mainly though because the colours are right. There was a layout on YouTube recently mentioned by a magazine as a must watch - scenery excellent and weathered nicely (hope mine gets to be as good) with bog-standard r-t-r stock straight out of the box. The fact the scenery was good made the stock look even more obviously train-set.

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A modelling question for the experts on here - I recently found one or two of my wagons were derailing through a set of points. Checking identifies it is the b-2-b on them that is out not a track fault,  they are too closely spaced on the axle. (Even the go half of my ancient but reliable C&L go/no gauge won't fit into the gap).

 

What techniques do people use to widen them out evenly? Putting them over not quite closed vice jaws and tapping the axle is obviously going to wreck the pin point so a non-starter - some form of gap expander? 

Edited by john new
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In my experience finger pressure should be enough to gently ease the wheels into the correct position. It can be annoying sometimes when some wheels decide to stay put until a lot of force is used and then move by a large amount or come off the axle completely though!

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