Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

14 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

Comments like this are heartening to read. HOWEVER, could I postulate that neither of you - nor I suspect most on this thread (including myself) - necessarily represent the 50th percentile average exhibition visitor?

 

I was once surprised (initially) to hear a statistic from a preserved railway that had done an analysis of visitors. They reckoned that only 10% of visitors were 'serious' (whatever that means) railway enthusiasts. The other 90% were more the general public looking for a interesting / rewarding day out. They could just as easily have gone to Alton Towers or a safari park in that sense.

 

I wonder, therefore, whether there is a similar thing going on at exhibitions? And is that in turn driving the 'demand' for trains constantly running? I'm not talking about specialist shows (obviously) but the mainstream shows - large or small - that the general public might typically attend.

 

I suspect that that 10% figure is somewhat higher at a model railway exhibition, although - as in the preserved line case - there are degrees of 'seriousness'(!) Nevertheless, I pretty convinced that most of us here are over on the right hand side of the normal distribution curve and not truly representative of yer average exhibition demographic. And it's 'Mr average exhibition attender' who does not 'get' the intricacies of railway operation or necessarily appreciate building techniques. 

 

I also wonder whether that demographic has shifted over the years?

I think you are absolutely right Graham.

 

But (as with you, there's always a but!) as I've said before somewhere (possibly here, a few hundred pages ago) shouldn't we be walking in the foosteps of Lord Reith's BBC, aiming to "Inform, educate and entertain"?

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Fingers and thumb on the wheels, and twist

 

12 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I usually find a twisting motion on the wheels allows them to be eased outwards slightly

I always have great difficulty keeping the wheels centralised on the axle when I do this. Any tips?

[t-b-g]

7 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

At the annual Adelaide Model Railway Exhibition there are two main awards:

One by popular vote by the public and

One voted by a group of judges

 

Its not very often that the one layout wins both but sometimes the winner of one is 2nd or 3rd in the other category. Last time (2019) I think the popular vote may have gone to the Lego layout - it certainly polled well if my memory serves me right but it wouldn't have got any placing by the judges!

 

My fictious home layout (still very much under development scenically) fits the category that Tony Gee likes to operate as its designed as an operators layout but it is still a roundy-roundy so I can just run trains whilst I'm out there modelling something (in fact I can run 5 continuously as its two layouts in one really (like LB but they're not at 90 degrees to each other). I hate to think how many real miles some of my locos may have covered - they're the kit built ones and my favourites otherwise they might have failed by now. When I have operators around its theoretically possible to operate 9 locos independently and its not DCC. I would need at least 6 operators to run 9, preferably 7 operators.

 

I'll try to take some photos that show the design of the layout as I don't have a decent track plan - would take too long to draw up properly.

 

Andrew 

 

That does sound fascinating and I would like to see some photos please.

 

When we exhibited Narrow Road, we had a sequence that ran for an hour in real time and was really intensive. I can't remember exactly how many trains ran in and out of the terminus in that time but it was around one a minute. It was just possible to do it with 6 operators who were really on the ball. Not necessarily highly skilled but who could concentrate and always be ready when it was their turn. The most locos we ever had moving at one go was 5. This on a 24ft terminus layout.

 

We used to get a good crowd watching as it was a good crossover type of layout. It had things to interest the serious modeller plus lots of action. If we had an operator on the goods yard at the front who liked interacting with the public, it added a good element too. They could explain what was going on and could also get the younger watchers to "help" by choosing which wagons should go where.

 

All through my modelling, I have always found layouts where the trains do things operationally more interesting than those that have them going round one after another and in many ways, Narrow Road although technically Ken's layout, was designed by me as my take on Buckingham. A 4 platform terminus with a reasonable goods yard and a loco shed. It was built long before I ever dreamed I would have the real Buckingham to play with.

 

In theory, on the extended version, we could now also have up to 9 running at once but in the interests of sanity and the fact that there are usually just two of us and no spectators to entertain, we have slowed it down so we each run one at a time, unless we do a bit of shunting while a train goes along the main line from one end to the other.

 

 

[Tony Teague]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Why do "proper modellers" have to look down their noses and come over all "superior" about people who choose a different path in the hobby?

 

I took a layout to a show once and the cup for the most popular layout voted by the members of the public went to the sort of layout being discussed. All the cliches and then some. Yet it was the most popular layout in a show that had a full range of layouts of all types, periods, areas, scales and quality levels.

 

 

In case my posting of the Miniatur Wonderland link should be taken in any way as being derogatory, I should just say that whilst I think of myself as a relatively serious modeller, I am hoping that once all this covid stuff is over I shall be able to visit Hamburg and see it. To me, it is a stunning endeavour, cliches or not, and I fully share the view that the is room in our hobby for all ends of the spectrum.

[Compound2632]

So, where does Burntisland 1883 sit in all this? It's a P4 layout, attempting a faithful depiction of a particular location at a particular time, with appropriate stock, but has plenty of gimmicks, such as the loading and unloading of wagons from the train ferry, coal hoist, and webcam in the roundhouse. Plenty of entertainment. I gather it has had a number of very successful outings to non-model-railway events in its home area. It also has "interpreters" - exhibitors whose function it is to explain to the punters what they are looking at and respond to their questions or indeed just share their enthusiasm.

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, westerner said:

I would disagree with your last Statement. I'll go to small village hall type shows to keep the hobby visible in places where people may not be able to go to the larger exhibitions. Occasionally  you will find a gem. Also at exhibitions such as Spalding You will see all sorts of layouts and all sorts of visitors from young families having a day out to skilled modellers looking at excellent layouts.

Whose last statement are you disagreeing with please, Alan?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, sandra said:

Tony,

I have more news of the Ivatt 4MT. I tried it today on the GC. However it didn’t want to go round the bends at either end although it had been fine on the GN. It transpired that the wheels on the pony truck were fouling the guard irons. So after they were straightened she has worked very well and I have placed her on a short GC goods train.

Here she is on the GC section with this goods train.

Here she has just crossed the flat crossing heading east and is passing another goods waiting to go west.

The V2 is now hauling the 15.05 Kings Cross to Niddrie goods (Scotch Goods). I’m sure a V2 did sometimes haul this train but I suspect it was more usually a pacific but she has no trouble hauling this long train and I think she looks the part.

Here’s the same train heading under the bridge at Babworth. It’s passing the new Crossing Keepers cottage. There was a level crossing at this point but the crossing was replaced in the 1930s by the bridge shown here.
 

The Crossing Keepers cottage was recently sent to me by Chas Dougan. Some years ago Roy had persuaded Steve Turnbull to build the cottage but unfortunately Steve died before he finished it. Chas has now finished it and he has very kindly passed it to me. He has finished it very well and I’m very pleased to have it on Retford. Roy had a particularly vivid term to describe our Scottish friends which I will not repeat. It’s alright,  they knew what he called them  and they didn’t seem to mind.

Sandra

Guilty as charged, Sandra. 

 

I added the guard irons to the Ivatt. Then (as usual), I discovered that later in the locos' lives the frame-mounted guard irons were removed (Retford's period might just be on the cusp of that happening). 

 

Anyway, despite my attempts to 'cock it up', I'm delighted it's now running fine (on the GC as well). Who knows, it might even be the same one I saw at Kiveton Park in 1958! And, even the cab/tender roof discrepancy isn't so noticeable on the layout. Brendan (Beechnut) will be delighted! 

 

I'm also delighted you're delighted with the V2 (how many 'delighteds' can one fit in a post?. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[westerner]

This one Tony by Micklner

 

"The people who are interested in correct scale etc  etc would normally be the ones seen at Finscale exhibitions not shows as you describe them."

 

That's the problem with your thread Tony it moves too fast.

[grahame]

5 minutes ago, westerner said:

 

That's the problem with your thread Tony it moves too fast.

 

And there's me thinking that the majority of people like to see things moving, especially at exhibitions.

 

;-)

 

[Tony Wright]

15 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Why do "proper modellers" have to look down their noses and come over all "superior" about people who choose a different path in the hobby?

 

I took a layout to a show once and the cup for the most popular layout voted by the members of the public went to the sort of layout being discussed. All the cliches and then some. Yet it was the most popular layout in a show that had a full range of layouts of all types, periods, areas, scales and quality levels.

 

A few "serious" modellers were downright upset. I just smiled and thought to myself that if the people behind the winning layout had enjoyed building it and the public enjoyed seeing it, then I couldn't see why anybody should have a problem with that.

  

 

 

 

If I come into the category you mention, I've never really considered myself a 'proper modeller', Tony. 'Proper modellers' make everything by/for themselves, model in the correct gauge and are rarely (if ever) 'critical' of what others do. 

 

I'm not sure it's a case of 'looking down noses'; my list was the sort of thing I dislike seeing at shows (though no more of a dislike than watching beautifully-crafted, highly-accurate representations of prototype locations where nothing can get from one end to the other without falling off!). In fact, many of the layouts I 'dislike' often work very well, with trains fizzing around everywhere).

 

My judging colleague and I gave the 'Most-Entertaining' pot to the layout I mentioned because it deserved it. We were not being patronising. In fact, their were several awards, so more-accurate (though less-entertaining?) layouts won some of those (which we awarded). 

 

My main take on this 'debate' is that often the 'cliche-full' layouts have been built with great skill, and I'm puzzled why those skills have not been complemented by observation of the real thing. Yesterday, Mo and I took our thrice-weekly walk through our village (which, as you know, is dominated by the ECML). Granted, we live in 'restricted' times, but, as we passed St. Medard's, no ceremony was taking place (even in 'normal' times, the church is rarely used). No cars collided with each other, no buildings combusted, there were no road works (though, with all the potholes, there should be) and no flashing lights. Granted, the nearest windmill is just a stump, but the main activity was the passage of the trains. 

 

Anyway, using a cliche, the hobby is a 'broad church', and long may that be the case.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

In case my posting of the Miniatur Wonderland link should be taken in any way as being derogatory, I should just say that whilst I think of myself as a relatively serious modeller, I am hoping that once all this covid stuff is over I shall be able to visit Hamburg and see it. To me, it is a stunning endeavour, cliches or not, and I fully share the view that the is room in our hobby for all ends of the spectrum.

Miniatur Wunderland is a fantastic place, a modeller's paradise - but it's about as far removed from a 'serious' model railway (in the sense of prototypicality) as you're likely to find. It has at least two mesmeric roadway systems (each with what must be 50 - 100 vehicles whizzing about without ever seemingly crashing into each other or veering off course), a fully working airport with aeroplanes taxing to and from the terminal and taking off / landing (also with road service vehicles whizzing about), boats sailing up and down a Fjord ... You can't fail to be impressed by the ingenuity of some of that engineering in miniature.

 

It's the sheer spectacle of the place and the number of 'Mum! look at that!!' moments that make it what it is - a hugely successful tourist attraction. Ergo it HAS to have the cliches to make it viable.

 

I'm sure you will enjoy your visit.

[St Enodoc]

15 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'Proper modellers' make everything by/for themselves, model in the correct gauge and are rarely (if ever) 'critical' of what others do. 

Rubbish (I was going to use a stronger word, beginning with 'B', but decided not to) and you know it Tony.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

So, where does Burntisland 1883 sit in all this? It's a P4 layout, attempting a faithful depiction of a particular location at a particular time, with appropriate stock, but has plenty of gimmicks, such as the loading and unloading of wagons from the train ferry, coal hoist, and webcam in the roundhouse. Plenty of entertainment. I gather it has had a number of very successful outings to non-model-railway events in its home area. It also has "interpreters" - exhibitors whose function it is to explain to the punters what they are looking at and respond to their questions or indeed just share their enthusiasm.

I have seen it 3 if not 4 times at public exhibitions and have never seen trains running for any length of time.

While the attention to detail is superb the basic element of being a working model railway seems from my experience to be in need of some serious attention. 

Hearing comments from other visitors I am not alone in my opinion.

Why it keeps getting invitations is beyond me.

It 

Bernard

[Chamby]

A good club exhibition will have a variety of layouts - examples of top quality modelling, layouts with trains rattling by in quick succession to entertain, layouts with more engrossing operational stuff going on, and of course something for the kids. And trade stalls that sell more than just grotty old Triang Hornby stuff.

 

What makes the biggest difference for me at exhibitions though, is that (whatever the layout), the operators are focused on putting on a show for the paying public.  Far too often, I see layouts with not a lot going on, apart from ‘operators’ chatting amongst themselves and regarding the event as primarily a social opportunity.

 

As is so often the case, it’s not what you do, it’s the way that you do it....

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have seen it 3 if not 4 times at public exhibitions and have never seen trains running for any length of time.

While the attention to detail is superb the basic element of being a working model railway seems from my experience to be in need of some serious attention. 

Hearing comments from other visitors I am not alone in my opinion.

Why it keeps getting invitations is beyond me.

It 

Bernard

 

That is wildly at variance with my experience, having seen it a couple of times, most recently at Warley in 2019 - with the new  roundhouse. There was plenty of activity both goods and passenger - far more than the prototype would justify! Where did you see it? And what are your expectations for frequency of trains running? Are you only satisfied by layouts depicting 4-track main lines? I've seen quite a number of highly-rated exhibition layouts were there has been nothing happening for long periods - though that does at least have the virtue of being true to prototype. Clutton is an example that springs to mind.

[bbishop]

38 minutes ago, westerner said:

This one Tony by Micklner

 

"The people who are interested in correct scale etc  etc would normally be the ones seen at Finscale exhibitions not shows as you describe them."

 

That's the problem with your thread Tony it moves too fast.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, could we please operate this thread at the correct prototypical speed.

 

And of course, there was once a layout at Scalefourum, which on the Sunday displayed the notice "There wasn't a Sunday service on the prototype, so we are not running one either."

 

Bill

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

If I come into the category you mention, I've never really considered myself a 'proper modeller', Tony. 'Proper modellers' make everything by/for themselves, model in the correct gauge and are rarely (if ever) 'critical' of what others do. 

 

I'm not sure it's a case of 'looking down noses'; my list was the sort of thing I dislike seeing at shows (though no more of a dislike than watching beautifully-crafted, highly-accurate representations of prototype locations where nothing can get from one end to the other without falling off! In fact, many of the layouts I 'dislike' often work very well, with trains fizzing around everywhere).

 

My judging colleague and I gave the 'Most-Entertaining' pot to the layout I mentioned because it deserved it. We were not being patronising. In fact, their were several awards, so more-accurate (though less-entertaining?) layouts won some of those (which we awarded). 

 

My main take on this 'debate' is that often the 'cliche-full' layouts have been built with great skill, and I'm puzzled why those skills have not been complemented by observation of the real thing. Yesterday, Mo and I took our thrice-weekly walk through our village (which, as you know, is dominated by the ECML). Granted, we live in 'restricted' times, but, as we passed St. Medard's, no ceremony was taking place (even in 'normal' times, the church is rarely used). No cars collided with each other, no buildings combusted, there were no road works (though, with all the potholes, there should be) and no flashing lights. Granted, the nearest windmill is just a stump, but the main activity was the passage of the trains. 

 

Anyway, using a cliche, the hobby is a 'broad church', and long may that be the case.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Of course there is a wedding at the church on Buckingham! I think Peter liked to imagine that it was a model of him "in action" in his "day job". I bet he got the "uniform details" spot on! No car accidents or flashing lights though.

 

Looking at photos of the earlier Buckinghams, even the present version when first built, there was much less "clutter" and I think it looked better. Somebody once suggested that I backdate the layout by 20 years and the idea has some merit but I don't fancy repairing card platforms and roads when items have been glued on. Si it will stay as it is. It is supposed to be market day, so it would probably be busy anyway.

 

In my experience, there are at least two main categories of people in the hobby. There are those that want to build models and layouts to the best of their ability and who want to learn and improve. There are those who are quite happy doing what they do at the level they are already at and don't really want become highly skilled, finescale modellers seeking to build a truly authentic layout. They just enjoy the hobby and have some fun along the way.

 

I put myself firmly in the first group and I am always willing to learn and improve. My fun comes from making something that looks just right when I have finished it and when it runs nicely on a layout that is enjoyable to operate.. If any of the stuff I have learned over the last 40 years is of any use in helping others, I am happy to pass that on.

 

But I don't see the need to impose "improvement" on the second group whether they want it or not. I am happy to accept that not everybody wants to follow the hobby my way.

[-missy-]

22 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'Proper modellers' make everything by/for themselves

Tony.

 

Hi.

 

Like machines to make their own gears....?

 

 

 

Missy.

 

[t-b-g]

Just now, bbishop said:

 

Ladies and gentlemen, could we please operate this thread at the correct prototypical speed.

 

And of course, there was once a layout at Scalefourum, which on the Sunday displayed the notice "There wasn't a Sunday service on the prototype, so we are not running one either."

 

Bill

 

Way back in the day, when my brother used to help out at exhibitions, we were at a show one weekend and he (very tongue in cheek) refused to run trains as he was in ASLEF and they were on strike at that time. So we made a little placard and placed it outside the station to say that there would be a reduced service due to industrial action. Then we just ran the trains normally!

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

So, where does Burntisland 1883 sit in all this? It's a P4 layout, attempting a faithful depiction of a particular location at a particular time, with appropriate stock, but has plenty of gimmicks, such as the loading and unloading of wagons from the train ferry, coal hoist, and webcam in the roundhouse. Plenty of entertainment. I gather it has had a number of very successful outings to non-model-railway events in its home area. It also has "interpreters" - exhibitors whose function it is to explain to the punters what they are looking at and respond to their questions or indeed just share their enthusiasm.

In my view, it belongs in a museum, beneath a glass case.

 

This is not in any way meant to be a derogatory comment; quite the opposite. It is a simply stunning piece of model making from an era rarely modelled. The amount of research and careful recreation of such a scene in miniature is breath-taking and such work deserves to be preserved into perpetuity as a valuable educational glimpse into the past.

 

It puts me in mind of the model that was created of Birkenhead Woodside station as it was at a specific moment in time (1936 I think it was, when the Mersey road tunnel was opened?). That was on display at Birkenhead town hall, opposite Hamilton Square station. Another wonderful piece of modelling. Anyone else remember seeing it?

[Bernard Lamb]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is wildly at variance with my experience, having seen it a couple of times, most recently at Warley in 2019 - with the new  roundhouse. There was plenty of activity both goods and passenger - far more than the prototype would justify! Where did you see it? And what are your expectations for frequency of trains running? Are you only satisfied by layouts depicting 4-track main lines? I've seen quite a number of highly-rated exhibition layouts were there has been nothing happening for long periods - though that does at least have the virtue of being true to prototype. Clutton is an example that springs to mind.

It is the standard of running not the frequency that offends.

Far too much finger poking.

Bernard

[Steven B]

10 hours ago, john new said:

I can’t remember the year but one year I was on the SLS stand at Warley, and when I looked back at the show in memory a few days later, of the other stands only the always impressive G1 live steam and the Lego trains had made any impression.

 

My Dad used to take me to the Manchester Exhibition in the late 1980s. Apart from the dated decor of the building just one layout remains in my memory - a large scale tram set-up with the trams running on square of black plywood. I was very pleased to see again at Warley a few years ago!

 

My main interest is the late 1980s modelled in N. It's perhaps natural that I'm drawn to such layouts, yet it's still surprises me what gets me coming back for more. Seeing Buckingham for the same time was interesting - clearly dated and of its time but made up for by the operation which I was enthralled by. I've spent hours watching the trains go by on Stoke Bank, and kept returning to an American outline 7mm narrow gauge logging layout that was exceptionally well modelled. Meanwhile, apart from the shed area, Gresley Beat didn't grab me at all.

 

Am I alone in wishing that sometimes you'd rather spend time studying the contents of the fiddle yard than viewing the scenic section?

 

Steven B.

[seahorse]

I was helping on a friend's roundy-roundy and fiddle yard layout.

 

A young lad said "do you know what's wrong with this layout, mister? You've only got these two tracks at the front to see trains, and you've got all those trains at the back that we can't see. It's the wrong way round!"

 

 

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

In case my posting of the Miniatur Wonderland link should be taken in any way as being derogatory, I should just say that whilst I think of myself as a relatively serious modeller, I am hoping that once all this covid stuff is over I shall be able to visit Hamburg and see it. To me, it is a stunning endeavour, cliches or not, and I fully share the view that the is room in our hobby for all ends of the spectrum.

I highly recommend a visit to Miniature Wonderland. Yes, there are gimmicks aplenty,  but there is also superb modelmaking and some amazing technology. Ive been 3 times now, always spending a full day.

[St Enodoc]

12 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

In my view, it belongs in a museum, beneath a glass case.

 

This is not in any way meant to be a derogatory comment; quite the opposite. It is a simply stunning piece of model making from an era rarely modelled. The amount of research and careful recreation of such a scene in miniature is breath-taking and such work deserves to be preserved into perpetuity as a valuable educational glimpse into the past.

 

It puts me in mind of the model that was created of Birkenhead Woodside station as it was at a specific moment in time (1936 I think it was, when the Mersey road tunnel was opened?). That was on display at Birkenhead town hall, opposite Hamilton Square station. Another wonderful piece of modelling. Anyone else remember seeing it?

Sorry, I wasn't around in 1936...