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55 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It is the standard of running not the frequency that offends.

Far too much finger poking.

 

But that wasn't your intial criticism, or if it was intended to be, not how it cam across. It appeared to be lack of activity that you were complaining of:

  

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have seen it 3 if not 4 times at public exhibitions and have never seen trains running for any length of time.

While the attention to detail is superb the basic element of being a working model railway seems from my experience to be in need of some serious attention. 

 

Although your second sentence can be re-evaluated in the light of your second comment.

 

55 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

In my view, it belongs in a museum, beneath a glass case.

 

But then one would lose the pleasure to be had from all the working features and trains running*. Moreover, it is essentially an interactive layout, with the interpreters there to engage the viewers.

 

*On a good day, pace Bernard.

 

47 minutes ago, seahorse said:

I was helping on a friend's roundy-roundy and fiddle yard layout.

 

A young lad said "do you know what's wrong with this layout, mister? You've only got these two tracks at the front to see trains, and you've got all those trains at the back that we can't see. It's the wrong way round!"

 

I'm with the young lad there! Roundy-roundies should be exhibited in the round so that rubbernecking fiddle-yard gawpers such as myself have the opportunity to admire the exquisitely-modelled stock while it's standing still, so that one can properly appreciate it.

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17 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I highly recommend a visit to Miniature Wonderland. Yes, there are gimmicks aplenty,  but there is also superb modelmaking and some amazing technology. Ive been 3 times now, always spending a full day.

 

A day wasn't enough when my wife and I went there a few years ago. But I must admit that by the time we got to the Scandinavian bit, I was starting to saturate. I think we must have spent an hour just gawping at the incredible airport.

 

What it is is entirely orthogonal to finescale modelling, but very well done for what it is, and at least when we were there, it all worked

flawlessly.

 

I think they've added a few areas since we were there so a return visit must be on the cards one day.

 

Al

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35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm with the young lad there! Roundy-roundies should be exhibited in the round so that rubbernecking fiddle-yard gawpers such as myself have the opportunity to admire the exquisitely-modelled stock while it's standing still, so that one can properly appreciate it.

 

If you ask most layouts will let you have a look around the back. Big problem with having a fiddle yard on display as it is far too easy for people to "pick up" to "look at" items...

 

Few people ask.. but they are generally welcomed to have a "look"..

 

Baz

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3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

When we exhibited Narrow Road, we had a sequence that ran for an hour in real time and was really intensive. I can't remember exactly how many trains ran in and out of the terminus in that time but it was around one a minute. It was just possible to do it with 6 operators who were really on the ball. Not necessarily highly skilled but who could concentrate and always be ready when it was their turn. The most locos we ever had moving at one go was 5. This on a 24ft terminus layout.

 

 

Narrow Road has always been a personal favourite of mine; the Station Building is superb in itself.  I did consider the layout once as a possible candidate for building my own version, but quickly discounted it when I realised I just don't have the space.  We've all been there, done that I'm sure.....

Will it ever be exhibited again do you think, or is it now a stay-at-home layout?

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49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Roundy-roundies should be exhibited in the round

 

The trouble with that is that too many of the enthusiastic fiddle yard gawpers are (1) too handsy with the stock and (2) too distracting for the operators.

 

If there's someone round there to field questions and slap wrists, no problem, but it's not often you have the luxury of a spare body like that at a show.

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19 minutes ago, Barry O said:

If you ask most layouts will let you have a look around the back. Big problem with having a fiddle yard on display as it is far too easy for people to "pick up" to "look at" items...

 

Ah, but my experience there is that one can never get to ask a question about the stock from the front, as all but one of the operators are clustered around the fiddle yard leaving the chap at the front avoiding eye contact to stay fully focused on running the train. So, it's evident that if the fiddle yard was freely accessible, it would be closely supervised. (Straight end-to-end or terminus-to-fiddle yard layouts are more rewarding for the stock-spotter.)

 

EDIT: posing crossed with Jonathan, who gives the case for the defence.

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

My Dad used to take me to the Manchester Exhibition in the late 1980s. Apart from the dated decor of the building just one layout remains in my memory - a large scale tram set-up with the trams running on square of black plywood. I was very pleased to see again at Warley a few years ago!

 

My main interest is the late 1980s modelled in N. It's perhaps natural that I'm drawn to such layouts, yet it's still surprises me what gets me coming back for more. Seeing Buckingham for the same time was interesting - clearly dated and of its time but made up for by the operation which I was enthralled by. I've spent hours watching the trains go by on Stoke Bank, and kept returning to an American outline 7mm narrow gauge logging layout that was exceptionally well modelled. Meanwhile, apart from the shed area, Gresley Beat didn't grab me at all.

 

Am I alone in wishing that sometimes you'd rather spend time studying the contents of the fiddle yard than viewing the scenic section?

 

Steven B.

 

The fiddle yarss on London Road  attracted a lot of attention. Unfortunately viewers often wanted to discuss the models with the operators, etc. so distracting them from keeping the schedule running properly to entertain those looking at the layout. In the end I  had to build up the FY surrounds to shut off the fiddle yards. The high surrounds were then used to display photos of the stock and details of the layout, the LNWR, etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It is the standard of running not the frequency that offends.

Far too much finger poking.

Bernard

 

Finger poking is, in my view, something that affects too many layouts at exhibitions, irrespective of scale/gauge.

Poor running was an occasional issue on Burntisland when I saw it several times. Sadly, because it is P4 that opens it up to a lot of flak, as I found with London Road. For that reason we had to ensure that any running problems were avoided as far as possible. The track was cleaned in the morning before any running at an exhibition, ant piece of stock that played up was removed and sorted, etc,

 

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

If I come into the category you mention, I've never really considered myself a 'proper modeller', Tony. 'Proper modellers' make everything by/for themselves, model in the correct gauge and are rarely (if ever) 'critical' of what others do. 

 

I'm not sure it's a case of 'looking down noses'; my list was the sort of thing I dislike seeing at shows (though no more of a dislike than watching beautifully-crafted, highly-accurate representations of prototype locations where nothing can get from one end to the other without falling off! In fact, many of the layouts I 'dislike' often work very well, with trains fizzing around everywhere).

 

My judging colleague and I gave the 'Most-Entertaining' pot to the layout I mentioned because it deserved it. We were not being patronising. In fact, their were several awards, so more-accurate (though less-entertaining?) layouts won some of those (which we awarded). 

 

My main take on this 'debate' is that often the 'cliche-full' layouts have been built with great skill, and I'm puzzled why those skills have not been complemented by observation of the real thing. Yesterday, Mo and I took our thrice-weekly walk through our village (which, as you know, is dominated by the ECML). Granted, we live in 'restricted' times, but, as we passed St. Medard's, no ceremony was taking place (even in 'normal' times, the church is rarely used). No cars collided with each other, no buildings combusted, there were no road works (though, with all the potholes, there should be) and no flashing lights. Granted, the nearest windmill is just a stump, but the main activity was the passage of the trains. 

 

Anyway, using a cliche, the hobby is a 'broad church', and long may that be the case.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Tony,

 

I have to disagree with you. Railway modelling is not a Broad Church, it is a number of different places of worship, chapels, synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc,  with different religions. 

 

Those that follow one way of worship don't always understand and appreciate another. We should accept that people have different interests but we don't have to share them.

 

Jol

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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, but my experience there is that one can never get to ask a question about the stock from the front, as all but one of the operators are clustered around the fiddle yard leaving the chap at the front avoiding eye contact to stay fully focused on running the train. So, it's evident that if the fiddle yard was freely accessible, it would be closely supervised. (Straight end-to-end or terminus-to-fiddle yard layouts are more rewarding for the stock-spotter.)

 

EDIT: posing crossed with Jonathan, who gives the case for the defence.

well you haven't seen Grantham, Shap, Herculaneum Dock  or Chapel en Le Frith then... but we are not "awash" with operators inside the layout .. rotas for operators mean any time you get a break you need one...

 

Baz

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10 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I have to disagree with you. Railway modelling is not a Broad Church, it is a number of different places of worship, chapels, synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc,  with different religions. 

 

Judean peoples front ? :D

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Just now, Barry O said:

well you haven't seen Grantham, Shap, Herculaneum Dock  or Chapel en Le Frith then... but we are not "awash" with operators inside the layout .. rotas for operators mean any time you get a break you need one...

 

Of those, I have only seen Shap, at Warley. But I accept your point that large layouts need many bodies - perhaps part of the problem is that too many large exhibition layouts are in fact too large for the number of people available - so have been missing out on that element of interpretation and interaction with the public that might help draw more into the hobby. (Though that's probably reuled out for post-covid exhibiting; having all the operators on the fiddle yard side will probably be necessary to maintain social distancing from the public.)

 

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14 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I have to disagree with you. Railway modelling is not a Broad Church, it is a number of different places of worship, chapels, synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc,  with different religions. 

 

... and each regarding the other as heretical. 

 

I suppose I'm a modelling Anglo-Catholic - working in 00 but aspiring to finescale standards of appearance!

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... and each regarding the other as heretical. 

 

I suppose I'm a modelling Anglo-Catholic - working in 00 but aspiring to finescale standards of appearance!

 

Heathen, You'll burn in hell for that....:D

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17 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

I have to disagree with you. Railway modelling is not a Broad Church, it is a number of different places of worship, chapels, synagogues, churches, mosques, temples, etc,  with different religions. 

 

Those that follow one way of worship don't always understand and appreciate another. We should accept that people have different interests but we don't have to share them.

 

Jol

 

Hello Jol and Tony

 

According to my (big) Oxford Dictionary of English a Broad Church (correct with capitals) is:

A tradition or group within the Anglican Church favouring a liberal interpretation of doctrine, or

A group or doctrine which allows for and caters to a wide range of opinions of people.

 

Brian

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have seen it 3 if not 4 times at public exhibitions and have never seen trains running for any length of time.

While the attention to detail is superb the basic element of being a working model railway seems from my experience to be in need of some serious attention. 

Hearing comments from other visitors I am not alone in my opinion.

Why it keeps getting invitations is beyond me.

 

I've seen Burntisland (the layout, though I've been around the real place as well) and it's stunning.

I've also been to an exhibition of Cannaletto paintings, mostly of Venice, where not one boat or gondola moved in any of them.  They were all stunning as well.

Burtisland and others like it, are works of art, they just happen to be in 3D.

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13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Of those, I have only seen Shap, at Warley. But I accept your point that large layouts need many bodies - perhaps part of the problem is that too many large exhibition layouts are in fact too large for the number of people available - so have been missing out on that element of interpretation and interaction with the public that might help draw more into the hobby. (Though that's probably reuled out for post-covid exhibiting; having all the operators on the fiddle yard side will probably be necessary to maintain social distancing from the public.)

 

If layouts are being exhibited outside their home area then there is significant cost associated with transporting them and providing overnight accommodation for the operators.  Layouts typically travel with the minimum number of operators needed to erect and operate the layout, to do otherwise places an unfair financial burden on the exhibition and may even be the difference between a layout being invited or not in the first place.

 

I very much enjoy welcoming people around the back of the layout to view and discuss the stock and the control systems, but it should be appreciated that there are associated risks and challenges.  The stock is often the creation of multiple individuals and so a visitor may wish to discuss an item that has been built by someone either away on a break or tied up operating and so they may not be available to talk at a specific moment in time.  If the visitor is willing to be flexible then it is easier to accommodate their needs.  

 

There are rare occasions where a visitor has criminal intent and so sadly all visitors, unless known to the operators, need close supervision just in case.

 

Its always worth asking but don't be offended if it is not possible to drop everything in order to talk to you at that specific moment.

 

Frank  

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Burtisland and others like it, are works of art, they just happen to be in 3D.

 

But perhaps it is exhibted as a model railway, rather than as a static cameo?

So viewers might have different expectations.

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With the talk of broad churches and 'serious' modellers looking down their noses at alternative modelling approaches, perhaps it should be remembered that criticism is a double edged sword and cuts both ways. No doubt Tony W will testify to the 'flak' and criticism he took for an article of his published in a monthly mag about his 'serious' approach and preferences.

 

Unpleasant and unnecessary critique and vitriol does not help the hobby, whoever it is from and whoever it is directed at. Maybe acceptance, although not necessarily agreement, and consideration in response would be better.

 

In the meantime I'll continue to plough my own approach, likes and standards modelling furrow. I'm happy to talk about or promote/post about it, but that doesn't give me the right to pour scorn and derision on others, even though I might not like or agree.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tony Teague said:

But perhaps it is exhibted as a model railway, rather than as a static cameo?

So viewers might have different expectations.

 

It is quite clearly intended to be an non-static model of a railway; the working features are a key part of it. If one is to compare it to an art form, it's more like an operetta.

 

Anyway, this is an interesting can of worms I've opened up and given a good stir to!

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2 hours ago, seahorse said:

I was helping on a friend's roundy-roundy and fiddle yard layout.

 

A young lad said "do you know what's wrong with this layout, mister? You've only got these two tracks at the front to see trains, and you've got all those trains at the back that we can't see. It's the wrong way round!"

 

 

 

In certain respects, that's what engine shed layout allow you to do.  There was a GWR one in the 80s I recall seeing at Warley, in the Harry Mitchell days, that was particularly impressive as it was full of kit/scratch-built non-RTR locos.

 

I've often thought an effective exhibition layout might be a large engine shed just outside a main station.  Having running lines for parade style trains to go past and shuttling of an impressive motive power collection to and from the shed.  Obviously a loco could depart the shed and then be seen a short while later hauling a train past and vice versa with the train loco coming onto shed having been seen hauling an inbound service.

 

David

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3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have seen it 3 if not 4 times at public exhibitions and have never seen trains running for any length of time.

While the attention to detail is superb the basic element of being a working model railway seems from my experience to be in need of some serious attention. 

Hearing comments from other visitors I am not alone in my opinion.

Why it keeps getting invitations is beyond me.

It 

Bernard

I think it has fantastic ambition and pulls it off to some extent. There are too many derailments and the action is rather slow/ spaced out, but when it works there are many things to marvel at. I’m really impressed by the ferry loading and unloading. That is prototypical (as I understand it) so I think it’s a bit unfair to call it a gimmick.

 

The guy out front doing the interpretation has been very good when I’ve seen it.

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I don't enjoy watching exhibitors struggle with a layout that is playing up. I have been there myself and you just wish everybody would go away and come back when the problem is sorted out. No matter how good you think you are, or how well you have prepared, bouncing a layout around in a van or car and moving it from a nice room to an exhibition hall with a wide temperature variation can catch you out.

 

The worst we had was at Ally Pally with Narrow Road, when we were near the organ and the atmosphere was full of dust, muck and moisture, which almost rained onto the layout. Once we realised that the trains were running really badly and worked out the cause, we ended up having somebody permanently cleaning track and another spending all their time cleaning loco wheels and we just about kept things going.

 

A red hot weekend at Manchester with Leighton Buzzard wasn't much fun either. Expansion caused havoc and we had shorts and switches playing up all weekend and we couldn't use quite a few sidings at all.

 

So if there is a layout that isn't working very well, I will walk on rather than watch the poor sods struggle, come back later for a second try and if it still isn't working I will hope to see it at another show.

 

The worst thing is the "helpful" punter staring at you while you suffer and telling you just what you should be doing and how their layout wouldn't fail like that!

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